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Joined: Oct 2013
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OP
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,904 Likes: 109 |
I've been posting over in dam building, but this question, I thought, might be better placed over here in soils. I need to get some grass established and quickly. The back of the dam is pretty steep, as are some of the banks. I'm trying to get wheat inside the pond, below the water level, and a mixture of wheat and fescue everywhere above the water level. The guy (neighbor) who's in the fertilizer business was going to help me put down the seed. He looked at the pond late yesterday, and said, "how do you expect anything to grow on the clay, rock exposed soil. There's no topsoil." Heck, I don't know, I was hoping he could answer that one. Any suggestions? Besides hauling in topsoil.. Thanks Jeff
9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep. RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these. I think that's about all I should put in my little pond. Otter attack in 2023
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,904 Likes: 109
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,904 Likes: 109 |
I think I'm going to buy some matts. $67 for a 4' x 100 yard roll. I could probably use 10 rolls though. Whew..
9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep. RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these. I think that's about all I should put in my little pond. Otter attack in 2023
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Joined: Aug 2002
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Hall of Fame Lunker
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Hall of Fame Lunker
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I as able to get grass started on clay by seeding, then covering with straw,and then watering perpetually.
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.
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Joined: Aug 2006
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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If you can find a truckload of composted material, it will help tremendously. But before you do, test your soil. An inexpensive soil test kit for gardens will be fine.
In rocky and hard compacted clay, it will be important to determine the pH so you can decide if it is too alkaline or too acidic. Make adjustments, respectively, with something like lime or sulfur. Put down about an inch of good organic material like compost. This time of year, seed it with winter (cereal) rye. Cover it with straw and keep it damp until it gets a good start. It won't die out over the winter. Come springtime, cut it down and overseed with a good grass seed mixture for your area. Keep it damp and keep it fertilized through early summer.
Thast should get you well on your way.
Regards, Ken
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 222
Fingerling
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Fingerling
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I ended up without topsoil also. I'm on my 3rd summer of liming, fertilizing, seeding, and strawing and it finally is looking good. Every spring the new seed would sprout and begin to grow, but without regular watering, would eventually die out. This past winter/spring/summer we've gotten plenty of rain. Rigging up a system to pump water from the pond to water the grass probably would have saved alot of time.
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Joined: Oct 2013
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OP
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,904 Likes: 109 |
I ended up without topsoil also. I'm on my 3rd summer of liming, fertilizing, seeding, and strawing and it finally is looking good. Every spring the new seed would sprout and begin to grow, but without regular watering, would eventually die out. This past winter/spring/summer we've gotten plenty of rain. Rigging up a system to pump water from the pond to water the grass probably would have saved alot of time. The watering part is what is going to get me. I don't have water running out to the pond, or electricity. Plus, I'm not there all that often. I'm guessing it'll be a long process to get grass to fill in. I just don't see a quick fix here. I can certainly get a gas powered pump, or maybe something that can run off the PTO from my tractor?? So I can water from the pond every week or two. Thanks
9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep. RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these. I think that's about all I should put in my little pond. Otter attack in 2023
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,088 Likes: 96
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Joined: Oct 2013
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Unfortunately, getting grass established on clay is a challenge. It seems like the way it works for me is I try and fail at least once, then eventually weeds and wild seasonal grass somehow gets started, then once this wild stuff is mowed down or dies down, then I can overseed the grass and get a stand on about everything. Up to that point it is hit and miss with some spots establishing and others not. Of course I don't water or cover with straw or hay, both of which will increase chances of success.
I've even had a fair amount of trouble where we put topsoil back on, limed and fertilized. Some spots still didn't "take". Perennial grass seed is just very tiny seed without much energy in that seed to help get the plant established. Roots are weak and plants are fragile to begin with. Once established the root system is very tough, but not in the beginning. Add to that the poor growing environment of solid clay, and establishment becomes a challenge.
Not what you wanted to hear, I know.
John
I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
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Joined: Aug 2006
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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I have a 2" semi-trash pump from TSC. It is pure Chinese made, but has served me well for the last three seasons. I mostly use it for watering the garden from the main pond. When I built another pond several years ago, I too had to keep the top of the dam wet. The trash pump was hooked to two large sprinklers, and it worked great for getting the grass growing. Ken
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,534 Likes: 842
Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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There a few tricks to getting grass seed to take.
Get a soil test done and fertilize/lime according to the soil test results. After the fertilizer is watered in or rained in; 1) Don't plant grass seeds more than 1/4" deep. 1/8" is even better. 2) Get good ground to seed contact. After seeding roll with a lawn roller or cultepacker. 3) Get the seeds covered with straw or erosion blankets because of #4. 4) Every time the grass seed dries out, you lose 50% of the seeds. 5) While getting the grass germinated and established, frequent short waterings every day is much better than a soaking once a week. (that goes back to #4)
I just spent all day overseeding around a clients ponds where the grass was thin. I fertilized around the ponds last week, then they had 3" of rain. We're supposed to get rain in a few days. With the sun at a lower angle in the sky, and the cool nights with dew on the ground, that helps take the place of watering. It's not a complete substitute, but it helps. The ground isn't drying out now either, so that helps get the grass germinated too.
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Joined: Aug 2009
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Lunker
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Lunker
Joined: Aug 2009
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I've had a soil test done. Tilled in the fertilizer per A&M instructions. I even tried putting out some sod this year. The Bermuda sod took in a few places but not much. I don't want to be discouraging but I have had absolutely no luck. I even built a pvc sprinkler system to water on the weekends. I wanted the grass for aesthetics but mainly to try to help clean up the muddy water. I can't leave anything undone so I'll just keep plugging away. I do think a compost mixture or topsoil with something on top to keep it moist as the others here suggested is the way to go. I'll have to try that in the spring I guess. Definitely start with a soil test.
Last edited by Cisco; 09/16/14 07:31 PM.
It's true hard work never killed anybody, but I figure, why take the chance? Ronald Reagan _______________ The good Brian
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Joined: Aug 2002
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Hall of Fame Lunker
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Hall of Fame Lunker
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As has been said here, the key for me was to keep the ground wet after seeding. And my soil has so much clay I can make pottery out of it.
Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 09/19/14 08:38 AM.
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,904 Likes: 109
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OP
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,904 Likes: 109 |
Thanks guys, for all the suggestions. I got seed spread everywhere last night, I'm dumping ten bales of straw on it this morning. At least get the dam, spillways, and waterline (proposed) covered in straw. Then I'll hope for the best. I can't water up here, especially anywhere near daily.. Every other week at best. I have a feeling I'll be doing this more than once.
Last edited by SetterGuy; 09/19/14 06:04 AM.
9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep. RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these. I think that's about all I should put in my little pond. Otter attack in 2023
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 187
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 187 |
I really love my clover. I sowed a mix of fescue and ladino clover and got excellent coverage. It is more pronounced in the spring and fall and grows where the grass won't. It also adds organic matter and a lot of nitrogen. The only drawback is it won't take the traffic the grass does. It also feeds the bees and butterflies and is a magnet for deer in late fall.
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 8,798 Likes: 68
Chairman, Pond Boss Legacy award; Moderator; field correspondent Lunker
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Chairman, Pond Boss Legacy award; Moderator; field correspondent Lunker
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 8,798 Likes: 68 |
My experience mirrors Scott's above - I reseeded significant areas front and backside of dams on 3 ponds following construction and had zero topsoil and no irrigation option at the time. Erosion mat helped keep moisture on the seedlings and my wheat and fescue performed well. Unless you can water frequently, erosion mat is worth the cost to install.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 941
Lunker
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Lunker
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 941 |
If you can find a truckload of composted material, it will help tremendously. But before you do, test your soil. An inexpensive soil test kit for gardens will be fine.
In rocky and hard compacted clay, it will be important to determine the pH so you can decide if it is too alkaline or too acidic. Make adjustments, respectively, with something like lime or sulfur. Put down about an inch of good organic material like compost. This time of year, seed it with winter (cereal) rye. Cover it with straw and keep it damp until it gets a good start. It won't die out over the winter. Come springtime, cut it down and overseed with a good grass seed mixture for your area. Keep it damp and keep it fertilized through early summer.
Thast should get you well on your way.
Regards, Ken That will make a great food plot for deer this fall
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,904 Likes: 109
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OP
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,904 Likes: 109 |
Well, I'm not going to be able to get compost hauled in. It's a great suggestion, but not something I can get done due to the location of the pond. I'm not sure how I'm going to get gravel and rock back in to it. I really like the clover idea. I'm pretty sure I'll have to reseed this more than a few times. Unless I luck out and get nice gentle rains every other day. Ha! Took a couple of pics late yesterday. This one has my 14 yr old bird dog resting up from following me around in circles for three hours while I spread hay.. Ha 10 bales was "maybe" a third of what I needed. I hate being so inexperienced at everything.
9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep. RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these. I think that's about all I should put in my little pond. Otter attack in 2023
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,312 Likes: 300
Moderator
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Moderator
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,312 Likes: 300 |
SG, maybe Highflyer will see this and offer some help. I know he built a solar watering rig, but I haven't personally seen it.
Beautiful pond BTW.
AL
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,534 Likes: 842
Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,534 Likes: 842 |
Al, as soon as I read the first sentence I thought you were talking about seeding and haying around the pond.... Setterguy: The pond looks good! How much water is in it now?? I'll bet you're going to need to talk to Rex (Rainman) about doing an alum treatment for your pond. It looks pretty turbid from the clay. Got the Fatheads in there yet??
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,312 Likes: 300
Moderator
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Moderator
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Posts: 5,312 Likes: 300 |
Brian better not be here on PB anyway. He'd better on the big plane bringing my iPhone Plus from China.
AL
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,979 Likes: 14
Ambassador Lunker
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Ambassador Lunker
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,979 Likes: 14 |
What number are they up to on the iphone? I'm still using a 4S, and it was just last week that I finally figured out how to make the screen brighter. Still don't know what that "voice control" is that rears its head every time I have it in my pocket and bend over for some reason. I'm not exactly marching on the frontlines of technological savviness.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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Joined: Jan 2014
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Joined: Jan 2014
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What number are they up to on the iphone? the iPhone 6 release date set for September 19 -- today .. lines at Apple stores.. yawn
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,312 Likes: 300
Moderator
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Moderator
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Tony this one's the 6. Having the phone talk to me isn't a problem, but pocket calling somebody certainly can be.
I used Blackberry's for years, and the old ones with the wheel on the side might have been the best phones I ever had. Most of the new phones are mini computers with the ability to talk. It used to be the other way around, and I'm not sure that wasn't far better.
AL
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Joined: Jun 2008
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Ambassador Lunker
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Ambassador Lunker
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Al, I just hate it when my phone starts talking without any deliberate intervention on my part. I don't know if it's trying to advise me of an important weather announcement, or attempting to relay information to a hostile foreign government. I have to extricate myself from whatever horrid position I've managed to wedge into in order to start that last, awkward to reach bolt, only to find out my iphone is blabbering on about face time with some guy named Condello.
I think Yolk Sac must've installed some malignant software while my back was turned at Nate's place.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Moderator
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Moderator
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Al, I just hate it when my phone starts talking without any deliberate intervention on my part. I don't know if it's trying to advise me of an important weather announcement, or attempting to relay information to a hostile foreign government. I have to extricate myself from whatever horrid position I've managed to wedge into in order to start that last, awkward to reach bolt, only to find out my iphone is blabbering on about face time with some guy named Condello.
I think Yolk Sac must've installed some malignant software while my back was turned at Nate's place.
Tony, that may have just been you hearing me scream. I just got back from getting the tractor out of the brood pond. Twice. Now, I think next year I'm going to try an aerator on areas I seed. The clay should hold water, so I'm assuming the holes will keep the seeds wetter longer if they're raked into the holes, and help to prevent them from washing away. Rye or Millet should sprout in a day or two if they get a longer initial soak. It's at least worth a shot, because all it will cost is a one day tool rental fee.
Last edited by FireIsHot; 09/19/14 01:44 PM. Reason: ADHD
AL
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Joined: Jul 2011
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Joined: Jul 2011
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PM me and I'll tell you about solar watering. It is easy, but it is some work. But I did get grass established. If you look at my older posts, its all in there.
Brian
The one thing is the one thing A dry fly catches no fish Try not to be THAT 10%
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