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O.K. wll do. I have a source in Texas to check out.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Hey, let me know if you run across a good deal on a small one. All I need is just the compressor. I can adapt whatever to my existing air line to the winter diffuser.


Surpluscenter.com has some small ones but only about a half cfm.


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Thanks! I checked them out. That 1/8 HP looks interesting and has a good price. Question is will 0.5 cfm @ 50 PSI operate a diffuser in 4 feet of water and keep a big enough hole through the ice?


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That I can't tell you, but can tell you that the pump will only see about 2 psi or a little over at the 4' depth.

The rocking piston compressors are a little overkill for that application as they are able to create higher pressures for greater depths. That one at 50 psi could pump air down to about 25' depth and would not loose a lot of efficiency doing it.

The pressure only rises to the point of overcoming the static water pressure at the depth of operation. Slightly less than .5 psi per foot of depth. Then any additional back pressure friction in the hose (minimal) or anything additional like a spring loaded check valve might add or the back pressure the diffuser creates (minimal on a membrane diffuser).

Last edited by snrub; 11/16/14 02:45 PM.

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Ran a little test in my pond with 1 inch thick ice. My conclusin is a 0.5 cfm compressor might maintain a decent area of open water, but if you plan to use it to open up a hole in thick ice, the spring thaw may happen first.


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Hey guys..sorry for my absence (hunting season and work...ok... mostly hunting season smile ). I got some pics to post and then answer a few questions.



Minnesota got to love it..from this (above) to this in 3 weeks


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Aerator off for 3 weeks and approximately 3" of ice cover



After 2 hrs of run time with the system descriped in the original post


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Cecil your LCB question:

That is my understanding. I am a mechanical guy and terrible with electronics but the guys that did my electronics told me a LCB prevents a DC pump from stalling. It is still a magic black box to me smile I have been learning using a Gast 12V diaphragm pump. I have destroyed 2 of them mechanically in the last few years but have yet to ruin one electronically. Give me a little more time... I bet I can do it wink

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Originally Posted By: canyoncreek
I was looking at your top pictures again and it looks like the air hose that goes underwater goes inside a larger pvc pipe? What is the benefits or ideas behind doing that? I have about the same size pond, a little deeper and I have about 70 feet-80 feet of weighted hose on the bottom. I can easily pull up my diffuser and run the weighted hose in pvc if it makes sense to do so.

I was thinking some day about making some type of drag that I could drop in on the long end of my mostly oblong pond, stretch rope to the other side, and use my garden tractor to drag out the leaves, non-floating FA, sticks, organic nastyness etc. What held me back is worrying about dragging up my weighted air line.

If it was encased in pvc the drag might shimmy over it better? Or maybe after being underwater for about 18 months now the sediment has buried it sufficiently?

2nd question:

I'm toying with the idea of trying to keep just a tiny circle of water open in the shallow water this winter to avoid a winter kill. I'm not looking for a large plume from a membrane aerator, just maybe 8" hole? Something like Cecil posted pictures or last winter in his pond. I'd rather not have to pull up the vertex membranes and move them twice a year to bring from deep to shallow and then vice versa in the spring.

Can I make some kind of T in the compressor box with a shutoff valve or redirector valve. Then in winter I can shift over to a new short segment hose that goes into the shallow area and run on a timer or just as needed to keep a small area opened. Since that 2nd run is short and only a couple of feet into the water I don't think I need weighted hose. The run is downhill so no fears of freezing the air line.

How to make a T with valves or shutoffs?

I bought my compressor from Sue at Vertex


I do PVC for rodent protection or some times water to land interface protection (mowers/weed whips)

Funny you should mention the winter set up. Scott hit the nail on the head. Subscribe and find out some possible solutions to your problems. Or at the least, get some ideas from it. wink

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mnfish,

Where did you get your Gast 12 volt, how many watts does it use, and the cfm or lpm?

Is that an amorphous, mono or polycrystalline solar panel? How many watts is it rated at?


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Ran a little test in my pond with 1 inch thick ice. My conclusin is a 0.5 cfm compressor might maintain a decent area of open water, but if you plan to use it to open up a hole in thick ice, the spring thaw may happen first.


What do you consider thick ice? I am using a 12V linear pump with a max 1 cfm at 3psi. I "choke" down the CFM's electronically for shallow water winter pumping.

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Name a test...Any test... You guys come up with a couple and I will run it for you. We got a test pond full of fish (YP,BG,LMB,BH )and covered in ice for the next 5 months.

My guess will be 12-16" max thickness for the ice this year (depending on the amount of snow)

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Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
mnfish,

Where did you get your Gast 12 volt, how many watts does it use, and the cfm or lpm?


Is that an amorphous, mono or polycrystalline solar panel? How many watts is it rated at?


I guess you could say I got the pump from myself. smile There are lots of distributors and you should be able to get them for around $200-$220.

It is a Gast pump and the performance curve says 1-1.2 cfm's at 3 psi. It uses 75W-80W at full speed running. I don't worry about start up with the LCB

Panels- I am testing both Amorphos, and poly. For this application, I don't see any advantage. I am using a 135W panel and a 150W panel. I am finding out there is no need for this much "over power" to compensate for the cloudy days

Last edited by mnfish; 11/17/14 11:26 PM.
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Originally Posted By: mnfish
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Ran a little test in my pond with 1 inch thick ice. My conclusin is a 0.5 cfm compressor might maintain a decent area of open water, but if you plan to use it to open up a hole in thick ice, the spring thaw may happen first.


What do you consider thick ice? I am using a 12V linear pump with a max 1 cfm at 3psi. I "choke" down the CFM's electronically for shallow water winter pumping.


I adjusted my pump to approximately 0.5 cfm, kind of, sort of... I taped a 30 gallon trash bag to the air line and set the pump at a level that would fill the bag in about 8 minutes figuring 7.5 gallons per cfm.

Using that setting, I could not open a hole in 1 inch ice with a membrane diffuser in 3 hours. Got frustrated and tweaked the pump in to full flow (4.5 cfm) to see what would happen and switched to another diffuser in another area of the pond. Blew a hole in less than 5 minutes in 1 to 2 inches of ice.


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I am finding out that slow, steady, and spread out is what keeps the water open while using minimal energy. I am using a 9" membrane diffuser with a larger hole pattern and having good results. I have not calculated or measured the CFM's but I bet they are less than 1.

I did a start up test with 3" of pretty good clear ice. I did auger holes so I'm sure that accelerated the opening of the hole. But 2hrs of run time in 3' of water the hole size was 8-10' diameter (approximate of course. Next time I will get my neighbor to swim out with a tape measure grin )

Extreme cold vs. pump life

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Originally Posted By: mnfish
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
mnfish,

Where did you get your Gast 12 volt, how many watts does it use, and the cfm or lpm?


Is that an amorphous, mono or polycrystalline solar panel? How many watts is it rated at?


I guess you could say I got the pump from myself. smile There are lots of distributors and you should be able to get them for around $200-$220.

It is a Gast pump and the performance curve says 1-1.2 cfm's at 3 psi. It uses 75W-80W at full speed running. I don't worry about start up with the LCB

Panels- I am testing both Amorphos, and poly. For this application, I don't see any advantage. I am using a 135W panel and a 150W panel. I am finding out there is no need for this much "over power" to compensate for the cloudy days


Thanks for info. The wattage, cfms, and psi you're showing jives with what I'm seeing in the catalogs for other brands of 12 volt pumps. I think I'll stay way from the Chinese made ones though for sale on Ebay. 3 month warranty and no spare parts doesn't sound good to me.

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 11/19/14 07:37 AM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Originally Posted By: mnfish
I am finding out that slow, steady, and spread out is what keeps the water open while using minimal energy. I am using a 9" membrane diffuser with a larger hole pattern and having good results. I have not calculated or measured the CFM's but I bet they are less than 1.

I did a start up test with 3" of pretty good clear ice. I did auger holes so I'm sure that accelerated the opening of the hole. But 2hrs of run time in 3' of water the hole size was 8-10' diameter (approximate of course. Next time I will get my neighbor to swim out with a tape measure grin )

Extreme cold vs. pump life


Ahhhh! Light in the darkness. You are using a relatively low flow but also using a small area diffuser, Makes perfect sense you you can poke a hole while I can't. I am using a small flow with a big area diffuser. The bubbles I produce at low flow are small and lack the energy to create a signiciant water column. The small diffuser you are using concentrates the flow to a small area and can then get a water column going to bring the warmer water up.


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If I do this I could run a 60 lpm (50 watt) linear air pump VAC to run my airlift and aeration 24/7 for my outdoor aquaponics system. 10 watts and 20 lpm for the airlift and the other 40 watts (40 lpm) for the fish tank aeration.

According to the following online calculator the the system will need a 370 watt solar array to produce about 1200 wh/day, an inverter and 417 Ah battery pack to store a reserve of 3 days of reserve power which comes to 5kWh.

Cost is estimated at $1,083 to $1,624.

http://solarelectricityhandbook.com/solarcalculator.aspx

Sound about right?

It would seem I could reduce the price considerably by reducing the amount of amp hours needed and subsequeny battery size by making the system a fallback system vs. an off grid. (The amount of battery needed for for 3 day backup and 5kWh for off grid is about $1000.00. If the grid is involved it would seem only enough to store somewhere over 1200 wh/day from the solar array would be needed. This would reduce aH and battery size needed. I think?

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 11/20/14 11:59 AM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Update on solar aerator...Very cold temps last couple of weeks (below zero most of the days). Aerator continues to pump through out the day but not enough water movement to keep ahead of the frigged temps. Approximately 4-6" of ice formed over the diffuser area over the last couple of weeks. With warmer temps, drilled holes, 4 hrs to create the pictured opening. Running the pump at approximately half speed all winter. Thin ice sign is being ironic as it looks like it fell through smile




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Thanks for sharing!


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Bitter cold here today and a great day to work, inside, on my DYI next generation direct solar shallow pond aerator. I am obsoleting the great big box holding the electronics,pump, and solar panel. Miniaturizing the electronics and going to a post support for panel, electronics, and pump. (once the ground thaws, pics will follow). This system will be placed next to a pond and one system right in the water of cattail type slough. Not sure if the electronics are right yet, as I'm waiting for my last connectors, but it sure has been fun learning!!! First test later this week.





Solar panel plugs into the connector on the left and the cable on the right plugs into the pump box (not designed yet)

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Testing update: Speed control for winter time aeration works. On to compressor run timer and directional feeder plug in. The system runs on 150W panel and a watch battery. If these ad on's work and a little more reliability testing...I think I will be retiring my two windmills.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvPjIKcmc3o

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Pretty cool mnfish!

What's the reason for the speed control?

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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
Thanks! I checked them out. That 1/8 HP looks interesting and has a good price. Question is will 0.5 cfm @ 50 PSI operate a diffuser in 4 feet of water and keep a big enough hole through the ice?


The typical 9" membrane diffusers require between .5 and 4-5 cfm and .5-5 psi (at the membrane) to operate properly. Under .5 cfm airflow or under .5 psi at the membrane will not open all diffuser pores and over the max rates will "Flex" the diffuser for cleaning the slits...extended over capacities will blow out the diffuser membranes.



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Originally Posted By: JKB
Pretty cool mnfish!

What's the reason for the speed control?


Thank you sir! Speed control is for trying to maximize pump life.

To All... please feel free to challenge my limited thinking....Assuming the same shape, depth profile, water conditions and such, A guy aerating an 1/8 acre pond could run the pump at half the speed of a guy aerating 1/4 acre pond and have the same aeration but double his mechanical pump life (assuming linearity). In direct pumping, I am assuming the pump will run a certain amount of hours each day. If the pump runs on average for 7 hrs/ day but I only need 3.5 hrs for proper aeration, I cut the speed of the pump in half; keeping the same overall aeration( 7hrs of run time) with 1/2 the mechanical pumping cycles.

Any other thoughts, ideas? Seriously, If you got something I want to read it. You can't hurt my feelings. This learning is for everyone!!

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