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#38458 - 09/30/05 04:27 PM Re: Ken's hatchery Recommendations
Bill Cody Offline
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GG Man - Deb, Fertilization of ponds is a method to increase natural productivity and increase or enhance the food chain which provides more natural food for the fish, thus more growth or fish biomass is realized, supported or obtained. Fertilizations by increasing the plankton component of the water column, reduces sunlight penetration which inhibits growth of submerged rooted vegetation on the pond bottom. Fertilization produces somewhat similar results as feeding fish food and using pond dye (Aquashade). Many other brand name dyes are mearly make up and do not adequately suppress rooted vegetation. A search of previous posts will provide much more discussion about these topics.
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#38459 - 09/30/05 04:43 PM Re: Ken's hatchery Recommendations
Debra King Offline
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Posts: 556
Loc: South Ga.
Thank you Bill! We opt for the feed and dye (not die ;\) ) method. In our experience this has aided in growth of the fish without an overabundance in growth of vegetation. But I am speaking of only what I have learned here and experienced with our clients. You all have by far more experience with this than I do. What, is any, are the downsides of fertilizers? Are they considered chemicals, and if so what is their environmental impact? Can you site some chemical compositions for me to research this weekend please?
Thank you for your patience with my questioning. I am learning alot from all of this.

Deb
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#38460 - 09/30/05 08:26 PM Re: Ken's hatchery Recommendations
Bill Cody Offline
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Deb, Everything you do to a pond has pros and cons (downsides). To be fully aware of them, One has to be knowledgable enough to understand the implications of action and reaction of the aquatic communities (pond ecosystem,) to the "stimulus or stimuli".
Fertilization can be in the form of natural or artificial; organics vs inorganics. Everything natural or manmade when it is added naturally (wind or runoff) or added by humans to a pond filled with "clean" water or if in pristine condition is some form of pollution to that pond. It is a matter of degree.

Everything organic breaks down into the basic chemicals (elements) thus technically most everything added to a pond is / are chemicals in one form or another. Their environmental impact in regards to "fish ponds" basically depends what the goals are for the pond. Here we frequently talk about the importance of goals of the pond owner.

The basic chemical compositon of inorganic fertilizers is various compounds consisting primarily of nitrogen, phosphorus, and potash. Sometimes other additives for the various macro and micro nutrients are present.

If you have time, I suggest that you review many of the posts in the forum heading of - Fertilizer. If you read all of them you will no doubt be dizzy trying to assimilate all of the information.

Since you work at the hatchery, I am sure that "Ken and company" have heavily indoctrinated you, and understandably so, with their philosophies of pond management. This web site will often present both sides of many pond situations, and when viewed and studied with an open mind, they will maybe broaden your outlook and understanding about various types & methods of pond management.

In reference to your question regarding the impacts of adding inorganic fertilizer and for example; the "feed and dye method" and associated stocking rates recommended by "Kens" puts tremendous impacts upon an enclosed or contained aquatic system. In just one aspect alone, consider the amount of high nutrient manure that all those fish daily produce in a pond with no flusher. Something has to happen to all that continual manure accumulation while the artificial dye is inhibiting natural photosynthetic, heterotrophic, and bacterial processes; something has to be dramatically impacted in the whole process.
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#38461 - 09/30/05 11:29 PM Re: Ken's hatchery Recommendations
Debra King Offline
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"The diversity on this forum, just as diversity in nature, is healthy and beneficial. Open mindedness leads to learning." (Quote by Bill Cody)

Above quote duly noted, as is the last post (in great comparison). True I work for Ken, but I have stated more than once of my eagerness to learn from this forum. This is a new subject for me (and I admit I am jumping in with both feet). So if everyone would be so kind as to teach and not lecture (there is a difference), I would be much obliged.
Bill you have opened my eyes a wee bit more, but my innate ablity for stubbornness still keeps me leary of but one's theory. This might yet again be a thread with no ending due to opinions (which are healthy), but I still welcome the knowledge that you and others in your field have gained through your decades of experience. Consider me your sponge!

Deb
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#38462 - 10/03/05 10:33 AM Re: Ken's hatchery Recommendations
Greg Grimes Offline
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Deb, I have been out of town, trying to catch up. I combine learned knowledge from school lectures, seminar, etc and seem to learn more OTJ. SO preaching to the choir on that one. I will give quick answer on fertilizer b.c others have already said most of what I would have said.

You did admit you do not suggest ag lime. Is anyone else reading this?

YOu can look into diff in testing, etc. but the core of diff is you recommendation on the products vs. ag lime. Ag lime will do the same thing in the long run raise the hardness and alkalinity, it is slow but last much longer. Based on cost is 10 x's or more less $.

I'm not trying to slam you, really. Just this is not scientifically based at all to not use this source. It seems to me to be money driven and this is what I get upset about. I make recommendation and yep make a living doing it but sell based on sciene not what aids my pocket book. Proof me and all others that use ag lime wrong that it is not the way to go.

Ross, yep I use the .16 sulfric acid catridges unless I know it is high then use the 1.6 to save reagent, good to see not the only one who does that.
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#38463 - 10/03/05 11:36 AM Re: Ken's hatchery Recommendations
Bill Duggan Offline
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Greg you might be right but I have always wondered in Ag lime is cheaper. BTW I use Ag lime. Lets use my pond as an example 3.5 acres in middle Georgia. On average wouldn't a new pond of that size and location take 10-12 tons of Ag lime. What would some one charge to bring that out and spread it with a boat? On average how long would it last until you would have to reapply. I guess in seven or less years.
With hydrated lime if it took 10 50 lbs a year(yes I'm guessing)at $10.00 a bag(I checked) over seven years you have spent $700.00 liming vs the upfront cost which I am guessing is much higher.

Educate me where is my thinking wrong

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#38464 - 10/03/05 12:20 PM Re: Ken's hatchery Recommendations
Greg Grimes Offline
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BD, great example.

3.5 acres in GA usualy recommend 4 tons with low alk so 14 tons, last about 6 years (depends of course on flow and this will effect hydrated also so let's use 6 years). It will cost to have it spread about $50/ton for labor and lime so $700 total in 6 years.

Ok with hydrated lime to raise to good alk levels takes about 100 lbs/acre so 7 bags x $10 equals $70. So how often? At least three times/year. So $210 x 6 years equals $1260

So $1260 vs. $700 not too bad. But wait. This does not figure your time in there for 18 times having to put out the stuff. Another point ever put it out? Very caustic where long shelves and mask.

Also hydrated lime can cause fish kill, the pond guides will warn you about this. Ken has a good formula with the buffer to prevent this. So based on Ken's prices if I may add $13.50 (discount rate) for buffer to help prevent fish kill from hydrated lime (is this right, Deb?). THis would make it another $1701 in example or $2961 for same period of time as ag lime that cost $700.

Again I just would rather do it "right" even it cost more one time in 5-6 years than every few months. Make sense Bill, others?
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#38465 - 10/03/05 12:29 PM Re: Ken's hatchery Recommendations
Bill Duggan Offline
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Yes, I was off two ways, first I thought buying and spreading Ag lime was more than $50.00 per ton(what are other seeing) and it did not take the amount of hydrated lime you quoted.

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#38466 - 10/03/05 12:53 PM Re: Ken's hatchery Recommendations
Meadowlark Offline
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Registered: 03/09/04
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Bill,

As a reference point, this summer I bought 26 tons of ag. lime for about $35 per ton spread on pastures, hay fields and ponds. I agree with Greg that it lasts at least 5 years in ponds. If spread in your drainage into the pond, even more effective...helps the pasture and the ponds at the same time.

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#38467 - 10/03/05 04:42 PM Re: Ken's hatchery Recommendations
Debra King Offline
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Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 556
Loc: South Ga.
Greg,
Quick question (and no I still do not have all your answers, but I have been moved by this entire forum to do some lengthy research so sit tight and be patient).

In regards to all of this liming, how would you treat a 1 acre pond with a pH of 8.5 to 9.0 with a poor total hardness reading? Would you still throw in 1000-2000 lbs ag lime?

BTW if you did not get a chance to read a prior post, I did discover we measure in gpg and not ppm. Some nice gentleman put a conversion chart in that thread for comparing the two. That will explain why you were so outraged at our numbers of 120 plus. Like I said before, I think we are on the same page (although you seem to have read further down).
Anyway, I am still reading posts, catalogs, and web pages trying to learn all I can. Appreciate all the brain stimulation!

Deb
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#38468 - 10/03/05 05:00 PM Re: Ken's hatchery Recommendations
Greg Grimes Offline
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Deb, if ph was that high maybe not, what time of day was that reading taken. I base it more on total alkalinity readings becasue that is what controls diurnal pH fluctations. If low (<15 ppm)I would recommend more than the amount stated. More like 8,000 lbs/acre like in above example.

I did see the GpG but still does not change recommendations, right? Who came up with reporting this way? If one of your clients wants a second opinion they could not get one if it is gpg, why not convert to ppm so it is jives with everyone else out there checking pond water quality? I think I know why you report it this way it goes right along with why you recommend the products that only raise alkalinity for a short time. Are you consulting Ken on these talks here? I would Love to hear his comments on the subject of CalPlus vs. ag lime. I do appreciate you responding.
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#38469 - 10/03/05 05:10 PM Re: Ken's hatchery Recommendations
Debra King Offline
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Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 556
Loc: South Ga.
Greg our test comes straight from Hach Labs.

Let me simplify the question, if you add 1000-2000 lbs of ag lime (attempting to raise total alkalinity) into a pond with a pH reading (midday) of 8.5 to 9.0, wouldn't you run a high risk of killing the fish. How many points does 1000 lbs ag lime raise pH?

As for Ken and the difference of questions, I have been taught here at the hatchery and am furthering my education through this forum, so no I have not asked him. That would defeat my purpose of comparative analysis.

Deb
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#38470 - 10/03/05 05:12 PM Re: Ken's hatchery Recommendations
Bill Duggan Offline
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OK what gpg

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#38471 - 10/03/05 05:40 PM Re: Ken's hatchery Recommendations
Greg Grimes Offline
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Deb, ok I understand it is Hach but they allow you to convert o ppm and everyone does that to compare apples to apples. So if you want to look into this tell me in ppm what you desire so we can compare with other known recommndations on lime applicatiosn, etc.

Ok if you are honestly learning here, no 2,000 lbs will not change pH really at all. Deb When you lime a pond you really are not liming the pond but the pond bottom. THis is why most everyone recommends ag lime vs. hydrated. It will slowly over months rasie the pH slightly but more importantly rasie the alkalinity. I can explain more but loading up to head to lake in SC at 5:00 am.
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#38472 - 10/03/05 07:56 PM Re: Ken's hatchery Recommendations
Ross Baker Offline
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Registered: 06/16/05
Posts: 173
Loc: Georgetown, TX
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bill Duggan:
OK what gpg
Grains per gallon. 1 mg/l or 1 ppm = 17 grains per gallon.
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#38473 - 10/03/05 08:11 PM Re: Ken's hatchery Recommendations
Bill Cody Offline
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Deb - pH should not be normally used to determine the amount of adjustment needed for carbonate additions (alkalinity /hardness) because pH can fluxuate quite a bit during a 24 hour period, depending on several water quality parameters or influencing factors. For one, the amount of pH fluxuation will depend on alkalinity of the water (buffering) and the amount or density of plant life present, usu phytoplankton. This is especally true in waters with low alkalinity and abundant phytoplankton. Noticable swings of pH can occur in these waters. During daylight (esp more so w/ sunshine) plants absorb CO2 from the water, Hydrogen ions are bound or lost and water pH goes up (losing hydrogen ions). Obviously the density of the phytoplankton at time of measurement can have a big affect with this. It is important to note here that the water turbidity due to non-phytoplankton items is an important factor also in this AND a secchi disk reading may not be measuring total phytoplankton density but it could be easily indicating other suspended solids in the water column. At night or on cloudy days plants can have a net release of CO2 (produce more than they absorb) and this forms carbonic acid; in this reaction H ions are released and pH goes down.

Another cause for pH swings is decompostional processes i.e. denitrification of nitrate to molecular nitrogen and reducion of sulfate to sulfide, both result in a net loss of hydrogen ions and pH goes up. This may be an important role in ponds with heavy feeding and manure production where lots of decompostion needs to occur.

In eutrophic conditions more CO2 is produced due to all the extra biological activity and thus pH can have more rapid changes compared to a pond that is not as nutrient rich or organically loaded.

Tendency and causes for pH to fluxuate can be caused by numerous conditions and using pH allows more room for errors or improper conclusions. Alkalinity is a more stable parameter and it typically fluxuates very little over a 24 hr period, when considering varying weather, time of day or "pond" conditions, thus alkalinity is typically used as the standard to determine amount of carbonate or hydroxide materials needed to adjust the water hardness / alkalinity /buffering capacity.
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#38474 - 10/05/05 05:19 PM Re: Ken's hatchery Recommendations
Dave Davidson Offline
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Registered: 04/22/02
Posts: 1892
Loc: Hurst & Bowie Texas
I've been rethinking my previous post on fertilizer and believe I ought to modify it. It's not for me because I don't need it and if I take care of my land, I don't have to fertilize it. Some land that I recently purchased had been heavily fertilized and now will only grow weeds. It will take a while to correct. My ponds don't need it and in my arid climate, it would be disastrous.

However, there are places with beautiful grass that have virtually no protien. Cows can eat all day and lose weight. There are also places in pine tree country that need additives to produce fish. They also get the adequate rainfall that I don't.

OK, I feel better now.

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#38475 - 10/08/05 08:47 PM Re: Ken's hatchery Recommendations
Bob Lusk Offline
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Loc: Whitesboro, Texas
One important point totally missed in this thread...you aren't comparing 'apples to apples.' Aglime is naturally mined calcium carbonate, in ground form from stone. Its pH is something less than 8.2. So, that product cannot raise the pH of any body of water higher than what it is. Hydrated lime is Calcium hydroxide. Its pH is way too high, somewhere around 13. It is volatile, and artificially raises the pH. That's not the problem in ponds. Alkalinity is the problem. Hydrated lime cannot raise the alkalinity. Alkalinity is a measure of carbonates. So, to properly improve acidic ponds, aglime is the tool of choice.
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#38476 - 10/08/05 09:29 PM Re: Ken's hatchery Recommendations
Debra King Offline
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Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 556
Loc: South Ga.
And this proves why you all do pond management, and I dissect fish for a living. Wow! Please keep the information coming because I am most certainly taking it in.

Thanks a bunch,

Deb
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#38477 - 10/08/05 09:31 PM Re: Ken's hatchery Recommendations
Debra King Offline
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Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 556
Loc: South Ga.
Bob if you are still online please check your mail!

Deb
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#38478 - 10/08/05 10:02 PM Re: Ken's hatchery Recommendations
Bill Cody Offline
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I want to clarify and elaborate on Bob's previous commment. The part of his post I am emphasizing is below:

 Quote:
Hydrated lime is Calcium hydroxide. Its pH is way too high, somewhere around 13. It is volatile, and artificially raises the pH. That's not the problem in ponds. Alkalinity is the problem. Hydrated lime cannot raise the alkalinity. Alkalinity is a measure of carbonates.
For this information I had to go "to the book" and I used my textbook for a graduate school water chemistry course - Chemistry For Sanitary Engineers by Sawyer & McCarty - McGraw-Hill Series.


I propose that hydroxides do contribute to alkalinity of a pond. My reasoning follows:
The book states -"Although many materials may contribute to the alkalinity of a water, the major portion of the alkalinity in natural waters is caused by three major classes of materials which may be ranked in order of their association with high pH values as follows: 1) hydroxide, 2) carbonates, and 3) bicarbonates. For most paractical purposes, alkalinity due to other materials in natural waters is insignificant and may be ignored." "Under certain conditions natural waters may contain appreciable amounts of carbonate and hydroxide alkalinity. This condition is particularly true in surface waters where algae are flourishing." "The algae remove carbon dioxide, free and combined, from the water to such an extent that pH values of 9 to 10 are often obtained."

"...... alkalinity is thus a measure of the buffer capacity.... . Alkalinity is measured volumetrically by titration ..... . The amount of acid required to react with the hydroxide, carbonate and bicarbonate represents the total alkalinity." If necessary the hydroxide, carbonate and bicarbonate alkalinities can be calculated.

As an interesting side note, the removal of carbon dioxide by algae tends to cause a shift in the forms of alkalinity present from bicarbonate to carbonate and from carbonate to hydroxide. During these changes the total alkalinity will REMAIN CONSTANT.

This is interesting stuff if you are concerned with the details of alkalinity.
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#38479 - 10/08/05 10:32 PM Re: Ken's hatchery Recommendations
Bob Lusk Offline
Editor, Pond Boss Magazine
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Registered: 04/10/02
Posts: 3106
Loc: Whitesboro, Texas
Cool beans, Cody. As I understand it, phytoplankton depends on carbonates..that's been my primary focus. Thanks for the clarification. Now, I'm compelled to learn more about alkalinity.
As usual, you are the man.
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He can teach to catch fish...

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#38480 - 10/09/05 11:05 AM Re: Ken's hatchery Recommendations
ewest Offline
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Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19590
Loc: Miss.
Here is some info on the topic ( first link ) and water quality matters ( second link) for "forum members" -- no implication here that you Bob or Bill don't know this material already.

http://srac.tamu.edu/tmppdfs/7107322-464fs.pdf

http://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm?catid=25

ewest
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#38481 - 10/09/05 11:06 AM Re: Ken's hatchery Recommendations
Greg Grimes Offline
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Bob, thanks for post I though I explained that but once again you did a beter job. Have you ever used hydrated lime. We try not too but have on occasion where near impossible to get ag lime in. I understand the chemistry mentioned by BC (good stuff) but can tell you in one case... when applied at a rate of 75 lbs/acre it rasied hardness from 12 to 36 and alkalinity from 10 to 28 ppm, 5 days after application.

However and this is my point with Deb 2 big rains and one month later back down to 18 hardnes and 16 alkalinity. So in 95% of cases ag lime is way to go. This is my "beef" with the Recommendations provided by Ken they do not last and over time cost much more money and energy. Your thoughts here, Bob?

Deb what is the chemical compostion of your "calicum" and why is bufferin necessary? You claimed under GG thread the products last as long as ag lime explain please.

On another note I like the way the GG thread is headed back to science. However when put in a defense measure by comments made I have to make remarks back. This is not good business and know one cares to read it so I will really try to just let it go. I want to say somehting else but will not. Deb I will not bring up past clients claims if you will simply answer questions without hidden agendas to get more mgmt. thanks
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#38482 - 10/09/05 01:31 PM Re: Ken's hatchery Recommendations
Bill Duggan Offline
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Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 625
Loc: Flatrock, Ga.
Greg that last sentence to me reads that you will take the high road after you get to take one last cheap shot. Did I miss something.
BTW used the last of your fertilizer yesterday good stuff

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