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#383508 07/28/14 08:03 PM
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Hello all! Let me start by saying my interest is purely academic and I love reading all of your posts.

Heres my question:
When researching here and other places kn the web I find conflicting infomation on stocking ratios for a LMB/BG BOW. Some people here say (as well as show success) that you want a diverse forage base with BG in all sizes and other forage like threadfin shad with a ratio of 30 bass and up to 2000 BG per acre. Others say you want a 100 LMB and 1000 BG per acre and they should all go in as fingerlings or bad things will happen.

This is very confusing. Lets just say for hypothetical purposes a man was stocking a new BOW that was 10 acres, in Texas, and it had all the bells and whistles like a good feeding program, fertilization, ariation, and good water quality. What would the stocking options be for this BOW as far as forage stocking options and the LMB?


Thank you all for your insite.

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Quote:
When researching here and other places kn the web I find conflicting infomation on stocking ratios for a LMB/BG BOW.

....

This is very confusing.


It comes back to the Pond Boss himself (Bob Lusk), from the Texoma region of Texas. If you were to call Bob, one of the firs things he would ask was -- what are your goals?

It is a strong long-term planning process to make a successful fishery. First, you need to know what your want from your Body Of Water (BOW).

We have a wide ranging group of fisheries management people here on the website. For me personally, I have two fishing ponds, but both are fairly similar, but yet quite different. One is mainly a Pure Strain Big Bluegill pond, and the other is Big Hybrid Bluegill/Channel Catfish pond. But, I also have a number of other fish types in these two ponds, and there are a number of smaller ponds in between these two.

Ask a lot more questions so we can help.

Regards,
Ken


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I guess my main question is what are the down sides to establishing a forage base of BG for a year before adding LMB fingerlings? It seems some have had great success with thier LMB ponds by doing this, while other sites (mainly hatcheries) insist you stock LMB and BG all at once in the propotions they recommend at small sizes or your pond will be a complete failure.

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I believe some people are having great luck with stocking BG and let them reproduce for a year or two then stocking LMB. I think Greg Grimes is using a stocking ratio of 20 BG to 1 LMB. Maybe he will chime in.

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what is a pure strain big BG? By the name, I am guessing they produce big BG?
Would like to get some of those for my own pond
thanks

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Like Ken said, defined goals drive the stocking ratios. To an extent, they also drive the type of BG stocked. Location in the country is more of a determining factor in what types of BG are stocked, and the timing of the LMB stocking.

Up North, there's the possibility of the BG stunting or out producing the LMB if the BG are stocked too far in advance of the LMB.

There are 3 basic Bluegill types that are stocked in ponds.
1) Northern Bluegills (BG)
2) Coppernose Bluegills (CNBG)
3) Hybrid Bluegills (HBG)

If you are in Texas, you can stock any or all of the 3 types.

The more food that a LMB has to eat, the faster it will grow. The less that it has to chase it's food, the faster it will grow. LMB do the best if they have a fish that is approimately 1/4 to 1/3 it's body length to eat. More calories in for calories expended catching it. I've heard of ponds down South being stocked with a LMB/BG or CNBG ratio of 1/30.


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Timing of placement of species also plays a role.

The fish farm that sold me my fish recommended 500 BG per acre and 100 LMB (for my specific case). Which is way LMB heavy by all accounts here on PBF (and may prove to be that way in the end).

BUT....... the BG were placed in late March (were provided feed to enhance growth and increase spawn) and had at least one spawn by the time I placed the LMB fingerlings in November. So in essence I had 500 4-5" BG and how ever many they managed to spawn and survive small fingerlings by the time the LMB were introduced. So I potentially had more BG at the time of stocking LMB than another person would have had stocking 1500 BG per acre and 100 LMB stocked at the same time.

Being LMB "heavy" will also allow me to take more LMB for table fair earlier. They are about9-10" now and I figure will take out a significant number next year as they get big enough to eat. Had I put only 25 or 50 per acre, would have wanted to wait at least another year before "catch and eat". This also could come into play. How quickly a person wants to start "harvest". A "catch and release" person that wants huge LMB for the fun of fishing might have wanted a lot lower number of initial LMB stocking. I told my "fish guy" I wanted a "balanced" pond with lots of catchable fish but large size was not a particular goal. I wanted to "catch something" when I threw a line in big enough to eat. I used his advice on stocking rates based on what I told him I wanted and the timing of introduction of fish (he was planning on waiting a year to introduce the LMB but I ended up feeding the BG and FHM and had good spawns, and on that information he suggested that going ahead with the LMB a little earlier would be fine. Originally I told him I probably would not feed, but in the end I did as it was addictive once I started).

While I'm still a novice at this stuff, it seems to me stocking rates need to be tailored to an individuals specific needs and wants based on his location, situation and goals for the fishery. And it is going to vary a lot from pond to pond because of this.

Last edited by snrub; 07/29/14 05:57 PM.

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Thank you all for the replies!
So from what I gather here, in a trophy LMB BOW you will typically see a bit smaller BG than say a balanced fishery?

Essup I have read through alot of your posts and I just want to say the fish in your pond look amazing! The few pics I have seen of your LMB and CC showed prize fish in my opinion. My question to you is, whats your strategy (stocking and harvesting wise) and whats the condition of your BG?


Im sorry if it seems like these are the same old questions you guys always get, but the more I read here the more I want to know.

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James:

I'm having a hard time keeping a healthy BG population in my pond. There are 2 reasons. 1) LOTS of predators - the LMB, and the CC. 2) My water level varies a LOT from spring to fall, so the smaller fish don't have enough cover to hide in. My water level can drop 6', but a 50" swing is more common. When the water level drops, the predators have a field day with the smaller fish. Like swimming in a bathtub. I need to put more cover in my pond, at different depths, but the problem with that is when the water level drops, then there's a LOT of stuff sticking up out of the water, or completely out of the water.

In my pond, in the past 4 years, I've stocked well over 3,000 BG of varying sizes. They are few and far between. I am in the process of yanking out every male LMB that I can identify, and I have removed about 35# of LMB from my pond this year. I still have at least one male LMB in there, because I have a school of YOY LMB swimming around. I do have SMB in the pond, and there are some males too, so its yet to be determined whether the YOY are straight LMB or meanmouth bass. (LMBxSMB)

I feed approx. 50# of AM600 a month too.

Right now I see some BG that are 2"-4", but I haven't actually had the time to do any angling for BG. I have seem some 6"-8" BG picking up pellets too. Maybe instead of trying to catch BG I should drop the Fyke Net in my pond and do a sample? I might catch some of the CC that way too. Hmmmmmmmm......... I think that's a plan! grin That's the problem with being in the business, everybody else's pond gets worked on while mine gets shoved to the back of the line all the time!.


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Thank you for your reply.

There was another member with a blue name that has a nice thread on his pond. I believe his name was Ewest, but I cant be sure. He posted some very nice LMB that were estimated at 9+ pounds on the third year after stocking. While reading his thread I noticed he had a very low stocking rate of LMB in his ten acre pond but he had high BG population from stocking them early.

This pond came to mind today when I was reading an artical written by Lusk. Long story short, a customer had high forage population and low LMB and the BG were eating all the LMB young. The bass had zero recruitment and the customer eventually had to stock more to correct the issue.
This problem seems like a much easier fix than a bass heavy problem, but I still wonder how often this happens.

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Originally Posted By: jamesyarbrough
Thank you for your reply.

There was another member with a blue name that has a nice thread on his pond. I believe his name was Ewest, but I cant be sure. He posted some very nice LMB that were estimated at 9+ pounds on the third year after stocking. While reading his thread I noticed he had a very low stocking rate of LMB in his ten acre pond but he had high BG population from stocking them early.

This pond came to mind today when I was reading an artical written by Lusk. Long story short, a customer had high forage population and low LMB and the BG were eating all the LMB young. The bass had zero recruitment and the customer eventually had to stock more to correct the issue.
This problem seems like a much easier fix than a bass heavy problem, but I still wonder how often this happens.


Overpopulation of LMB happens all the time, and it's a constant battle from a management standpoint. If sterile LMB were available, they would sell out annually. The ability to stock limited numbers of LMB in a smaller pond, and know that the numbers that were stocked wouldn't change, would be a game changer.


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Based on this thread and other threads I have read previously, sounds like my 100 LMB per acre stocking rate calls for removing about every LMB I can catch next year, or I will have Esshup's problem pronto. Thinking I'm going to be eating a lot of small LMB fish next year, and that is not a bad thing.


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snrub, I stocked 35 feed trained LMB in the pond, and when I did, I tagged each and every one of them. Some have had the tags fall out over the years, but there is still a mark right under their dorsal fin where the tag was.

For the past 2 years the pond rule was "remove every CC caught and every LMB that doesn't have a tag". Now it's changed to "remove every LMB under 16 inches and if it's over 16 inches without a tag or evidence of a tag". I don't care if the LMB is 2" or 20" long. In the spring, I also sight fish when the LMB are spawning and will remove every male that I see on a bed. Next spring I will also remove every male SMB that I see on a bed.


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Ok, thanks for that info.

From my reading prior to knowing about PBF, it seemed 100 LMB per acre was a common stocking rate and the publications were saying catch and release only for the first three years.

From what you (and others) on this forum are telling me, that would likely be a disaster with very bad LMB overpopulation.

I think some of those old published recommendations are years old and do not incorporate what has been learned in more recent years.


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Originally Posted By: snrub
Ok, thanks for that info.

From my reading prior to knowing about PBF, it seemed 100 LMB per acre was a common stocking rate and the publications were saying catch and release only for the first three years.

From what you (and others) on this forum are telling me, that would likely be a disaster with very bad LMB overpopulation.

I think some of those old published recommendations are years old and do not incorporate what has been learned in more recent years.


Actually, that all depends. Remember that you want to keep the stockers in the pond as brood stock and remove the offspring for eating. If you've stocked fingerling LMB, it might take 2- 3 years for them to be large enough to spawn.


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I've tried this several times and only accomplished it once. And, that once is, by definition, temporary. It's also no fun for the land owner. The guy told me that he would never do it again.

The first step is to quit thinking about bass and concentrate on the environment that big fish need. That includes forage, water quality, and LUCK. Oh yeah, cash, commitment, and the right amount of rain helps.

Start with a 2 to 5 acre pond. Add BG or CNBG with good genetics for growth. Stock about 2,000 per acre and pour the feed to them. Fish for them if you like. After about 3 years, if the BG are growing well, add about 25 to 50 all female bass per acre with proven genetics. Ignore the bass for 5 years while continually checking on and tweaking the forage and environment. Even then, practice catch and release.

Yep, no fun atall.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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As mentioned suggested stocking ratios of forage to LMB will vary depending on ones goals or the goals of the person advising you or selling you the fish. High BG:LMB ratio usually results in lots of or an over population of little BG and big fat fast growing bass - the road to trophy bass. Fewer BG and more bass per acre such as 500:100 is a path toward larger panfish and general bass fishing with a good number of all sizes. This path is where stocking bass early with BG or soon after bluegill is mostly used.

Feeding the fish and adjusting the numbers can help change the balance of BG to LMB and their average sizes.

James Y says "...a customer had high forage population and low LMB and the BG were eating all the LMB young. The bass had zero recruitment and the customer eventually had to stock more to correct the issue." This does happen. When BG numbers become more toward over abundant their food items become limiting which results in slow BG growth and lots of very hungry small aggressive fish. These small fish will surround bass nests and rob eggs and eat fry thus limiting bass recruitment,, and in severe overpopulation conditions there is no bass recruitment. The bass in these ponds tend to be few in number and quite large. Having to add bass into a pond like this would be one way to grow large bass and not worry about bass overpopulation.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 08/01/14 08:32 AM.

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Just got back to this thread (internet down, grrrrr).

Thanks for the information all three of you. From Bill's remarks, sounds like the guy who sold and delivered me the fish did ok on his recommendation, as I told him I was not after trophies but a good pan fishing pond. 500-100 is what he delivered to me. 500 (per acre) BG in early spring then 100 LMB in very late fall.

I've sure got the BG recruitment now, that is definite. And tons of FHM also. LMB are about 9" a month ago and looked healthy, although I did not weigh any for relative weight.


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Depending on location and goals the number can range from 5 to 1 BG to LMB to 30 to 1 BG to LMB. Timing is different also on when to stock which species based on location. If you are going to use advanced size stocker fish the numbers , timing and dynamics also change.

















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