Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
Shotgun01, Dan H, Stipker, LunkerHunt23, Jeanjules
18,451 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics40,900
Posts557,086
Members18,452
Most Online3,612
Jan 10th, 2023
Top Posters
esshup 28,414
ewest 21,474
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 15,110
Who's Online Now
6 members (Dave Davidson1, Fishingadventure, PRCS, Sunil, Theo Gallus, BillyE), 760 guests, and 274 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 143
captwho Offline OP
OP Offline
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 143
Hello all. This is my first post but have been reading intently to learn as much as possible. First, shout out to Bill Cody who has been more than generous with his time and advice. I have been reading and don't see anyone with ponds west of Texas. Apparently a pond in Arizona is a rare thing and a pond expert is even rarer. I am building a 1 acre pond approximately 20 feet deep. It will be a combination rain fed and well fed pond. I want it to be a combination swimming pond as well as fishing. I don't want to feed as this is a cabin property and only go up once or twice a month. It has a 6500 ft elevation with summer temps that can reach as high as 90 degrees but more often high 70s low 80s. Everyone here is telling me that FHM,BG,LMB,CC combo is my only option with some RBT sprinkled in. Will the RBT be able to survive against the onslaught of hungry LMB? I am filling now and the pond is about 6 ft deep and I'm going to put 50 lbs FHM in next week to get them started and then add 50 lbs of RBT next month. Will I have a good fishery if I don't add any other fish? Any recommendation of species and quantities would be greatly appreciated as well as any other advice for a new pond owner.
Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance!
Also, any recommended plants as well!


"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."
Winston Churchill
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,028
Likes: 274
D
Moderator
Lunker
Online Content
Moderator
Lunker
D
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,028
Likes: 274
Welcome Capt. Using a well tells me that you are in high desert country. Where specifically? How much snow melt can you expect? Will it ice over during the winter? How long will the ice cover, if any, remain?

I think that 50 lbs of FHM and 50 lbs of Trout is going to be disastrous. I can see maybe a maximum of ten pounds, once it is full, of FHM. They are spawning machines that can consume a lot of oxygen.

Well water is not oxygenated so I would stock nothing until I knew about my water quality. Are you planning to oxygenate? The minnows will need algae to eat.

I don't know anything about trout so will leave that to others.

BTW, spent a lot of time in AZ. Uncle Sam provided with an all expenses paid, 4 yr, trip to Luke AFB. Over the years I've spent a lot of time hunting the State.

Last edited by Dave Davidson1; 07/27/14 05:49 AM.

It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,315
F
Offline
F
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,315
Welcome to PB captwho. There are some members out your way. They don't post much. Seems like a specific question is asked and then that's it. Sure would be nice to keep participation from the region going on a regular basis.

How cold will your water stay during the summer? RBT are usually stocked in the fall and not expected to last past June/July in most ponds, unless they stay cold. Your air temps sound similar to ours here, so I would think your water temps will be the same too. To warm for year round trout. The RBT I stock are probably a 1/2# each in Oct, so it seems like your numbers on them are high. I stock 50 RBT in 1 acre, and that works out nicely. If you feed, you probably could do it, and in regards to not being there to feed, you can buy an automatic feeder that will hold enough feed between visits. I think if you feed, the trout will do fine with LMB. The trout love feed. However, without feed, you will have to keep up a lot of forage for both predators. 10# of FHM seem more than enough for now if you don't add a predator till later. Oh, and make sure there are no hitchhikers in with those FHM. Hand sort them all, away from the pond. Put the good ones into a bucket, and then bring that to the pond.

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 143
captwho Offline OP
OP Offline
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 143
The area is pines and mountains. Between Showlow and Heber. I'm not sure on the snow melt but I'm sure it will freeze at least a good amount on the edges for a couple of months. I will be aerating the pond immediately. I already have algae growing so I am not concerned for FHM food. also lots of tadpoles. If I start with 10 lbs of FHM then how many trout should I use? sounds like 50 fish will be good. I'm concern from my reading about introducing fish that can become a problem. Lots of complaints about CC on here. DO I use BG also? I am not a fisherman either so I don't know what I want. I do have kids and nieces and nephews that I want to enjoy the pond.


"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."
Winston Churchill
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 143
captwho Offline OP
OP Offline
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 143
Originally Posted By: fish n chips


How cold will your water stay during the summer? RBT are usually stocked in the fall and not expected to last past June/July in most ponds, unless they stay cold. Your air temps sound similar to ours here, so I would think your water temps will be the same too. To warm for year round trout. The RBT I stock are probably a 1/2# each in Oct, so it seems like your numbers on them are high. I stock 50 RBT in 1 acre, and that works out nicely.
I think if you feed, the trout will do fine with LMB. The trout love feed. However, without feed, you will have to keep up a lot of forage for both predators. 10# of FHM seem more than enough for now if you don't add a predator till later. Oh, and make sure there are no hitchhikers in with those FHM. Hand sort them all, away from the pond. Put the good ones into a bucket, and then bring that to the pond.


We have 60 degree nights so I assume the water wont get over about 70 deg. All the lakes up there have trout all year long.
Thanks for the heads up on the minnows. Will it be easy to discern FHM from other fish?


"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."
Winston Churchill
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 143
captwho Offline OP
OP Offline
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 143
Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1


BTW, spent a lot of time in AZ. Uncle Sam provided with an all expenses paid, 4 yr, trip to Luke AFB. Over the years I've spent a lot of time hunting the State.


Props to you! 4 years at one base? So you know how beautiful northern AZ can be.


"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."
Winston Churchill
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 340
Likes: 3
D
Offline
D
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 340
Likes: 3
I lived in Phx area for 7 yrs and spent a good number of summer weekends up on the Rim and beyond- away from two legged critters. Beautiful country and an outdoor paradise.

I dumped my FHM and GSH in a new pond and within 2 months, it was swarming with new fry. Now a couple months further on, there are fish big enough to really make a good splash when they hit a pellet. When there are no predators, those forage fish just eat and make babies. I know it's not the advised route, but I hand feed when I'm at my pond on the weekends. They are up after the feed as soon as I begin throwing it out. I find it most enjoyable to just watch them go at it. My pond is bout same size and 10 lbs of FHM will do nicely as long as they have time to do the fishy thing before the predators hit them.

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
Trout in the local lakes near the pond could be surviving due to a combination of deep clean, very clear, water (oligotrophic low nutrients). This allows oxygen to be produced naturally in the deep cool-cold water to sustain trout. It is a low nutrient, habitat balance thing. You may not need aeration if your pond is at high enough elevation, has gin clear water and has low enough nutrient concentrations.

I think for your described conditions, I would at first forgo the traditional fish of BG, LMB, CC and stock only minnows and trout. If the trout do not survive then stock alternative fish. Smallmouth bass would be better in cool water than LMB.

Since you are not feeding pellets, I would not stock trout until 2014 2015 and in the meantime allow the natural invertebrate community to colonize the pond. Colonization will happen relatively fast especially if you supplement the invertebrate species present.
Stocked native AZ lake dwelling crayfish could help control attached algae (see later). These invertebrates will in themselves sustain a limited trout population. However I would do my best to stock scuds probably Gammarus lacustris or another AZ native Gammarus. I would contact a Gammarus (Amphipoda) expert at the Department of Zoology at Arizona State Univ. Tempe, AZ. Go to AZ State Univ website for contact info of Dr. Gerald A. Cole. Ask his advice what would be the best scud to introduce to your pond as trout food. He may be able to advise you where would be the best place to collect or buy some scuds as seed for your pond stocking.

I would also go to one of the high elevation trout lakes and collect some water with hopefully some good zooplankton and mud-rock dwelling insect larvae to seed into your new pond. Pick up rocks and pick or net any small crawling bugs including a few crayfish. All you initially need is a good diversity of a few of each type of "seed" organisms. Haul them in a bucket or two of lake water to your pond. One bucket of lake water and one bucket of picked bug larvae. Consider buying from the internet some Daphnia magna and or Daphnia pulex as 'good' zooplankton as trout food and pond diversity. Let all "bug" types colonize until next fall (2015)before adding trout.

Since you are not mainly interested in angling, I would stock smaller trout 4"-6" sizes 40-50 per acre would be a good number or fewer trout if your water clarity is 14-18ft. You can always add more at a later date as the original fish are harvested or more are needed as they die. A few different sizes could be beneficial. Note big adult trout will eat small fingerling trout.

Consider adding FHM this fall or next spring; trout next fall. Numbers of FHM could be 3 to 10 lbs based on what size trout you plan to initially stock. More FHM for larger trout, fewer FHM for small trout. Fewer FHM 3-6 lbs would be easier and quicker to net - hand - sort. Breeder FHM number around 200 - 250 / lb. If it were me I would trap or collect (drop net) naturally reproducing minnows from a trout lake and 'seed' them into my pond.

Last edited by esshup; 07/27/14 07:42 PM. Reason: changed 2014 to 2015

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,028
Likes: 274
D
Moderator
Lunker
Online Content
Moderator
Lunker
D
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,028
Likes: 274
Yeah, I like that area. I took a nice 6x6 bull elk about 1/4 mile from the city dump East of town. Also did a lot of deer hunting in the Blue Wilderness. Heck, I've hunted a lot of the State. Now, I'm too old to handle the mountains and the skinny air.

I like Bills idea of the crawdads. They seem to grow as big as lobsters in that area. A lot of small lakes in the area have trout. However, I never did figure what they fed on. The water was gin clear everywhere.

I was there at Luke for 4 years from 64-68. I put in 4 different volunteer statement for Vietnam. I wanted to see the tropics. But I never got selected. However, every time some NCO's shipped out from other bases, I wound up with 90 day TDY's to take over the computer operations area. Once, it was during hunting season and I was PO'd.

Look up fathead pics here or anywhere on the web. The reason for sorting is that sometimes hatcheries aren't all that careful when they collect fish for sale.

I think fatheads could live in a nuclear waste dump. But, they need some algae established to eat on.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,315
F
Offline
F
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,315
Bill, do you mean 2015 wink.

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
Yes trout could be stocked in fall of 2015. All others prior to fall of 2015. Gin clear water supports naturally very few fish pounds per acre and in the range of 5 to 20 lbs of trout per acre. Flying aquatic insects will annually find their way to your pond and colonize it with a wide variety of insect species based on its water quality and to a lesser extent habitat types. You can have good habitat types but if proper water quality is not present many invertebrate species can not thrive there. Surviving, thriving species are called 'indicator species'.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 07/27/14 07:32 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 143
captwho Offline OP
OP Offline
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 143
WOW! Every time Bill speaks I'm amazed with his knowledge. I don't mean to sound like a raving fan but I do appreciate real knowledge when I hear it. I did follow your advice and went to the local lake and "borrowed" about 40 gal of lake water. I didn't see anything in it but I did grab 1 minnow of some sort.
I did consider crayfish but everything I read from "The Man" said it's a bad idea. Do I need to worry about dam or bank damage?
Also, the flies at waters edge are getting ridiculous. Any ideas other than spraying with pesticide?

The trout farmer told me to go to the marshes on the rim and harvest grasses and plants to plant.
Any specific plant I need to stay away from? i.e.cattails?


"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."
Winston Churchill
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
Plants to choose will depend on the type of access that you want to the shoreline and waters edge. Notice and study the existing plants in and around the local trout lakes and transfer the ones you determine will fit well into your plans for your pond. Focus on short growing species. Crayfish from the trout lakes will not dig into your dam because they are lake dwelling species that very rarely dig deep burrows /tunnels and almost always live under rocks where you collect them.

Try a bread and or catfood baited minnow trap set for 2-24 hrs for collecting lake minnows. A mesh or wire basket of various sizes and types of rocks placed in the lake and inconspicuously marked and allowed to colonize for 2 to 8 months and then very gently retrieved and put in a tub of water for transport will collect a wide variety and many invertebrates as 'seed'.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 07/28/14 07:21 AM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 143
captwho Offline OP
OP Offline
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 143
Thank you. I will do that. As I spend more time researching the fish situation, my family and I are getting very excited. I will post pics as they become available.

does anyone have an opinion on koi?

I am also interested in another fish I can put in that will grow huge, but not invasive, for the kids to be scared of when they swim,(but obviously not dangerous)?


"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."
Winston Churchill
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 143
captwho Offline OP
OP Offline
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 143
Originally Posted By: fish n chips
Welcome to PB captwho. There are some members out your way. They don't post much. Seems like a specific question is asked and then that's it. Sure would be nice to keep participation from the region going on a regular basis.


Well it sounds like this is going to be a long process of experimentation so I will keep you posted and participate as much as possible.


"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."
Winston Churchill
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,028
Likes: 274
D
Moderator
Lunker
Online Content
Moderator
Lunker
D
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,028
Likes: 274
Big fish need big food. An often quoted example is a bass. They need food that is 1/4 to 1/3 their body length. Like us, it is a matter of calories obtained vs energy expended.

Unless you want to keep buying trout, I'd pass on a big fish.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
Koi(river carp with color), are bottom rooters, aquatic pigs, and water roilers aeration will tend to accentuate the turbidity created by the bottom feeding koi. Koi and clean gin clear, water conditions do not partner well. Clear koi ponds need tremendous amounts of mechanical filtration to keep the water clear. If you are not regularly feeding the fish you will likely not see a big fish very often. If you want one or two large fish choose a white amur aka grass carp if legal in AZ. Another option to get a few eventually big fish is to stock fewer trout per acre such as 6-10. Fewer fish have more resulting food thus they always have food to excess and get big and fat.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 07/28/14 07:48 AM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 143
captwho Offline OP
OP Offline
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 143
Dave, are there any big herbivores? i.e. grass carp?


"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."
Winston Churchill
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 143
captwho Offline OP
OP Offline
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 143
Bill, are there any bottom feeders that will prevent muck that aren't a problem? I thought cc were the answer but everyone seems to dislike them.


"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."
Winston Churchill
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
In my experience very few bottom feeders will eat muck, if they did, ponds with CC and koi would not be mucky. Many ponds with CC and koi have lots of bottom muck, and full of dead organics, dead leaves and various other forms of organic often blackish muck. Koi and at times CC will stir the sediments searching for food items i.e. bottom decomposers. This stirring activity does mix the sediments helping to keep the sediments mixed and oxygenated.

The best things that eat muck are invertebrates and bacteria (decomposers) that live in the oxygenated bottom. Oxygenated bottom zone (aerobic) is very important here. Anaerobic (no oxygen) is death for good decomposers.

As far as I have observed the best fish that eats muck is the tilapia and especially the blue tilapia. It eats muck to get the bacteria growing on the muck particles. Muck is not the preferred food of tilapia. To eat muck,, first the algae and other preferred plants of tilapia have to be in low supply.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 07/29/14 04:59 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
There are documented studies of tilapia and some shad reducing muck in lakes. I have not seen any such results for CC , carp , etc.
















Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 143
captwho Offline OP
OP Offline
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 143
Does anyone have an opinion on mosquito fish? The county gives them away for free and I thought the might be another hardy minnow type for the trout to feed on. But they also say they can be invasive and hurt the invertebrate population?


"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."
Winston Churchill
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,791
Likes: 14
O
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
O
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,791
Likes: 14
I've read they can be a great additional forage option, but also tend to inhabit a different niche than some predators.

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,791
Likes: 14
O
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
O
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,791
Likes: 14
To elaborate, and this is not based off of personal experience (I do not have mosquitofish in my pond), I believe this species tends to hug the shoreline in sometimes very shallow water. This, potentially, keeps them safe from your predators, kind of negating your purpose of using them as forage.

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,028
Likes: 274
D
Moderator
Lunker
Online Content
Moderator
Lunker
D
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,028
Likes: 274
Sorry Capt, been gone for 4 days.

Grass carp get large but can eat only certain plants.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
Bob Lusk, GaryK, GrizzFan, PhotographerDave
Recent Posts
New 2 acre pond stocking plan
by Dave Davidson1 - 03/28/24 02:50 PM
Working on a .5acre disaster, I mean pond.
by PRCS - 03/28/24 02:50 PM
1 year after stocking question
by Dave Davidson1 - 03/28/24 02:44 PM
Happy Birthday Bob Lusk!!
by Sunil - 03/28/24 12:39 PM
Paper-shell crayfish and Japanese snails
by esshup - 03/28/24 10:39 AM
Brooder Shiners and Fry, What to do??
by Freg - 03/28/24 09:42 AM
Relative weight charts in Excel ? Calculations?
by esshup - 03/28/24 08:36 AM
Dewatering bags seeded to form berms?
by Justin W - 03/28/24 08:19 AM
Reducing fish biomass
by FishinRod - 03/28/24 08:18 AM
Questions and Feedback on SMB
by Donatello - 03/27/24 03:10 PM
2024 North Texas Optimal BG food Group Buy
by Dave Davidson1 - 03/27/24 08:15 AM
Newly Uploaded Images
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
by Tbar, December 10
Deer at Theo's 2023
Deer at Theo's 2023
by Theo Gallus, November 13
Minnow identification
Minnow identification
by Mike Troyer, October 6
Sharing the Food
Sharing the Food
by FishinRod, September 9
Nice BGxRES
Nice BGxRES
by Theo Gallus, July 28
Snake Identification
Snake Identification
by Rangersedge, July 12

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5