Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Minnow ID please

Bill, why is that? Is that because the Golden Shiners, at "middle age" adult size would be too big for the SMB to eat unless they (the SMB) are exceptionally large and that leaves a sizeable GSH brood population in the pond?

In addition to esshop's question, and based on the need for submerged vegetation to maintain SMB forage, am I better waiting till next fall to add SMB, YP, and RES to the pond that was built last year, and stocked with GSH and FHM this spring (I see los of very small fish now)? Alternatively, would stocking a small number of a smaller size of these preditors be OK this fall - maybe 20 of each in the 3/4 acre pond?

Having adult shiners going 8"+ helps them maintain numbers compared to other species of shiner. Steelcolor are the next biggest with a large adult exceeding 6". A reason why LCS are also a good option is their larger max size as well. Even GSH without proper habitat and poor management will be extirpated from a pond over time though. Allowing a good generation of brooder fish can increase how long GSH or LCS are present. That first original generation stays too large for all but the biggest SMB to eat. Until they die of old age, they'll pull off a spawn each year...

Even though banded killifish only top out at 5", they're very effective at avoiding predation. I commonly see mine skipping across the surface to avoid be eaten. However, they get hammered in the cold water winter months. All I need are a few dozen adults to survive the winter to bring numbers back up though. They're very prolific spawners.

CJ summarizes the forage questions for SMB well. As to RAH adding fingerling predators this fall or next fall both ways have pros and cons. RES for sure can be added now. Actually the breeder RES could have been added this spring so they establish a stronger numbers earlier. I would also add the YP this fall and use 2 or 3 size classes. Adult perch usually prey on the smaller minnows (1"-1.7" esp FHM) first and leave adult sizes (2.5"-3"+) until food items become limited. Apparently this is because the larger minnows swim faster, are harder to catch, and handling time until swallowing is longer thus not 'easy' for the YP. The whole process goes smoothly until the SMB are 10"-12" and they start aggressively eating the smaller and larger minnows (3"-5"); most anything that fits in their mouth. They are pretty fast predators and efficient at capturing smaller fish. If the YP are pellet trained you can stock larger numbers (upto300/ac) of them since they will be using pellets and not minnows as primary forage items. Larger YP will spawn next spring (Apr) and provide small fingerlings for the SMB diet.

Wait to next fall for adding SMB fingerlings only if you want to allow a significant amount of plant cover to develop as refuge areas for the small fish - minnows shiners - fingerlings. Stocking YOY fingerling SMB 2"-3" will not eat a significant number of larger minnows until smallies are 5" long and a good number of that forage for juvenile SMB will be young of year perch if present. Crayfish will diversify the forage for SMB. This entire plan allows time for the largest shiners (GS) to continue growing to the safe zone size of 7"-8"+ lengths and time for some plants to establish sizable "beds" or stands as refuge areas for all small fish and invertebrates.

Ok - Sounds like I do not need to worry about larger RES, YP, or GSH eating small SMB next fall? I am holding off on adding crayfish (although some have already shown up on their own - probably out of the field tile) until I have some decent submerged plants so they do not hammer my water lilies. I think that I remember that it is hard to find a source for LCS. If the SMB will not be hurt by waiting until next fall, I am good with being patient.

Being patient for adding SMB will have rewards, and in the meantime you can enjoy all the benefits that fast growing pellet fed yellow perch can provide. You may like how fishery responds so well that you decide to not even add the smallies who will definitely change the dynamics of the YP-RES -minnow/shiner balance. After seeing what a YP dominated fishery can produce in a few years, you may decide to use a non-reproducing sportfish predator in the pond such as HSB or walleye instead of SMB.

My current philosophy is one of trying to get a sustainable system going without much input. Thus I really want to have species that will breed as the longterm goal. I have a hundred acres of wildlife habitat that I am developing/restoring and I am not getting any younger (and funds are limited). I am happy with this approach in my LMB/BG/RES pond. I did have a fish kill in that pond a few years back (under snow-covered ice) but it is coming back slowly. I must admit that I enjoy throwing in some pellets in this established pond to see the BG feed (about 75 seem to show up), but the new pond is further away from the house. I really want this new pond for some SMB fishing for visitors. I have 2 more potential pond sites and some house repairs to get done. With plans for the next 200 years in place, I have to prioritize. I know that more intense management would yield good results because I farm part time, but I am OK with less than optimal production and enjoy the challange of trying to get a balance in the ponds (and surrounding areas). Just controlling the thousands of willow seedlings and hundreds of cattail volunteers around the new pond is challenge enough.

More minnows for ID please.

Top 2, gambusia/mosquitofish

Middle two, some sort of shiner, most likely common or striped.

Bottom 1, creek chub.

On the gambusia - should I add them to a pond that has FHM and GSH, and will have RES, YP, and SMB? Do they do any harm as a forage species?

I am not a fan of them personally. I would keep them out.

How do you tell the shiners from the creek chubs?

First thing to notice is the comparative size of the mouth. Almost twice as large for the creek chub. Next look at the structure, shape, size and pattern and often color or brightness of the scales. Usually noticeably different for shiners compared to C.chub. I use scale density (relative size and number along lateral line) and size of mouth as first to notice factors. Some shiner species have distinct markings on the lateral line scales making them quite apparent, not true for C.Chubs where lateral line is hard to distinguish. The body shape in terms of cross section is more roundish for the c.chub vs more laterally compressed for the shiners. When you learn to look all three types of features for each separating the two is not too difficult. It takes some practice comparing the two and looking for the main separating features, then it becomes easier. Technically the c.chub will have a tiny barbel in the back end or lower corner of the jaw, that is much easier to see in the larger individuals 6"-9".

I agree with the ids.

There are several types of Gams those look like ... Eastern Mosquitofish, Gambusia holbrooki

see http://web1.cnre.vt.edu/efish/families/poeciliidae.html

Sounds like I am better off not putting gambusia in the pond.

RAH, I'm just the opposite of CJ. They seem to last longer in a pond than FHM, so I like 'em.

I was about to add gams to my ponds when another forum member warned me about their aggressiveness and tendancy to interfere with reproduction of your other minnow species, unsure to what extent this occurs. I did not add them and so far have fhm and gsh in the ponds

Its always easier to exclude something rather than try to remove something later. I'll hold of for now on the gambusia, but I may rethink this if the SMB (which I plant to add in the fall of 2014) ever over-populate or the forage do not hold up. I am hoping to get RES and YP soon, but the hatchery that I was planning to get them from is very slow on returning emails. It still may be too early.

The hatchery may not contact you until they are sure they have the fish available or seined/collected from their ponds or purchased elsewhere. Numerous smaller and some fairly large fish farms buy a lot of their stocker fish and resell them. As a backup I would search out an additional supplier in case the 1st choice fails.

I have a second choice but it will likely cost more. They said that they would contact me when they had the fish in fall, but I deal with lots of moving parts in my job, so I have learned to check on things.

Gambusia are very easy to establish even in ponds with mature predator populations. In my opinion, if you can find banded killiefish or a topminnow species, I think they would fit a similar niche but not have near the issues gambusia cause.

What are the issues?

I think they eat bass eggs

When trying to have other species of forage fish, gambusia are nasty as hell. They will harass pick out and dominate fish 3 times their size. They are also effective eggs eaters, on eggs that are broadcast and left alone, like GSH eggs. I don't think they make a very good forage because of their size and their habitat preference.

Fish ID please