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Originally Posted By: fish n chips
I don't know about that...The way I am understanding it, and the way Rex and others have mentioned above, is that the thousands of babies from reproduction is what will control the algae. Not the 25 small ones you are thinking about stocking.


Correct.

George, how many pounds per surface acre of Tilapia were stocked in your ponds last year?


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
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Originally Posted By: canyoncreek
Bill,
thanks for your story about good success in the past. I wonder if the floating puddles of matted algae I had may have been the lyngbya variety. Either way, the lack of predators in my 1/3 acre pond means that I might get away with a starting dose of 25 tilapia rather than 100... The other consideration is initial size. Economics say I will be better off shipping small fish and let them grow over the summer. Reproduction is not too important if they will all die in the fall anyway.

I plan to experiment and report back my success.. If they all die in the fall then I shouldn't expect a big difference in success if i get mozambique vs blue variety?


Canyon, Mozambique die at 55 degrees, Blues die at 45, Moz can be safely stocked at 72 degrees, Blues at 62....Given that it is the offspring that do all the real grunt work (stockers SHOULD be too big to be preyed upon) you will be able to get benefits from Blues, at least 2 months longer....that is also up to 3 extra spawns.

Dying each year is exactly what is wanted so all that nutrient that was in the form of FA, becomes an edible form of nutrient, Tilapia, for the bass, bluegill, catfish, coons, fox, etc...

I'm not so sure about your "economics". Getting fingerlings, say 1-2" long, it will be a minimum of 8 weeks till you see a spawn, in a 1/3 acre pond, you would need about 15 pounds of large stocker fish, which will begin spawning immediately and repeatedly when first stocked, so you will not lose that 2 months of algae consumption. Prices would be very similar as fry/fingerlings shipped for Aquaponics use are very pricey.

Small fish are similar to paying for 2 months of weekly fill ups in your car, yet it isn't driven.

Last edited by Rainman; 04/24/14 01:33 AM.


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Originally Posted By: esshup
Originally Posted By: fish n chips
I don't know about that...The way I am understanding it, and the way Rex and others have mentioned above, is that the thousands of babies from reproduction is what will control the algae. Not the 25 small ones you are thinking about stocking.


Correct.

George, how many pounds per surface acre of Tilapia were stocked in your ponds last ye
ar?


Scott, I don’t look at lbs/acre as much as amount lbs tilapia per pond to control FA or limit or increase forage biomass. It all depends on how much water is the a drought ridden pond and how the situation looks to me and discussion with Overton as to his recommendation.

My earlier report of this year’s stocking numbers was by total lbs/pond and not surface acre ……
“Most years I stock less than 15bs/acre but last year was an exceptionally bad FA and upped the numbers”….were based on this estimate rather than lbs/acre as quoted.

That is the reason I don’t like to mix northern and southern tilapia discussions because blanket statements as to lbs/acre just don’t work down here with constant variables.

You will laugh when I tell you that I only stocked 15 lbs total in our two acre pond this year due to very little FA and 10 lbs total in shrunken ¼ acre pond due to a FA explosion. By the way, they have done a number on the FA in the smal pond in only two weeks time. The BC in this pond will control increased biomass.

Originally Posted By: esshup
Originally Posted By: fish n chips


George, how many pounds per surface acre of Tilapia were stocked in your ponds last year?

Scott, last year was a very bad year for FA in main pond and we stocked total of 25lbs in 2 acre pond and not so bad FA I little pond so only 5lbs total in ¼ pond.
I tend to stock very low numbers of large pregnant females and get quick spawns - I am very lucky to have a supplier that hand picks my tilapia.

Like our mentor says: “It all depends“.
Cheers,
George



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Original george #173 (22 June 2002)




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Thanks George! Good information to know.


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Originally Posted By: esshup
Thanks George! Good information to know.

Scott, this tilapia subject has been interesting to me.
On site observation is an important tool for any stocking plan, especially determining sex of Mozambique tilapia for decision making as to FA and/or forage needs.
Adult Mozambique tilapia are very easy to determine sex as long as they come from the same water at the same time. Before discovery of single BC to control biomass in small pond, I would select all male tilapia .

That is the reason that you and others establish good relationship with suppliers to provide quality products to your clients.

Problem that I am hearing about now is fish trucks supplying feed stores inferior tilapia to sell at higher prices than growers.
G/



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Does it matter if a northern pond owner (W Michigan) uses mozambique vs blue tilapia young to help eat FA?

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You might get one more spawn out of the blues.


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
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Originally Posted By: george1
Originally Posted By: esshup
Thanks George! Good information to know.

Scott, this tilapia subject has been interesting to me.
On site observation is an important tool for any stocking plan, especially determining sex of Mozambique tilapia for decision making as to FA and/or forage needs.
Adult Mozambique tilapia are very easy to determine sex as long as they come from the same water at the same time. Before discovery of single BC to control biomass in small pond, I would select all male tilapia .

That is the reason that you and others establish good relationship with suppliers to provide quality products to your clients.

Problem that I am hearing about now is fish trucks supplying feed stores inferior tilapia to sell at higher prices than growers.
G/

This tilapia post pertains to southern ponds only..

Our Mozambique tilapias were stocked 04-08-14 - stocked 10 lbs in badly infested FA ¼ acre pond.
This is what it looked like at the time.


This is what it looked like today, 05-03-14- it was cleaned up in about 2+ weeks!


This is what our neighbor’s pond looked like this morning - located at about 100 yds south with drainage into creek below our pond.




Magic Mozambique Tilapia!

George Glazener





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George that is an amazing transformation!


Fishing has never been about the fish....

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When stocked in the correct numbers, they DO work as planned!


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Originally Posted By: esshup
When stocked in the correct numbers, they DO work as planned!

Yeah, normal tilapia stocking in that little 1/4 acre pond is 5lbs but FA was really bad this year so upped to 10lbs total.
Not so bad in big pond so reduced numbers - too many variables for going strictly by lbs/acre w/o on-site observation.
Really got some good tilapia from Todd this year - many large pregnant females in the mix.
G/



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Originally Posted By: george1
Really got some good tilapia from Todd
this year - many large pregnant females in the mix. G/


George...Walt Overton is delivering my tilapia Wed.

Got my albino cats delivered today.


Fishing has never been about the fish....

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We have had a couple of cold snaps and our FA has kind of died back a ways. Is the FA an early flush in the spring problem, or does it persist all year?

In other words, will my FA come roaring back as the water warms up more approaching summer? Water temp now at 68.

I hand pulled some out of shallow areas where I had gravel for spawning just to expose the gravel as the FA was matted over it. Along the steep sided banks the FA was never really bad but some about a foot out from the bank or so, and I never messed with it. All of it has seemed to die back somewhat, although it is still there. The wind and waves seem to play havoc with it and roll it up in ropes.

Currently it is not at a level that I'm worried about. The FA is full of life and little critters. Just wondering if I need to be worrying about it exploding in growth.


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My FA has gone crazy in the last three days with this recent heat wave, we went from the highs in the low 70s to highs in the upper 90s. 101 for a high today so going to keep a close eye on the pond and see what the FA does.

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That is kind of what I was afraid of but my wishful thinking was hoping for a different outcome.

I was afraid it would come roaring back. We had freezing temps just a couple nights ago (not good on flowering wheat) and now we are predicted for highs in the 80's.

I got a feeling I just witnessed the first salvo of the FA and it is just resting up preparing for its second run on my pond. smirk frown

If it comes back may try some hydrated lime, and I wondered what sprinkling some salt on it would do. Salt should not hurt the pond?????? and might even be good for the fish. But salt is hard on certain type weeds. Probably more wishful thinking.


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Since my name has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread, let me offer these thoughts about tilapia.
As I recall, my "heated debate" with Meadowlark was about the merits of using tilapia in bass-crowded lakes. My logic, at that time, was, "Why stock a fish that breeds a lot, and then dies en masse, into a crowded bass lake?" My logic was that we have a lake where the forage fish can't possibly keep up with those 12-13" gangsta bass as it is. So, we artificially prop up the forage fish population with tilapia, grow those bass into 14" overcrowded bass, the tilapia die that fall, the food chain immediately collapses and we are worse off than before we started. Now, we have more pounds of bass per unit of water and there's an immediate collapse of the food chain. That was my logic. Heck, it made sense...
I was wrong.
Here's what really happens. Stocked at least ten pounds per surface acre, Mozambique tilapia, in Texas, begin reproducing at heavy rates. As they spawn and spit out the babies, those young fish feed in a slightly different niche than other species of babies being hatched. Over a few months, the fishery accepts these young fish and they, in fact, become a key part of the food chain for largemouth bass. (We are working on a very cool research project which will help prove up this truth) As the summer wears on into early fall, what I didn't think about was the statistical odds of higher survival rates of young of the year "native" forage fish.
Here's what I've documented through electrofishing surveys for the last few years. In overcrowded bass lakes where we've stocked tilapia, we're seeing marked survival of young of the year bluegills where they ordinarily would have disappeared much earlier in the year.
Another unfounded fear I had was that each fall we'd see thousands of dead fish and my clients would be upset at that sight.
I was wrong.
What actually happens is that, as the water cools, tilapia become sluggish. When that happens, bass gorge themselves and get another growth spurt. While we often see some of the originally stocked fish full grown die each fall, it's not nearly the numbers to cause a client any angst.
While all this is happening, young of the year bluegill are enjoying higher survival rates and growing into sizes that our bass can use throughout late fall and winter.
Bottom line, from experience...bass grow and bluegill have better survival rates.
Oh, and tilapia eat algae, too.
Not sure where the reference to Dave Davidson and I came from regarding the stocking rates for tilapia to eat algae, but I've bought into the general rates of 20 pounds per acre for algae control. I've seen it over and over for the last 10 years or so.
I am now a big believer in tilapia to help renovate a forage fish population and to control algae. I've not really experimented with stocking rates for forage fish compared to algae control but I know, for ponds with moderate amounts of algae, 10 pounds per acre is often not enough. 20 pounds seems to be the magic number in these parts. I'm in no position to debate beyond what I know works.
Guess I wasn't wanting to take anyone's word for it...until I tried it myself.
Lots of people have lots of theories...and sometimes a person has to do it himself to be sold.
Oh...and it should go without saying that overcrowded bass must be culled along the way.


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Originally Posted By: Bob Lusk
That was my logic. Heck, it made sense...
I was wrong.


Don'tcha just hate it when that happens? Have it perfectly, logically, figured out, and it is wrong?

Happens to me all the time.


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Bob, that 70 pounds is what I stocked before calling you in. And, one of the homeowners stocked some more.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

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Hope this does not take us to much off base, but I see the discussion of Blues and Mozambique Tilapia.

Do we have anyone on here that has used the Niles in their ponds? If so what have you seen as far as algae or reproduction?

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MRHELLO, Nilotica's (Niles) don't do very well at all for algae control. They have a narrower food preference, reproduce less often, become sexually mature FAR later than Blue or Mozambique, and still die at the higher water temp range of the Mozambique.

This lower and slower reproduction rate is why Niles are the preferred fish for food production. That is also why one should use great care if using a food fish producer's stock for algae control.

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Grorge1.. I'll have to show you what badly infested really looks like this summer lol..


I believe in catch and release. I catch then release to the grease..

BG. CSBG. LMB. HSB. RES.

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Also, those little "blues" are quicker than lightening.... They can move quicker than your eyes can follow them. I put fatheads in my pond every spring and fall (just to feed all of the predators). I have seen the fatheads swim right in front of a bass and get gulped.

Predators have to earn their dinner on "blues" in warm water grin.

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Let me start by saying, I am going to try being informative here and offer my opinions, experiences and personal conclusions based on my experiences and pretty extensive research. I will do some ranting, but please, remember the rants I will make are not meant to create any ideological debates.....

Meadowlark's posts are what inspired me to get interested in Tilapia in my pond as a "natural", no labor involved algae control. Bad thing was, ML insisted, often not at all politely, that only his way worked. ML, like Bob said of his own early tilapia logic... was wrong. What worked in ML's ponds, didn't do much in most other's ponds. Still, I will have to credit the man with posting some of his experiences that began changing my life and career dramatically!

Once I got interested in Tilapia as a possible solution for my personal pond's issues, it didn't take much research to understand Mozambique just didn't make economic sense to use outside of Texas. In fact, more research showed me Mozambique were not a wise choice anywhere north of the 30th parallel. As most here know though, in Texas, ONLY Mozambique are legal, but I ain't in Texas.

I was so engrossed with researching Tilapia! I was reading every spare moment I had! (I almost hate reading) I posted my excitement here often, shared my new-found knowledge and more every time something made sense to me. I asked tons of questions and for other's inputs. It was ewest that asked me on simple question that nearly stopped me in my tracks. Eric asked in a thread, if Tilapia were legal to stock in Missouri....my eventual answer after reading my state's wildlife code....uhhh, well, uhm, hmmm....nope!

By this time, I had spent hundreds of hours reading and comparing research papers. Every word I could find on "Tilapia" I digested, mulled over, and asked myself questions about. I consciously decided that there was no way in hell I was going to now know so much and NOT find a way to put all I'd learned to work....Tilapia were a perfect answer to a lot of pond issues, FAR more effective and FAR less harmful than many repeatedly used chemicals that would only recycle original problems while creating new, bigger problems! People deserved the chance to use a Tilapia that would work for them!

I brainstormed, asked endless what if's and learned what many pond owners never think of...my epiphany?...changing even one bacteria in a pond will change that ponds dynamics forever. It was then that I started piecing together how Tilapia in a pond would NOT be a threat as so many so called research studies claimed. I started making sense of the misleading and confusing research....I saw most were manipulated to produce pre-determined conclusions.

My what-ifs began to challenge conventional logic...it no longer mattered what tilapia ate according to some theory in a bureaucrats paper, what mattered was what Tilapia did...IN THE PONDS. What REALLY happens??? Tilapia eat, digest and extract nutrient from things in a pond NOTHING else can, from damn near anything (that's why the perpetual readers in power decided tilapia are such a danger). They reproduce like crazy too!! Normally, that is a very scary thing in a pond, (another huge red flag for the readers in charge of us), but not with Tilapia...They DIE each year where we want to use them! That death and their eating what almost nothing else can is what makes them so VERY special and powerful as a management tool. Tilapia are like a missing link in the Pond's ecosystem that truly supercharges it's potential to support life. Take THAT, Darwin!

Tilapia take hundreds, even thousands of pounds of inedible bottom waste that can actually poison a pond, and they eat it! You can say, Tilapia actually reverse the ponds aging process! Better yet, THEY EAT ALGAE!!!

Dudes, freaks, fellow pondmiesters...I was ON to something!

I told anyone that would listen, I asked tons of real world experience questions. what answers were not known, I put fish in water, or others did, and we started getting answers...Answers we could replicate, over and over and over.

Was it scientific?? WHO CARES?!?!? Letters after a name do NOT mean you have any claim on knowledge, fact or accuracy. This Degreed, High School Dropout, was proving a lot of names with PHD, MS and others should have been F's...cause, they were VERY wrong! Suddenly, this dummy had a passion...a passion to learn everything I possibly could about Blue Tilapia and way more than I wanted about many other Tilapia!

By this time, maybe after a year or more of near constant research, I had ended my successful 26 year career in the Auto Parts industry...I knew I'd get blackballed for reporting my CEO for Ken Lay, Enron style fraud and stock manipulation, but hey, I slept better at night knowing my integrity was back intact! AND I could study more about tilapia with the extra, good nights of sleep!

I then completely dove into researching all I could about the different species of Tilapia, a genre of the cichlidae family (African Cichlid) and I quickly realized 3 things.

First, virtually all published research on the species was for use in the food fish industry.

Second, ALL the research I found pertaining to Tilapia being invasive was blatantly ideologically biased, and based on purely hypothetical, theory, isolated short term observations and non-relevant data (such as describing what one species does by observing an entirely different species), Using multiple species to make claims on one species, or even when actually based on another species (ie a study on T. Nilotica [Niles[ using facts about T, Aurea [Blues]). Most "studies and claimed "research" I read was pretty obvious to a reasonable person, that it manipulated or ignored facts, used hypotheticals and theorized to create a desired conclusion. When read fully, it can be difficult to agree with the conclusions made even with the "facts" they'd print.

Here is a representative GOVERNMENTAL sample of what I found in the way of misleading, confusing and flat out false information. This is the "study most prohibitive state biologist use to ban Tilapia in their states...It is rife with citing "personal communications", saying "perhaps", "may" and "possibly" have established populations. http://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/factsheet.aspx?SpeciesID=463

What I find most interesting about Blue Tilapia in the USGS report is near the end under the heading of "Impact of Introduction". It states, "It has invaded the Taylor Slough portion of Everglades National Park where it is considered a major management problem for the National Park Service (Courtenay 1989; Courtenay and Williams 1992).". Yet after the extended cold snap of 2010, I KNOW the National Park Service restocked over $75,000 worth of Blue Tilapia fry and fingerlings after they were all but eradicated that year ( saw the check!)...(Perhaps they just didn't want to lose the annual $750,000 for Tilapia eradication budgeted for the glades, or perhaps they saw the explosion of aquatic plants choking the glades return that once tilapia established, Tilapia had been controlling said aquatic vegetation, and the NPS had previously spent millions losing the plant control battle that was filling in the glades)

Here's another representative sample. This is a publically funded "study" on Blue Tilapia http://www.tsusinvasives.org/database/blue-tilapia.html again combines a report on one species, with other species, plus contains outright lies in it. Here is an excerpt that does both in a single sentence..."If two species from the genus hybridize, that can increase their survivability and expand their invasive range - See more at: http://www.tsusinvasives.org/database/blue-tilapia.html#sthash.2eyyFj7R.dpuf "...First it adds other undisclosed species that could hybridize...second, since this pertains to Blue Tilapia in the "study", ANY hybrid of a Pure Blue, RAISES the minimum cold water tolerance and would REDUCE it's potential establishment range.

There are almost endless examples of these biases being regurgitated to promote PITA-like agenda's. Does the ends justify the means...you can decide that.

The numerous research examples were mind boggling to me!

Thirdly, of the several dozens, if not hundreds of studies I'd read, I can NOT recall more than 2 or three that did any ACTUAL observation OR forensic causal study when claiming Tilapia displaced native species of aquatic life. To the contrary, virtually every study based its "facts" on unsupported "facts" contained in cited studies or the myriad of "maybe's" exampled earlier.

No offense to the small bit of GOOD science I could find out there, but clearly personal, ideologically motivated mis-statements of "facts" are pervasive, at least when it comes to native versus non-native species. IF the motivations are not ideologically driven, the authors are at a minimum, misrepresenting claims of fact and conclusion, basing their claims on, provably or proven inaccurate, data.

Meadowlark had some insight with his playing with Tilapia in his pond. George1 has possibly fallen in love with his Mozzie's and how they help him manage his pond for years now. George was also an inspiration for me, though I admit, I enjoy our occasional "debates" too! Todd Overton has been a leader in finding what that magic "suggested stocking rate" was for various goals, in Texas. Todd has also helped steer my path, when, and in ways I needed. Bill Cody has recorded a myriad of observations on what Tilapia eat and create in sport fish ponds. It was Bill that mentioned some of my Tilapia theories to someone that was my first, and remains my major purchaser.

I, with the help of each of those just mentioned, along with many others, and THIS website, took using Tilapia WAY beyond Texas and not only created and expanded an entirely new market for a much more cold tolerant species in northern waters, we are continually discovering new facts and still disproving long held "invasives" research all the time!

I can say that "technically", Tilapia DOES displace at least one genre of a "native aquatic species". In REALITY, contrary to the PAPER studies, when stocked properly, in the right sizes, species and numbers, Blue Tilapia north of the 30th parallel and Mozambique Tilapia south of that line and in all of Texas, WILL, simply stated, knock the holy crap out of most algae's and detritus, and increase the health, size and numbers of nearly every other species that "science', for years, has claimed the T will displace!!!

Tilapia are NOT a magic bullet in a pond, but I know of no other management tool that can do more good, be more versatile on goal attainment and produce more, larger fish for less money, NO labor or long term risk in a sport fish or trophy management pond. Supplemental feed alone can't do what tilapia can, aeration alone can't do what tilapia do, adding additional forage fish can't, beneficial bacteria alone can't do it!

Tilapia are a simply amazing tool! It is sad that so many states are controlled by backward, ideological, uninformed, unwilling, and/or authoritarian regulators that prevent the private pond owners of their individual states from having Tilapia in their management arsenal when wanted and needed.

The topic of this thread began asking "Tilapia Cost Questions". The answer depends! Actual dollar costs vary based on species, availability, order volume, transport and production expenses. those cost can be as low as $2.00/lb for a wholesale, 1000 pound order of food fish hybrid Niles that are virtually useless in a pond for algae control and/or forage production, to $40/lb for pure strain Blues that are custom stocked based on an on site survey, goal assessment and guarantee of annual goal attainment.

A better answer to this particular question would consider your particular pond, available sourcing, location and desired goals, then compare the cost of an annual Tilapia stocking to the seasonal costs of aeration, feed, chemicals, labor, etc.....you will almost certainly discover that at even the highest price I know of, $40/lb, you will spend less on tilapia that you would on "traditional" controls to attain your individual goals.


I wish I could name all those involved that pushed, challenged, questioned, doubted, supported, and helped me in countless ways...God, my partner Cathy, my daughters and grandkids, Bill Cody, Bob Lusk, Dave Davidson, Meadowlark, George, Scott (esshup), Eric (ewest), Dave Willis (amazing man!), Sunil, Todd Overton and Todd3138, Theo, Jhap, Dwight, TJ AaronM, Nate and Justin, Shawn Banks, Cecil...and every single member on this forum still with us or looking down from heaven now...Each one here, named or not has made a huge difference, for the better in pond management...the list will never stop growing...

In no way did I do this alone! I may have put a lot of it together and created a lot of infectious excitement, but every member here that helped me in some way, either directly, or even telling a friend..."try tilapia for that!".

My "Company Logo" is a cowboy, riding a Bucking Blue Tilapia. It reflected my Cowboy attitude and the rough ride I knew the fish business would be.

That ride continues....Thank God the new ride has air suspension to cushion my butt a little more now!

As for the Cowboy attitude? Well, it's still here, I don't get bucked off easily, but that will become another story for another time.......


Last edited by Rainman; 05/09/14 06:52 AM. Reason: Tired eyes typing...if you see a typo or something non-sensical, please PM me or maybe a mod will correct the obvious?


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"Changing one bacteria in a pond will change it's dynamics forever." How?

BTW, well said and done.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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Mr Lusk? Can we add a one finger emoticon for Dave's question?

Thank you sir!

Last edited by Rainman; 05/09/14 05:52 AM. Reason: Maybe I should try answering....could take weeks to read....


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