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#37326 - 12/27/05 08:34 PM Clorox cleared pond?
Canepole Offline
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Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 26
Loc: Bartlesville, Oklahoma
I have a small pond just uphill of the new 7-acre pond that I built. I did not want the fish of the small pond to contaminate the new one, so I Cloroxed it. The pond had always been very muddy, but then cattle were using it too. We took the cattle off and poisoned the pond, now it is gin clear.

My question is whether the Clorox somehow chelated the suspended clay, or did the death of the catfish and removal of the cattle result in all the clearing. Two other ponds were not Cloroxed and have also been free of cattle for the same amount of time, but they remain muddy. So it seems to be either a chemical chelation of some kind by the Clorox, or else the catfish are extremely effective at muddying a pond. Any opinions? Many thanks, Tom Pool

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#37327 - 12/27/05 09:04 PM Re: Clorox cleared pond?
Bill Cody Offline
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It is very possible that elimination of the "catfish" and or bullheads has resulted in dramatically less bottom feeding activity and sediment roiling. HOWEVER, the addition of chlorine (aka bleach or Chlorox) to natural waters which typically contain high amounts of various forms of organic particles (dissolved and suspended) will result in the production of high amounts of Trihalomethanes and similar volatile organic chemical contaminants such as bromodichloromethane, bromoform, chloroform, dibromochloromethane and haloacetic acids. These are fat soluable chemicals and are bioacumulative in the environment. They are typically stable and do not chemicially deteriorate and will pass from one organism to another up the food chain. BE careful how much fish you eat from this pond in the future. A search on Google will reveal more detailed information and the health hazards of trihalomethanes.
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#37328 - 12/28/05 09:25 AM Re: Clorox cleared pond?
Meadowlark Offline
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Registered: 03/09/04
Posts: 3075
Loc: East Texas
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bill Cody:
HOWEVER, the addition of chlorine (aka bleach or Chlorox) to natural waters which typically contain high amounts of various forms of organic particles (dissolved and suspended) will result in the production of high amounts of Trihalomethanes and similar volatile organic chemical contaminants such as bromodichloromethane, bromoform, chloroform, dibromochloromethane and haloacetic acids.
Bill,

Is the same true of our drinking water or are the Trihalomethanes somehow removed before hitting the drinking glass? Maybe bottled water is actually worth it.

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#37329 - 12/28/05 11:36 AM Re: Clorox cleared pond?
Theo Gallus Online   content
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Registered: 05/14/04
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Loc: Central Ohio
ML:

I'm pretty sure Chlorine is very seldom used for drinking water purification anymore, due to the side products BC mentioned and one related chemical he didn't mention, Carbon Tetrachloride. One process I have heard mentioned which is (was?) used (post-Chlorine era) to kill bacteria is some kind of "super-oxygenation." However, as a well-water user whose wife has been getting bottled water for drinking since the kids came along (chiefly for controlled rather than wildly fluctuating flourine levels, which can cause visible striations in growing teeth per our Dentist), I really don't know too much about recent developments.
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#37330 - 12/28/05 12:12 PM Re: Clorox cleared pond?
ewest Offline
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I don't know what is in our city water but can state for a fact that if you put it in an aquarium with out adding dechlor it will quickly kill BG and RES. \:o
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#37331 - 12/28/05 12:14 PM Re: Clorox cleared pond?
Meadowlark Offline
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Registered: 03/09/04
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Loc: East Texas
Theo,

In Houston, we are "downriver" from just about everyone in North America,,and if it isn't chlorine that I smell in the water, then it sure is a very close likeness.

Like you, I have well water at the country place and just like yours, my wife insists on bottled water there...even though there isn't another household tapping that water source within several miles. Probably could bottle that well water and sell it because it is that pure.

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#37332 - 12/28/05 04:43 PM Re: Clorox cleared pond?
Theo Gallus Online   content
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Registered: 05/14/04
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Loc: Central Ohio
Just in case my mainly ignorant position on this subject was unclear above, I would like to reiterate it.
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#37333 - 12/28/05 04:58 PM Re: Clorox cleared pond?
Meadowlark Offline
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Registered: 03/09/04
Posts: 3075
Loc: East Texas
\:D \:D \:D

But I'm still wondering about the water...maybe explains why I'm trying crazy things in my old age like GG's and Tilapia. \:\)

I did sell my Corvette, however, before I killed myself and a couple of cows.

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#37334 - 12/28/05 04:59 PM Re: Clorox cleared pond?
ewest Offline
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Theo :

You may well be correct. I did not mean to imply otherwise. I have no idea of what process is used to treat our water supply. The dechlor ( whatever the name is) I think is made to treat whatever is in normal public water supplies to keep it from killing fish. I know it treats more than just chlor. and that by not putting it in as I was supposed to I killed one set of BG/RES.
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#37335 - 12/28/05 05:05 PM Re: Clorox cleared pond?
Theo Gallus Online   content
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Registered: 05/14/04
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Eric:

FWIW I would not put straight civic water in an aquarium either. I don't even use the softened water plumbed through our house for that, just raw water from the well (and only on clear running days, sometimes it looks like clay soup).
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#37336 - 12/28/05 07:43 PM Re: Clorox cleared pond?
Bill Cody Offline
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ML & Theo, I am prety sure that Chlorine is currently used by almost all municipalities to treat domestic water. I am guessing that cities who use wells as a source water probably have to use very little chlorine for purification. THE MAIN DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE MUNICIPALITIES and Canepole's example are the amount of dissolved and or suspended organics in the treament water. The more organics present in the treatment water the more trihalomehtanes that are produced. A majority of the organics are REMOVED before municipal chlorination for purification thus domestic water supplies will usually have very, very low, if any trihalomethanes. However some trihalomethanaes are produced. EPA now requires public domestic water producers to monitor for chemicals in the trihalomethane family. The municipality that serves me water violated the EPA trihalomethane limits a couple times in 2005. Some cities are installing filters to remove the trihalomethanes.

A somewhat bigger problem is the chlorination of sewage water before it is discharged into receiving streams. That issue is also a current concern for EPA.
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#37337 - 12/28/05 08:05 PM Re: Clorox cleared pond?
Meadowlark Offline
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Registered: 03/09/04
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Loc: East Texas
Thank you Bill. Helpful information.

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#37338 - 12/28/05 10:01 PM Re: Clorox cleared pond?
Theo Gallus Online   content
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Ditto.
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#37339 - 12/28/05 11:40 PM Re: Clorox cleared pond?
jdpool Offline
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Registered: 10/30/05
Posts: 4
Loc: Lawton, Oklahoma
I am Canepole's brother and I now have another question. The biologist that reccommended using the bleach rather than rotoenone said the bleach will all be dissipated in five days. Would it be wise to go ahead and stock it with shiners and Hybrid blugill and also can we stock fatheads along with shiners and BG? Can the stocking take place now if the fish are available or should we wait till spring.
JD Pool

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#37340 - 12/29/05 08:06 PM Re: Clorox cleared pond?
ewest Offline
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Registered: 03/08/05
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JD :

Welcome to the forum. Which of you is older. \:D A couple points to consider until Bill or one of the endg. gets back to this thread. First little if any fish growth occurs during cold water periods. Second I am pretty sure the chlorine killed all the plankton in the pond along with everything else. I don't know how long that will take to recover in cold water. With out it your small fish will have nothing to eat unless you are going to feed them. Have you had any rain since you bleached the pond or water turnover? I would not be in a hurry for at least a couple weeks at least. There may be a couple steps that will aid in the recovery in the meantime.
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#37341 - 12/29/05 08:14 PM Re: Clorox cleared pond?
Bill Cody Offline
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The biologist is correct that the active chlorine concentrations (acutely toxic form) are decreased fairly rapidly. The chorine does dissipate but the dissipation process involves it becoming "reformulated" or absorbed/bound to create other stable chemicals that I mentioned above. Your biologist advisor should be advised to study up on the recently discovered (last 15-20 yrs) affects of the behavior of free radicals/ions of chlorine when introduced into the aquatic environment. The older text of Fish Hatchery Management (Dept of Interior, US Fish & Wildlife Service)does mention the use of chlorine as a bacterial disinfectant and wild fish control. This is old, outdated technology. I am pretty sure that the current US Fish & Wildlife guidelines have now changed due to EPA mandates.

Forage fish can be stocked now or in spring. Very little fish growth will occur between now and spring. I advise spring as a better time for restocking because remember that the chlorine application "nuked" the pond and severly reduced numbers of all forms of small and large food items for the fish. The absence of these tiny fish food items is partly why your pond water is now clear. Fish, even forage fish, need lots of appropriate sized food items for normal health and growth. A later stocking would allow more time for the repopulation of these natural fish food items. Recolonization of bacteria and microinvertebrates may take a couple months until the biological community (ecosystem) begins on the path to "normal standards".

Keep in mind that all fish in this pond, depending on their position in the food chain, will accumulate available trihalomehanes as deposits in their body. The bad part of the trihalomethnes is the darn things keep recycling in the ecosystem that contains them. They do not dissipate like the chlorine does.
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#37342 - 12/29/05 09:21 PM Re: Clorox cleared pond?
ewest Offline
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Registered: 03/08/05
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Bill :

Do you think that it would help the recolonization effort for JD to ,in a few days , add a few 5 gal. buckets of water from his other pond to this one to jump start the bacteria and plankton pool ?
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#37343 - 12/29/05 10:37 PM Re: Clorox cleared pond?
jdpool Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/30/05
Posts: 4
Loc: Lawton, Oklahoma
Sounds to me like I took some bad advice. If you can't rely on the govt bio guys, who do you look to?
JD Pool

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#37344 - 12/29/05 10:46 PM Re: Clorox cleared pond?
Bruce Condello Offline
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Pond Boss the magazine, editor Bob Lusk, Pond Boss forum members, etc. etc. etc. ;\)
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#37345 - 12/29/05 10:57 PM Re: Clorox cleared pond?
Dave Davidson Offline
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Registered: 04/22/02
Posts: 1892
Loc: Hurst & Bowie Texas
Bill Cody, I dumped about 140 pounds of chlorine in my one acre pond to unsuccessfully try to rid it of tanins when I first built it. At that time it had less than 1/2 acre of water about 7 ft. deep. Finally I pumped it dry and let a Texas summer really dry it out. It stayed dry for about 6 months or so until spring rains filled it.

This is the first that I've heard of residuals. We've eaten the fish and, so far, haven't grown any extra fingers or ears. I think it would be wise for me to take a water sample and send it to Texas A & M for analysis. It would be ironic if I couldn't get enough to kill the tanins and it killed me.

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#37346 - 12/30/05 11:20 AM Re: Clorox cleared pond?
Bill Cody Offline
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JDP - You wrote "If you can't rely on the govt bio guys, who do you look to?" Often you shoud get a second opinion. Professional advisors are not all knowing. As you discovered, second opinions can be informative and result in two differnt answers. Sometimes there is no definite or exact answer. Some topics are very complicated and you have to do what you think is best in your situation.

Dave, a water sample may not reveal presence of trihalomethanes since they are not water soluable, but fat soluable and deposited in tissue. I think if you want to check for their accumulated concentrations, the fish tissue (predators)should be analyzed; similar as tests for PCB's, mercury, etc. The analysis lab would be able to better advise you on this topic. This is a fairly new science and I don't even think the EPA has even established limits for accumulations in animals. Many manmade chemicals are present in the environment and I don't think we as a society know very much about their long term affects and the affects of their chemical recombinations have on our health. It is an ongoing science.


Since you and Canepole only used chlorine once in the pond, the concentrations of chlorine residuals may not be at toxic or harmful levels. The danger comes when chlorination processes are routine procedures. Many manmade chemicals are not toxic at very low concentrations, but if they can accumulate and be stored in tissues then long term exposure can become a problem.
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#37347 - 12/31/05 10:47 AM Re: Clorox cleared pond?
Bill Cody Offline
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ewest - It would be okay to add one to several buckets of water from one of his other ponds to the pond that was "nuked". This would reseed some of the microscopic organisms that would stimulate the bottom of the food chain. It is best to do this when nuisance forms of algae blooms are not occurring. There are definately periods when the pond water is dominated by less than desirable types of algae.

The disadvantages of doing this would be that he might introduce some nuisance algae types that are present in the donor pond. Numerous species of nuisance algae are usually present in most ponds all the time but their densities are very rare or scarse. When pond conditions change and favor their growth then nuisance species bloom.

Research has shown that the "nuked" or devistated ponds will naturally recover pretty rapidly in terms of recolonization of the microscopic biological community. Mount St. Helens is a good example on the large scale. Most new ponds quickly develop the basics of a food chain without help from humans. By spring the natural recolonization of Canepole's pond will be well on its way to recovery without the addition of extra reseed water.

The organisms that may not recolonize very rapidly are things like freshwater shrimp, clams, specialized invertebrates and fish.
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#37348 - 01/08/06 11:46 PM Re: Clorox cleared pond?
jdpool Offline
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Registered: 10/30/05
Posts: 4
Loc: Lawton, Oklahoma
Thanks for all the advice. I thimnk in the future I will run any of my wild ideas by this forum before doing. Thanks again.
JDP

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#37349 - 01/09/06 08:15 AM Re: Clorox cleared pond?
bobad Offline
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Registered: 06/02/05
Posts: 2365
Loc: Eunice, Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by J.D. Pool:
Sounds to me like I took some bad advice. If you can't rely on the govt bio guys, who do you look to?
JD Pool
Not to worry about that.

It was a 1 time thing, and there won't be much accumulation. What you should worry about are constant sources of contamination, such as bleach water seepage from your septic system, if that is applicable. Then you could have some accumulation.

Meanwhile, the clear water in your pond will allow sunlight in, and the sunlight will quickly degrade almost any chemical compounds it can get to. Given enough time, nature is much better at healing itself than given credit for.
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