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#372764 04/17/14 10:43 AM
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Hey All,
I am new here and this is my first post (Sorry it will be long). I have done a bunch of reading over the last few days on this site and am impressed by the helpfulness of people here.

I am trying to get my system set up well but will give a bit of background.

My wife and I purchased our home 3 years ago now. The pond of the property is about a 1/4 acre maybe a tad more. Oval in shape (Approx 60'x180'). It's about 7' deep on one end and about 12' on the other.

There was an aeration system when we got here. The compressor is at the house under an roofed deck with about a 300' run to the pond with 1.25" black poly pipe run underground to the pond running to one stone type stick diffuser in the deepest part of the pond.

The pump was old and loud so we didn't run it this past year and had a significant amount of weed growth over last summer and a significant fish kill this winter.

I just purchased a rebuilt compressor from a local source (Thomas 2650) and a cheap ring diffuser just to get me going again. I split the line down at the pond so I could run the old and new diffuser on both ends of the pond.

Since reading on here I am convinced I need a check valve, pressure gauge, and relief valve. I will also be purchasing a vertex diffuser from ForeverGreen as these seem to be the best. I am hoping I can use my current compressor and somehow put the check valve, pressure gauge, and relief valve on it.

Any suggestion are appreciated on how to go about this. I would like not to have to run another line from the compressor to the pond and am hoping splitting it at the pond is ok.

Currently I size up to the 1.25" about 6' from the compressor and then down to 3/8" split at the pond. At the pond there is 3/8" weighted line running 25' out on the deep side of the pond (12" deep) and about 70' of 3/8" at the split running along the shore to the shallow side and the 25' of weighted out to the 7' depth.

All suggestions are appreciated. And Thanks ahead of time.

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At the pond, make a manifold. 1.25" line going in one end, "T" off a couple ball valves, and attach the line from each diffuser to the ball valve. That way you can regulate the amount of air to each diffuser. I'd make sure I had at least one extra "T" so you could bleed off extra air if needed. Put the manifold in a box to protect it from the elements.


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Should the check valve, pressure gauge and the relief valve be at the compressor or the at the pond where I make the manifold?

Just thinking, it seems they would all be best at the compressor but if I am wrong it would be easy to put them in a box by the pond.

I should have mentioned that right now I have an inline ball valve in the 3/8" tubing leading to each diffuser. However, I have no idea of what I have for pressure anywhere in my system.

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compressor


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Scott,

I've done both with no issues.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Thanks for the help so far. I am looking forward to learning and doing this as right as I can with what I have.

What kind of pressure should I be looking for at the compressor? All I know for specs is I believe it is 5.4 cfm open flow 30psi max.

The Thomas 2650 has two 1/4" outputs on it. Right now I have a plug in one. Can I put the pressure gauge on the compressor outlet opposite the output for the airline or should I build a manifold so that the pressure gauge can be on the same outlet as the airline?

Also, any suggestions for a relief valve? Would an adjustable air compressor pressure relief valve work? I have a couple 0-100 psi ones already.

Last edited by Nate S; 04/18/14 10:54 AM.
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Per Thomas' website for the current 2660 model, they run 4.6cfm at 0 psi down to 3.6cfm at 40 psi which is max continuous pressure rating.

That said, it is a positive displacement pump. It will generate the pressure required to deliver the massflow. Essentially, the line and diffuser losses. It will vary totally with what you hook on.

As max pressure occurs at the pump and that is what you want to protect, regulate there. From the photos, it looks like the two heads are manifolded together across the top of the unit. You could put the gauge on one output port and discharge from the other, pressures should be pretty much the same. At max flow, you would likely get a little more out of it if you discharge from both outlets and manifold together using larger than 1/4" tubing as you'd avoid losses through the manifold between heads and have lower velocity/loss than via single outlet.

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Ballpark figure go with .5 psi for every foot of diffuser depth. Also, look at the volume of air that you are pumping vs. length of run for that particular size tubing. Smaller dia has more friction. Like trying to breathe thru a straw vs. a 1 1/4" piece of tubing.


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Thanks for the continued responses. Looks like I have some figuring out to do but think I am on the right track.

I will be picking some stuff up to make a manifold and will see what kind of pressure reading I get. I am sure I will have more questions.

Thanks for helping me get this under way.

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Any recommendations for a check valve and pressure relief valve? Trying to figure out what will work.

Also, is it possible to aerate too much?

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In the water, you preferably want a check valve that does not have a spring. Springs underwater tend to clog, corrode and cause malfunction. Check valves underwater should be cleaned annually for dependable operation. Some commercial diffusers have built in check valves. Do due diligence.

I prefer adjustable pressure relief valve to optimize the pressure relief for the type of compressor and aeration system.

Aerating too much - all depends. Too strong of aeration, as in sewage treatment and turning your pond into a 'blender', keeps fine detritus particles in suspension causing turbid water but relative fast decomposition of organics. If the aeration system is sized 'properly' then operation of 24/7 is suggested mainly to error on the conservative side and cover most all cases. I prefer to slightly over size the system and then run the system on a timer to reduce electrical costs yet maintain adequate oxygen on the bottom. There are many exceptions. Each pond similar to humans is different in age, history, chemistry, and nutrient budgets thus it is hard to promote blanket statements.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 04/21/14 09:23 AM.

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Is it better than to have the check valve in the water vs at the compressor? I am planning on buying two vertex diffusers this month which I believe have the check valves in them. Any reason to run one at the pump?
Will a standard, adjustable air compressor pressure relief valve work?

I went from having a clear weed free pond to in the last two summers (record heat and sunny) having weed filled can't to the point it's unfishable.

I believe much of that is my fault as I only ran the aerator on the hottest days and not at all in the winter do to the compressor being noisy.

That said, the water clarity is still very good even with the new compressor running two cheap diffusers at this point. There is good visibility down to around 8ft and then you see decaying weeds.

I am hoping by running the aerator and raking the bottom I can prevent those weeds from turning into muck and prevent some regrowth. There is not much muck currently on the bottom less than 3 inches at this point.

As long as over aerating won't hurt anything thing I would rather have too much than not enough. It only cost me about $12 per month to run the compressor so that is not a concern.

A lot to learn here. Thanks for all the help.

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I suppose any standard adjustable pressure relief will work. I only an familiar with the one sold by GAST Mfg with 3/8" threads. From the factory it is set for full relief at 15psi. Maximum setting would be around 25psi. If depth of operation is greater than 30ft then another type pressure relief would be better.

A pond from clear to weedy can be due to several things but it is likely that too little aeration caused the excess 'weedy' condition. Type of weeds is the main factor to consider. Are weeds filamentous algae of rooted vegetation with leaves stems and roots?

Excess weed growth very often results in clear water as you are noting.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 04/21/14 08:30 PM.

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I think it's Curly Leaf but not 100% sure. It is that type anyhow.

I just installed a pressure gauge at the compressor and it is reading 3psi. If I stop the flow by pinching off the hose for a second it jumps over 30psi. Not sure how to understand the pressure ratings. The pump is 4.5cfm open flow I believe.

I talked to Ted Lea today and will be ordering a pair of single disc Vertex diffusers. One for each side of the pond.

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A positive displacement pump will increase pressure to maintain the volumetric flow if you backpressure it. That isn't great for life to deadhead it. You want to keep it at low pressure.

I sent some questions to the mfgr as I was curious. They responded with some very useful info. I'd be thinking about his advice on moisture control and rebuild intervals.

The piston pump is a good choice for pond aeration. The 2668 is a two
headed pump with an integral manifold that connects the two heads in
parallel. On the attached drawing you'll see there is one inlet connection
(that allows incoming air to enter both heads at the same time, and one
discharge connection. Therefore, we are adding the flow each head
together. You could 'T' into the discharge line for a pressure gauge.

This pump is rated for continuous duty and can run 24/7. Pump life depends
a lot on the operating pressure and pump operating temperature. The higher
the discharge pressure, the more pressure is placed on the piston seal
forcing it against the cylinder and creating more friction. Also, the
higher discharge pressures create higher operating temperatures. The
installation must have as much cooling air as possible - the cooler the
pump runs, the longer the piston cup will last.

The piston cup is the main wear item. It is a Teflon impregnated compound.
I would expect at least a years worth of running continuous in a good
installation, and as much as 3 years in the right conditions. I would plan
on a rebuild once a year, but monitor how the pump does to see if you can
stretch this. One other note of caution - piston pumps do not handle
moisture at all. If any liquid gets into the pump, the piston seal can
wear out in a matter of days. Please make sure to mount the pump so that
the discharge line is piped down so that when/if the pump stops and
condensation occurs due to cooling, it will not flow back into the pump.
You may want to consider a discharge check valve to prevent any backflow.

I would suggest a tube ID of no less than the discharge port size (1/4"),
and certainly stepping up to 3/8" or 1/2" will reduce pressure drop, but
not significantly at this low flow.

Your other choices for pumps would be a rotary vane or a diaphragm pump.
These tend to be more expensive and don't offer any advantage from a life
standpoint. However, the diaphragm pump can handle moisture better than
any of the other two.

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Good info, thanks for posting that.

My entire system runs downhill so I guess I am good there. The pump sits in our carport so has good ventilation and stays dry other than humidity. I will probably install a check valve at the pump output to be safe.

Right now both ports are manifolded together as from the factory. One input is open with a muffler and filter. One output is open going from the 1/4" up to 5/8 for 10' then to the 1.25" black poly which runs 300' to the pond.

Off the output I have two 1/2" T's with a pressure gauge on one and a relief valve on the other.

At the pond is probably my weak point as the line downsizes to 3/8". 50' of weighted to one diffuser in 12' of water and 100' to the other in about 7' of water.

I just bought two Vertex diffusers from Ted Lea that came today which will replace the two stone sticks in the pond now so that should increase the efficiency.

Hoping the 3/8" ID line at the pond isn't an issue and I'm not even sure in a .25 acre pond I need two diffusers running 24/7 but that's the plan for now. Hoping over aeration isn't an issue.

Not even sure I am doing any of this right but at least I am learning.

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Only running 3 psi nominal kinda indicates most all the air is going through your 7' diffuser and very little to your 12' diffuser, plus your 300' run loss is tenths of a psi (good). To get to your 12' deep diffuser, it would take (62.4 lbs/cu ft * 12 ft / 144 sq in/sq ft)=5.2 psi. Then you have the diffuser loss to add in, so you'd be seeing 6 psi or so. Such a system would take the path of least resistance in the vernacular, and go out the shallow leg. You don't mention valves at your split to regulate flow. May want to add a simple ball valve on each leg and close down the shallow leg a little. Your goal might be to have equal flow thru each leg and that would require an additional pressure drop on the shallow side to equal the added depth on the deep leg.

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Nick is right here you should have a ball valve or gang valve to regulate flow if your going to run both of them. Unless your pond is very oddly shaped I would say no you don't need both fusers running in that size pond. The 12 foot one should be fine. Move the other one to about 3 feet and use it in the winter to keep an open hole for air to help your fish get the D.O. they need in the winter. You could still use gang valve to swap over or you could just dissconnect one hose and put the 3 foot hose on in the winter time.

Good Luck,
RC


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The pond is a standard oval shape. I do have inline shutoff valves in the lines to each diffuser so I can regulate/shut off flow.

My main reason for running both right now is trying to speed up the decay process of the weeds that grew the last 2 summers. I figured since I already had a fish kill and looks like almost total I wanted to try to get the weeds under control.

My plan for the future is exactly what you mention. Run the diffuser in the 12' section in summer and at about 3' in the winter.

One thing I am still wondering is can you over aerate a pone to the point of damaging it?

I certainly do appreciate all the help.

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I am no expert but I have not ever heard of that? A lot of folks run their systems 24/7 once you have saturated your pond with D.O. to the point where it can not hold anymore your basically runnning your system to maintain that level. Once air is established I have never heard of anyone losing fish because of over aeration keep in mind I said I have never heard of it. I am not 100 percent positive. Most of the time the big concern is getting your air started and running up to speed without hurting any fish. Once that is done your good to go from everything I have read. Think about this. I have had a 200 gallon fish tank I had LOTS of air running it it 24/7 and it never hurt those fish.

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New development.

I hooked up one of my Vertex diffusers and lowered it on the 7ft side. My psi gauge then went up to 10psi and the relief valve was going off.

I disconnected it and went back to the old stick/stone diffuser and it drops down to 6psi which is still higher than the 3psi it was running before. Not sure what changed.

Any thoughts?

I did add drain the pond down about 3ft due to the fish kill so I can clean up some cattails and added some fluridone and blue uv dye to try to take care of some of the curly pond weed. Can't imagine any of this would cause an issue.

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The Vertex diffuser might not need all the air that your compressor is producing. How many cfm are you trying to shove thru the diffuser?


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Originally Posted By: esshup
The Vertex diffuser might not need all the air that your compressor is producing. How many cfm are you trying to shove thru the diffuser?


Good point. Not sure how many cfm are going to the diffuser. The compressor is rated at 4.5 open flow. Not sure what that equates at the run I am making.

Is there a way to figure the cfm output at the end of the run?

Thanks

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Give Ted Lea a shout. He should know.


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Ted Lea will also advise with this. The increased pressure of both the V.diffuser and stone could be due to a kinked air hose or blockage in the hose. You may have kinked the hose under water. Something is causing restriction of air flow, thus increased pressure reading. Take the diffusers off the hose and see if the psi is 0 with hose end out of water. It should be 0 or very close to it. Figure out what is restricting air flow and you will solve your problem. A dual V.diffuser assembly should easily handle 4.5 cfm. Although at 7 ft deep you will probably not be producing 4.5cfm, more closer to 3.8-4cfm. CFM at various depths will depend on type of compressor.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 04/27/14 01:51 PM.

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