Pond Boss Forums FISH & FISHING Fly Fishing & Other Fish Species FHM Sanity Check

Got some of these from the gas station. I wanna make sure they are FHM and not shiners. Sorry for the less than ideal picture. He was flopping around and it was the best I could do. Please comment.

Body wise it looks like a shiner in my opinion. Can you put one in a jar of water and take a picture of it showing the fins?

100% not FHM... 100% sure it is a GSH.

Thanks guys. Is there such a beast as a non golden shiner or do they not get golden till old age or tannin filled water?

Jim, back in 1960 I was teaching Vertebrate Natural History Labs for my major professor, Dr. Robert Packard. We seined the creeks in our neck of the East Texas woods and the silver shiner ,Notrophis photogenis, was a common specimen. The bait dealer trucks that supply the bait camps here sell them by the millions in the spring and summer. I believe that is what you have. It is a ray finned minnow and bright silver in color.
Tom Sterling

There's different types of shiners (Emerald, etc.) but the Golden Shiners turn gold when they are adults and in breeding condition.


Take a look at the fish in your hand. See how the lateral line really dips down once is's past the pectoral fin? That's another identifier of a GSH. CJ, is it limited to GSH or are there others that have the dip?

Thanks again guys.

Look at the lateral line, on GSH it starts up high and drops down low. One of the major indicators in IDing that species. The photo you posted of your fish Jim, that lateral line screams GSH... So do all the other features. Plus, you bought it from a bait shop in Florida. GSH are king in FL when it comes to bait... Both large and small.



As far as the silver shiner, it is a distinct species from the GSH. It is found in the eastern part of the Mississippi drainage. It is not found in any western drainages of the Mississippi system, meaning it is not found in Texas. Tom, are you sure it was the silver shiner you were catching or another species? There are several in that family that look much alike and are closely related. The silverband shiner is my best guess as to which species you may have been collecting in east Texas. The chub shiner could also be a possibility.

Dang near every Texas bait shop sells shiners of one kind of another. I'm not aware of any of them selling fatheads.

Is there any type of FHM that could have crossed with shiners? I have these odd minnows in my pond that we got from a local trout farm that said they were FHM. Now the strange thing is these minnows spawn like FHM very prolific but really have the look of a shiner and no real fat head to them at all.

The reason I ask is because I have been told over and over that shiners emerald shiners will not spawn or reproduce in a pond. I am just shocked at how many of these minnows we have and they seam to multiply very very well in our perch pond.

Pictures taken with the minnows in a zip lock bag.

Cheers Don.

Dono - 1. FHM will not cross with shiners basically because they are from two different genera. Individuals from different fish genera do not reproduce together to my knowledge. Taxonomic features of each genus are normally reproductive barriers which helps define a genus.

2. those are some sort of shiner. Maybe and likely they are some of the younger common shiners that are reproducing in your pond. Many shiners have very similar appearance. CJBS may be able to help with this identification? I am very hesitant to ID similar looking fish from photographs. Separation of the very similar one sometimes requires fin ray counts, body measurements and specialized characters that are not visible from a casual photograph. Often, at least for me, the fish needs to be in-hand and examined closely with a dissection microscope for a positive ID. For me to give you a confirmation of species I would need to have a few pickled individuals sent to me.

CJBS, you are definitely right about the Notropis photogenis. It has been over 50 years since I was actively involved in field studies and I have slipped a little. I agree with Essup about the lateral line. That is the clincher for this specimen to be GSH. Incidentally, if you want to read about a really fine biologist from the past, Google Dr. Robert Packard. He was a great mentor and friend. He offered me an opportunity that I failed to take and I have had many regrets over the years. I made a lot more money but at a cost for satisfaction and probably happiness.
Tom Sterling

Bill is correct, I am unaware of any hybrids involving FHM with any other species. Hybridization in the Cyprinidae(minnows) family is quite common though. Even among some not so closely related species. This is due to spawning areas being shared and milt and eggs getting all mixed up. You especially see this in many of the stream dwelling minnows(shiners, daces, etc) that spawn over the nests of some of the larger chub species.

However, FHM spawn in a very different manner and thus, hybridization would involve mistaken identity. This is unlikely and would have to involve a close relative like the bluntnose minnow and slim minnow.

The fish in your photos appears to be as already suspected, YOY common shiners. I have kept them in aquaria and caught 1000's while seining so I am very familiar with them. Process of elimination makes it highly likely, that is what they are.

Even with hybridization being fairly common, I can count on 2 hands the number of natural hybrids I have been able to firmly ID from wild fish while out collecting. This excludes areas I have collected in the southeast where the introduced red shiner is hybridizing like crazy in streams where it has been newly introduced. There, the hybrids outnumber either parent species. This is not natural though...

My guess agrees with CJBS for the name of Dono's shiners in a bag. They are likely some of last year's recruitment of the common shiner. Moving water and a water fall must be important features for spawning of common shiner. Very good information to know. How long each day during the summer do you operate the water fall?