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#373191 04/20/14 01:09 PM
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This is the Google earth location of our club pond.

41°18'46.08" N 82°15'21.60" W

Zoom in and you will see that trees almost surround the entire pond. Most of the big ones are cottonwoods with willows mixed in.

On the east side there is a low spot that is full of water in the spring through June. The only water supply is the field to the east.

We have a large problem with too many nutrients. While we cannot do anything about the farm next door, we can deal with some of it. Those tree's drop a mass of leaved in the pond, which decay over the following summer. That causes too much phosphorus and carbon to be in the water.

We also have a major problem with watermeal. Since no wind can get to the surface it is like glass much of the time. A high nutrient load and still water is the perfect medium to grow watermeal. I have cleared it by filtration and seen if completely cover back up in 10 days.

Some are saying to spray Sonar AS on it, also with some Diquate. I am against that. First we need to do remediation the issue with the tree's, yes I mean cut them down. Then we need to use that cove as a buffer with Pickerel weed and cattails. Pickerel weed has the highest level of nutrient sequestration. Let it grow then cut it and remove the cuttings. That will remove the nutrients.

The banks are steep so that will somewhat limit growth, and I'm not worried about cutting it as needed. I'd rather cut it than fish in a chemical soup. Plus, they charge to apply those chemicals.

Treating the pond with chemicals is simply treating symptoms rather than causes. I want to treat the causes. Sonar AS will kill every visceral plant, even what we might want.

So the choice is to leave the trees and deal with the issues, or cut the dern things down and work on the issues.

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if you cut the trees down are the roots of the trees running across the pond dam if so as they rot it could be a place where water could leak out over time I have this problem now in one of my ponds just something to think about

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garryc:

Before adding cattails, reasearch how to keep them under control and if they arent' in your pond now, make durn sure you are willing and able to do what it takes to keep them under control. If not, if left unchecked, over time they will be worse than the trees around the pond.


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As far as a dam, we don't have one. One side drops off slowly and I do worry about the roots of a willow on that side a bit. The vast bulk of the trees are on the inlet, or high side.

As far as dealing with excessive cattails, we would use a weed razor and call a work party. Cut them, pull out the cuttings and bag them for my garden.

We don't have near the shallows seen here, Our sides drop off pretty fast
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=373232#Post373232

One question, Does the Sonar AS kill those trees on a single use or over multiple years?

Last edited by garryc; 04/20/14 05:18 PM.
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For the amount of trees around the pond, you're better off planning on using a chainsaw. It looks like there are less than 10 from the aerial view that contribute the most to the leaf load in the pond. The pond looks to be roughly .41 surface acres. With the pond being over 20 years old, there's a lot of organic material built up in the pond. If it's deeper than 10', there won't be much active bacteria breaking down the leaf load during the summer after a thermocline sets up. To help with future organic build-up, look at installing an aeration system to keep O2 levels high near the bottom of the pond. That will allow aerobic bacteria to work on the leaves all year long.

With the size of those trees, I don't know if Sonar will kill them at 90 PPB dosage rates.

How deep is the pond?

Unfortuantely, like you alluded to, just planting the Pickerel Weed and Cattails won't fix the existing problem, which is too many nutrients in the pond. The only way to get rid of them is to drain (or pump out the water with a gasoline powered trash pump), take out the accumulated organic material and let it refill with water. Before you let it refill with water, even tho it's a small area, dig a settling pond to the East, fill that with cattails to filter out as much sediment and nutrients as possible before the water hits the pond. Keep the cattails in that settling pond, and out of the main pond. There are other plants that are more suited to ponds without the downsides of cattails.

With the pond being at the most 90' wide, once it's drained down a long stick excavator can reach the whole pond bottom by working it's way around the pond. Build up the East side a bit, create a settling pond, and set the settling pond overflow to drain into the main pond. It looks like you have the area to dispose of the organic material on-site, or talk to the farmer to the East about spreading it out in his field after the crops are harvested in the Fall.

No worries about "chemical soup" as the chemicals break down over time and pose no threats to fish, wildlife or humans.

By trying to utilize plants to remove nutrients, it will take many, many years (if it's possible at all in that situation due to the field run-off) to remove the excess nutrients. Depending on the amount of runoff, you could be at a stalemate every year with the amount of nutrients coming into the pond and utilized by the plants. You'll have a much faster result, and you will be assured of accomplishing your goals of a clean pond by going the mechanical sediment removal route.

As for the fish in the pond, with it being under 1/2 acre, it won't cost a lot to restock, even with advanced sizes of fish.


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Originally Posted By: esshup
For the amount of trees around the pond, you're better off planning on using a chainsaw. It looks like there are less than 10 from the aerial view that contribute the most to the leaf load in the pond. The pond looks to be roughly .41 surface acres. With the pond being over 20 years old, there's a lot of organic material built up in the pond. If it's deeper than 10', there won't be much active bacteria breaking down the leaf load during the summer after a thermocline sets up. To help with future organic build-up, look at installing an aeration system to keep O2 levels high near the bottom of the pond. That will allow aerobic bacteria to work on the leaves all year long.

With the size of those trees, I don't know if Sonar will kill them at 90 PPB dosage rates.

How deep is the pond?

Unfortuantely, like you alluded to, just planting the Pickerel Weed and Cattails won't fix the existing problem, which is too many nutrients in the pond. The only way to get rid of them is to drain (or pump out the water with a gasoline powered trash pump), take out the accumulated organic material and let it refill with water. Before you let it refill with water, even tho it's a small area, dig a settling pond to the East, fill that with cattails to filter out as much sediment and nutrients as possible before the water hits the pond. Keep the cattails in that settling pond, and out of the main pond. There are other plants that are more suited to ponds without the downsides of cattails.

With the pond being at the most 90' wide, once it's drained down a long stick excavator can reach the whole pond bottom by working it's way around the pond. Build up the East side a bit, create a settling pond, and set the settling pond overflow to drain into the main pond. It looks like you have the area to dispose of the organic material on-site, or talk to the farmer to the East about spreading it out in his field after the crops are harvested in the Fall.

No worries about "chemical soup" as the chemicals break down over time and pose no threats to fish, wildlife or humans.

By trying to utilize plants to remove nutrients, it will take many, many years (if it's possible at all in that situation due to the field run-off) to remove the excess nutrients. Depending on the amount of runoff, you could be at a stalemate every year with the amount of nutrients coming into the pond and utilized by the plants. You'll have a much faster result, and you will be assured of accomplishing your goals of a clean pond by going the mechanical sediment removal route.

As for the fish in the pond, with it being under 1/2 acre, it won't cost a lot to restock, even with advanced sizes of fish.



We looked at dredging, got bids on it, no way we could afford it. 4 years ago I put in aeration, since then the pond has increased in depth 2-1/2 feet. Our aeration is a bit aggressive.

This pond was dug in 1961, we had looked at increasing it's size and the soil and water people said no. In fact they said under current standards they would allow the one that is there.

Three of the cottonwood trees are 50 feet tall or so, three two others are about 30 feet tall and there are a few smaller. That cove has some maples and oaks in it and a whole bunch of willow that runs up to 6 inches in diameter.

On the west side are pines. Not that they add anything to the pond litter wise, but they block the wind.

There is no other water source than the run off from that field. The real problems started when he spread AG lime two years ago. Not that it is the full cause of the watermeal problem, but it sure adds to it.

On of the biggest issues in this club is that we try to run this by democratic process. Instead of assigning a manager or a committee they want every issue voted on by the body. So, you have to try and educate 70 or so people at a meeting of the issues when they do not have to ability to pay attention and don't really want to learn.

If they ever gave me the authority to manage the pond the very first thing I would do is clear cut around that pond. Now that one big issue is gone then we can get to work on the rest. I've flat told them, cut those stupid garbage trees down or find someone else to work on it.

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Sort of like working with a Home Owners Association.

With that many people in the club, does anyone know how to run heavy equipment? Rent a 3" trash pump. Pump pond down. Look into heavy equipment rental places. You can rent a long stick excavator, and it'll be quicker than dredging it out. If it's planned and coordinated, 2-3 days after the pond is drained the equipment would be turned back in. Here a long stick with a 70' reach rents for $1,350 day, then you have delivery fees, diesel and taxes. Then you might need a dump truck or wheel loader to spread out the spoils.

It all depends on the clubs goals.


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Originally Posted By: esshup
Sort of like working with a Home Owners Association.

With that many people in the club, does anyone know how to run heavy equipment? Rent a 3" trash pump. Pump pond down. Look into heavy equipment rental places. You can rent a long stick excavator, and it'll be quicker than dredging it out. If it's planned and coordinated, 2-3 days after the pond is drained the equipment would be turned back in. Here a long stick with a 70' reach rents for $1,350 day, then you have delivery fees, diesel and taxes. Then you might need a dump truck or wheel loader to spread out the spoils.

It all depends on the clubs goals.


One of the things we looked at was dealing with the spoils of the dredge. Normally you can haul it off and dump it, except we can't. They shot the turkey shoot over the pond for a couple decades. While there was a shield most of that time still much lead shot fell in the water. Plus they had a trap range that partly went over the pond.

I did take samples of bottom, I did find a good amount of lead shot. That makes the spoils of a dredge hazardous waste.

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When I fist planted trees around my pond I only planted pines and spruces on the prevailing windward side so leaves wouldn't be blowing into the pond. And planted leaf bearing tree on the wind downward side so the leaves would blow away from the pond. So if you cut your cottonwoods and want trees in the future you can do this. I have since broken this rule because I like the looks of weeping willows around water.


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There is a lake near me that needs to be dredged, and they are running into the same thing with the hazardous material thing. Different reason, but the same obstacle. Its a developed lake with houses all around it, so no place to put the spoils. Can't haul it on the roadway for fear of "dropping" some, so that option is out.

What I am getting at: Is there an option to dig a pit near the pond to put the spoils into? Use the dirt that comes out of the pit to redirect the bad run-off from the farm. Or, would the farmer allow you to put the spoils on his property? That way you go directly there without involving any outside authorities.

It still don't negate the fact it costs money, and possibly the quotes you got already considered these options.

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If you can spread the spoils on the ground directly South of the pond, let them dry, then call in a lead recycling company, the lead shot can be reclaimed. There is a machine out that takes the top layer of soil, and separates it from lead shot. The guy with the machine recycles the lead shot, and resells it. I lived in So. Ca. and it was done on the skeet/trap field there, and a guy that I know said that it was done on his club fields in S.C. too, so either one guy travels the country doing it or there is more than one machine out there.


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It still gets down to money. even after our turkey shoot season and after all dues and fee's are paid we only have $46,000. While we pick up a little from functions, not much, that is what we have to operate on for the year.

There is not a constant or consistent flow of water into the pond. Once the spring rains are done that is about it. So, at that point, what we have is what we have. Once that farmer plows and plants there is no more flow.

One thought I had was to remove the trees and deepen and widen that area to about two feet deep. That would allow a large amount of plants that sequester phosphorus to grow and would slow any water causing it to drop its silt. Not that there is any really.

On the farmers side of that tree line is a depression. That tree line is a hump. Most of any water coming in filters through that hump. A good deal of it gets diverted into our basin drain on the north east of our property because it comes too fast to get through that hump. Only when the ground is frozen do you see surface water running. I sampled it through a coffee filter, no silt to speak of. As soon as the ground thaws all the water actually comes in subsurface. Of course we do loose a good deal of the potential with that.

I had considered that if we open up that little cove area and deepen it to create a a bog then we could place a barrier and walkway along the edge of the pond. Let's say that is 6 feet wide of compacted soil. Then we could place a basin drain on the farmers side of that hump and run the pipe to the barrier. Then the pick ups on the pipes going through the barrier to the pond would be on the east side edge. That way the water coming in would have to back flow through the bog before coming into the pond. That would serve us, and also the farmer because we would be getting rid of that water.

Then I thought we could sink a crock with a feeder line next to the pond. That would be on the north west corner. The feeder for that crock could run to the bottom of the pond. Then we would run a 1/2 line across the bottom and through the barrier we built. Even in times of low water that would keep water circulating through the bog.

In researching nutrient sequestration I found that the plant that does it best is pickeralweed. That is what we would encourage in that bog. What is important though is to cut the plants down after they bloom and before they set seed. Then removing the cut plant material. That would, from what I understand, be three cuttings a year.

But get something like that through, pretty hard. Heck, it took 4 months for me to get aeration in the pond. A major renovation, not likely.

Last edited by garryc; 04/21/14 10:24 AM.
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Keep in mind, a lot of plants, especially cat tails, spread primarily by root.

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Originally Posted By: NWFL Jim
Keep in mind, a lot of plants, especially cat tails, spread primarily by root.


the sides in the main body are pretty steep in most locations. Time with a weed razor is not an issue for me, that's just work and that never scared me.

Besides, I get to add all that to my garden

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Heck,
It may be cheaper and easier to dig a new pond and fill the old. Swap the ranges and the pond location or something like that. With the old pond, you have a nice spot to put the diggings from the new pond. Then make sure the banks are set up for easier maintenance. Lead problem? Underground.

Some of us go around our ponds obsessively pulling baby willows and poplar seedlings to prevent this from happening. In my case I need the cattails on one side of the pond for multiple reasons, and the pond level drops too much for easier to control beneficial plants.

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Originally Posted By: liquidsquid
Heck,
It may be cheaper and easier to dig a new pond and fill the old. Swap the ranges and the pond location or something like that. With the old pond, you have a nice spot to put the diggings from the new pond. Then make sure the banks are set up for easier maintenance. Lead problem? Underground.

Some of us go around our ponds obsessively pulling baby willows and poplar seedlings to prevent this from happening. In my case I need the cattails on one side of the pond for multiple reasons, and the pond level drops too much for easier to control beneficial plants.


Soil and water will not permit it. Those blue tarps you see are covering dirt piles from our two year lead reclamation of the range, which did not work by the way. I thing we got 5 buckets of lead. The range itself is actually down on a creek bottom.

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Anyone tried putting cattails in pots, to help stop them from spreading?

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Originally Posted By: john kelsey
Anyone tried putting cattails in pots, to help stop them from spreading?

Yes, in a garden pond. No, they climb right out and spread unless you periodically chop off the escaping tubers.

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Here is something else to consider. Look up how much water these trees drink in a given week. You WILL be amazed at how much water they suck out of your pond a week. Times that by 10 or 15 trees and you have 100's if not 1000's of gallons of water coming out of your pond each week from the trees drinking the water. I have some 60 foot pines on the high side of my pond about 12 of them and I am getting rid of them this year and next. Between the acid needles and them sucking my pond dry they got to go!!!

An adult pine tree needs 30 to 50 gallons of water a day. Times that by 12 hmmmm lets see at 40 gallons a day that 480 gallons a day those pines are taking out of my pond!! Just something to think about!

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Last edited by garryc; 04/27/14 09:57 PM.
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Originally Posted By: liquidsquid
Originally Posted By: john kelsey
Anyone tried putting cattails in pots, to help stop them from spreading?

Yes, in a garden pond. No, they climb right out and spread unless you periodically chop off the escaping tubers.


And don't forget the gazillions of tiny cattail seeds in every single cattail head that dispursed by wind and water can quickly be spread to every bank of the pond.

They like shallow water. Deep water and steep banks keep them at bay. Any farm pond or road ditch I have seen them in has been in the shallows. The deep part stays open.

Last edited by snrub; 04/27/14 11:19 PM.

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I do wonder how far those roots can go into clay. Maybe its not so bad if they are tiny.


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