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#370325 - 03/27/14 02:23 PM Limestone Rock Around Pond
John Wann Offline
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Registered: 05/16/12
Posts: 1676
Loc: Phelps county, Missouri
Before I possibly make a bad decision I thought I would check in here first. Was thinking of putting 2 inch limestone gravel around shoreline of pond to keep clay mud off everybody's shoes. My pond water level fluctuates a lot so the grass thing doesn't work out to well. Would I be better off with river gravel? I can get that also around the same price. I like the look of the limestone better is the only reason I ask. This is the limestone rock I just dumped on my driveway a couple days ago. It's one inch. Thinking 2 or 3 inch would be better around opposite side of dam on pond. Thanks.
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#370326 - 03/27/14 02:56 PM Re: Limestone Rock Around Pond [Re: John Wann]
Bill Cody Offline
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Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12556
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
River rock or washed gravel is a lot harder to walk in compared to 2-4" limestone. The gravel wants to roll when you step on it especially on a slope. The limestone will also very slowly add some lime to the water; not a lot but measurable. The pros of gravel is it usually grows less algae on it compared to lime stone. Lime stone especially the lighter colored softer types, leaches calcium carbonate and some phosphoric acid, both used by algae for growth.
As usual there are pros and cons.


Edited by Bill Cody (03/27/14 03:01 PM)
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#370327 - 03/27/14 03:05 PM Re: Limestone Rock Around Pond [Re: John Wann]
John Wann Offline
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Registered: 05/16/12
Posts: 1676
Loc: Phelps county, Missouri
Dang. Not really a fan of algae. I have nightmares of it taking over my pond. Lol.
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If you ain't gonna fart, why eat the beans?
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RES,HBG,YP,HSB,SMB,CC,and FHM. .seasonal trout.

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#370328 - 03/27/14 03:08 PM Re: Limestone Rock Around Pond [Re: John Wann]
esshup Offline
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Registered: 01/26/09
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Even 3" limestone is sorta difficult to walk on. That's railroad ballast size (the size that is used round railroad tracks and ties). But it's still a LOT easier to walk on vs. washed river rock, which is round and rolls under your feet.
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#370329 - 03/27/14 03:33 PM Re: Limestone Rock Around Pond [Re: John Wann]
fish n chips Offline


Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 2315
Loc: Northeast Ohio
How would you keep it from sliding/rolling into pond. I assume you want it to the water's edge, maybe a bit further. At that point, it might be steep enough that it keeps going. Can be accomplished, but possibly more work than you might be planning for.

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#370330 - 03/27/14 03:48 PM Re: Limestone Rock Around Pond [Re: John Wann]
outdoorlivin247 Offline


Registered: 03/18/13
Posts: 725
Loc: IL
My riprap is probably 6 to 8 inch and a pain in the arse to walk on.. The local city ponds are 2 to 3 inch and are a lot easier to walk around..

My goal is to get some smaller and put mix in with the existing to try and level it better...

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#370335 - 03/27/14 05:08 PM Re: Limestone Rock Around Pond [Re: John Wann]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5286
Loc: SE Kansas
I like a layer of larger rock followed by smaller stuff. The larger (2-3") will tend to not work its way down into the soil like fine stuff will, but as pointed out it is terrible to walk on. Thus the smaller stuff on top. I have put some small 3/8" stuff with the fines taken out and also used some AB3 (fines all the way up to 1" mixed) and both work ok.

As far as running it down the bank a ways for shoreline erosion control, I like the 2-3" stuff. The best way I found to do this is with the pond level low during a drought or before the pond fills. What I did was use my small MFWD 2520 John Deere loader tractor (about 25 hp), ran the front wheels over the bank headed down the bank, put the bottom of the bucket at a 45 degree angle to the soil, and did a "cut" into the bank pushing soil forward 6" or so. This created a small "bench" about 2-3' below full pool water level line. This gives a ledge for the rock to sit on so when it is poured over the bank it does not roll down to the bottom of the pond. This method obviously will not work with the pond full. I did mine when the pond was about 2/3 full on its initial fill. Would have been better to have done it when the pond was initially built but I did not decide to do it till later.

If your pond needs lime anyway, you can then cover this bank protection rock with regular ag lime. This fine stuff will fill in between the coarse rock and help hold it in place. Much will "wash off" the bank with wave action and lime the pond. The coarser material in the lime will settle a foot or two below the surface from the wave action and make a sort of ledge. At least that is the way it worked for me. This is not necessary, but just another way to help stabilize the bank while giving the pond some lime. Maybe I just have too much time on my hands, but I like the way it worked out. Did the lime with a shovel out of the tractor loader bucket. Took a while, but not too bad.

I really like the rock we put around the pond to drive and walk on as well as down into the pond for bank erosion protection. We can go out anytime after or even during a rain and easily walk or ride the 4-wheeler around the pond. I think we get a lot more use out of the pond than what we would if we did not have it "rocked".


Attachments
Shallow area.JPG (678 downloads)
Description: coarse 2-3" rock covered with AB3 1" with all sizes below including fines




Edited by snrub (03/27/14 05:20 PM)
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#370336 - 03/27/14 05:15 PM Re: Limestone Rock Around Pond [Re: Bill Cody]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5286
Loc: SE Kansas
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
River rock or washed gravel is a lot harder to walk in compared to 2-4" limestone. The gravel wants to roll when you step on it especially on a slope. The limestone will also very slowly add some lime to the water; not a lot but measurable. The pros of gravel is it usually grows less algae on it compared to lime stone. Lime stone especially the lighter colored softer types, leaches calcium carbonate and some phosphoric acid, both used by algae for growth.
As usual there are pros and cons.


I can attest to the algae liking the crushed limestone. If the water level rises a few inches, within a couple days there is a bright green covering on the newly water covered area of the rocks and the snails are on this new band of algae like white on rice. Snails seem to love the new growth. The growth just below it will be of a darker color.

I ought to have well fed RES, because I have snails by the gazillions.


Edited by snrub (03/27/14 05:16 PM)
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#370369 - 03/27/14 11:03 PM Rock size [Re: snrub]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5286
Loc: SE Kansas
Pictures are better than words. Here are pics of the rock size I took today. The big rock is what is typically used around here for lateral lines in spetic tank sewage systems. The smaller rock with fines is what is known in Kansas as AB3 and is commonly used for driveways.

Large rock is along bank and under the road portion. Smaller rock with fines is on top of the larger rocks on the road portion. The very neatly defining line in the shoreline picture is not because I did such a neat job applying the rock. I did do some hand shoveling right along the water line, but the water at full pool did the final work by washing the fine lime down in the water.

Hand in pictures is to show relative rock size.

Full pool is where the larger rock meets the smaller rock. Water level is 12-14" low right now because we have not had any rains big enough for runoff nearly all fall and winter. Small adequate rains, but little runoff.

I REALLY like the rock around the pond.

Believe it or not, the large rock along the shore line was covered with about an inch thick layer of ag lime about a foot wide (water was about 6" down at the time). I went all around the pond (with help of oldest grandson) and over a period of a week or so hand shoveled this foot wide band of lime over the large rocks down to and a little into the water. The water came up to full pool and now there is no evidence the lime was ever there. Some washed down in between the big rocks and the rest dispersed into the water. We had limed the pond before filling, but this was just a little extra.


Attachments
012.JPG (917 downloads)
Description: big rock to protect bank from erosion

011.JPG (907 downloads)
Description: smaller rock with fines to overlay large rock for walking/riding

009.JPG (1091 downloads)
Description: rock showing side by side along bank




Edited by snrub (03/27/14 11:18 PM)
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#370370 - 03/27/14 11:17 PM Re: Limestone Rock Around Pond [Re: snrub]
teehjaeh57 Offline
Chairman, Pond Boss Legacy award; Moderator; field correspondent
Lunker

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: Lincoln, NE
Originally Posted By: snrub
I like a layer of larger rock followed by smaller stuff. The larger (2-3") will tend to not work its way down into the soil like fine stuff will, but as pointed out it is terrible to walk on. Thus the smaller stuff on top. I have put some small 3/8" stuff with the fines taken out and also used some AB3 (fines all the way up to 1" mixed) and both work ok.

As far as running it down the bank a ways for shoreline erosion control, I like the 2-3" stuff. The best way I found to do this is with the pond level low during a drought or before the pond fills. What I did was use my small MFWD 2520 John Deere loader tractor (about 25 hp), ran the front wheels over the bank headed down the bank, put the bottom of the bucket at a 45 degree angle to the soil, and did a "cut" into the bank pushing soil forward 6" or so. This created a small "bench" about 2-3' below full pool water level line. This gives a ledge for the rock to sit on so when it is poured over the bank it does not roll down to the bottom of the pond. This method obviously will not work with the pond full. I did mine when the pond was about 2/3 full on its initial fill. Would have been better to have done it when the pond was initially built but I did not decide to do it till later.

If your pond needs lime anyway, you can then cover this bank protection rock with regular ag lime. This fine stuff will fill in between the coarse rock and help hold it in place. Much will "wash off" the bank with wave action and lime the pond. The coarser material in the lime will settle a foot or two below the surface from the wave action and make a sort of ledge. At least that is the way it worked for me. This is not necessary, but just another way to help stabilize the bank while giving the pond some lime. Maybe I just have too much time on my hands, but I like the way it worked out. Did the lime with a shovel out of the tractor loader bucket. Took a while, but not too bad.

I really like the rock we put around the pond to drive and walk on as well as down into the pond for bank erosion protection. We can go out anytime after or even during a rain and easily walk or ride the 4-wheeler around the pond. I think we get a lot more use out of the pond than what we would if we did not have it "rocked".


Beautiful looking BOW right there.
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#370372 - 03/27/14 11:23 PM Re: Limestone Rock Around Pond [Re: teehjaeh57]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5286
Loc: SE Kansas
Thanks.

Except for the FA in the water shown on the left of the last picture.

Debating on trying to do something about it or just wait and see what develops. Although that bank does not look very steep, it goes 3 to 1 right below where the water line is now, so not a lot of shallow area except where I made a specific shallow area with some spawning beds. That area may be a problem area till other weeds take over.

I think Bill was right about algae liking limesone. Regular and FA both.



Edited by snrub (03/27/14 11:25 PM)
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#370373 - 03/27/14 11:44 PM Re: Limestone Rock Around Pond [Re: John Wann]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5286
Loc: SE Kansas
Originally Posted By: John Wann
Before I possibly make a bad decision I thought I would check in here first. Was thinking of putting 2 inch limestone gravel around shoreline of pond to keep clay mud off everybody's shoes. My pond water level fluctuates a lot so the grass thing doesn't work out to well. Would I be better off with river gravel? I can get that also around the same price. I like the look of the limestone better is the only reason I ask. This is the limestone rock I just dumped on my driveway a couple days ago. It's one inch. Thinking 2 or 3 inch would be better around opposite side of dam on pond. Thanks.


One other comment John. The guy that sold and delivered my fish (Charles Wallace) has been on my farm three times to deliver fish. All three times he had made some comment about lime or limestone and its benefits to have it in and around the water. He mentioned it even before I decided to put rock around the pond (but had put some "beds" of gravel on the bottom - be brought BG and FHM when pond was half full and saw the limestone rock beds). He mentioned it when he returned with the predator fish and was pleased to see I had put some in and around the pond banks, and made the comment, the finer the better. Then when he brought my additional RES this fall he seen where I had put lime around the perimeter where the waves lap and was very pleased to see it. His comments on his first two visits probably was what gave me the enthusiasm to do the shovel work to put the final lime on by hand around the edge.

So I guess his comments led me to believe that limestone is a good thing for the BOW. Now keep in mind he and I are both in an area that is typical to have naturally acid soils and BOW's. So his comments might not be appropriate for all areas. But I have been very pleased with the water clarity and how my water looks compared to the average farm pond in this area (usually dirty brown muddy for newer ponds). So from my perspective and my conditions, it would sure lead me towards the limestone over the river gravel for shore line use at least.


Edited by snrub (03/27/14 11:50 PM)
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#370377 - 03/28/14 03:23 AM Re: Limestone Rock Around Pond [Re: John Wann]
gallop Offline
Lunker

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 396
Loc: Gainesville, Fl
Rock looks good, and it obviously is easier to put in when the pond is being built, but if you need to have repairs etc... Or god forbid your pond leaks and needs work done, now you have tons of rock to possibly "move". Or get mixed in with clay, which wouldn't be great for compaction/ sealing, etc

What I'm saying is make sure it holds water first

(Voice of bad experience)

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#370378 - 03/28/14 04:50 AM Re: Limestone Rock Around Pond [Re: John Wann]
John Wann Offline
Hall of Fame


Registered: 05/16/12
Posts: 1676
Loc: Phelps county, Missouri
Thanks guys. My water is very acidic so I think it might help. I'm going to think it over for a while.
_________________________
If you ain't gonna fart, why eat the beans?
.
RES,HBG,YP,HSB,SMB,CC,and FHM. .seasonal trout.

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#370399 - 03/28/14 09:37 AM Re: Limestone Rock Around Pond [Re: John Wann]
dlowrance Offline


Registered: 01/09/12
Posts: 857
Loc: Central IL
snrub that looks really nice...I've got the levee of my big pond and most of the banks of the small one lined with riprap - 4-10 inch rock - but would sure like to add smaller stuff to fill in the gaps. Unfortunately the price of rock is a bit prohibitive for that, at least right now.
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#370489 - 03/29/14 03:09 AM Re: Limestone Rock Around Pond [Re: dlowrance]
snrub Offline


Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 5286
Loc: SE Kansas
You can get a lot of money tied up in rock, that is for sure. Fortunately we are only about 15 miles from a quarry and own a 12 wheeler dump truck so the price we pay is more reasonable than someone who has to hire it trucked many miles.
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#370491 - 03/29/14 04:51 AM Re: Limestone Rock Around Pond [Re: John Wann]
John Wann Offline
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Registered: 05/16/12
Posts: 1676
Loc: Phelps county, Missouri
I'm pretty lucky too. Quarry only about 5 miles away. Benefit of living within a couple mile of interstate.
_________________________
If you ain't gonna fart, why eat the beans?
.
RES,HBG,YP,HSB,SMB,CC,and FHM. .seasonal trout.

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