Pond Boss Forums AERATION Systems questions I there any good non elec. aeration systems?

I would like to put an aeration system in my pond, but it would cost to much to run elec. that far. I have done some reading and looks like wind mill is not the way to go.
Is there some other system?
The pond is 1 1/2 acre.
Thanks Dale

Highflyer is working on a solar one. How far would you have to run the electric?

There are some solar ones out there that are available but not cheap.

Can you run the air, instead of electricity?

Yeah an airline wouldn't be that expensive, and all you would need to do is trench it and not that deep. I have airlines to my back two hatchery ponds that are just below the surface so the mower won't catch them. One turn with a spade is all that is needed.

What is it you can run them... up to 5000 feet?

Most things that run in hoses, the longer the run a bigger size tube presents less friction losses so is better.

I.E. a 3/8 hose might be fine for a 100 foot run but a 3/4" would be better for a half mile (just an example, I really don't know the appropriate sizes for length of run. Just that bigger is better for long runs. This applies to fluids such as hydraulic lines, water lines, etc and air would be the same only to a significantly lesser degree).

A good mental exercise to relate this is breathing through a straw. Blowing air through a 6" long straw is fairly easy. But doing it through a 30' long hose of the same diameter would present more back pressure and would be harder. Thus on long runs larger diameter hose would present less back pressure to the pump. The higher the flow rate in cfm, the more benefit the larger hose would present.

This is not directed at you Cecil as you probably already know this. Just putting this out as general information for people that may not have had the experience of working with fluids or air in industrial applications. Just like longer runs for a given electrical load takes larger wire, longer runs of moving physical air or fluid at a given cfm requires larger pipes. Longer runs equals more resistance in the line and energy loss do to friction.

The cheap black plastic low pressure water line used for home well water systems is relatively inexpensive and available in different sizes from big box stores like Lowes/Home Depot or commercial plumbing stores in 100 and 500' rolls. That is what I am going to use this spring when I put in aeration to get to the waters edge. Probably other stuff made specifically for the aeration systems, but this stuff is available locally quickly without ordering form mail order for me.

One other question I have had. It is recommended that the hose run down hill so condensation will flow down and be expelled from the diffuser. This is going to be near impossible on a very long run to keep from getting dips and low spots, or maybe even needing to run directly up hill in places. Is this going to be a problem somewhere down the road if condensation or back siphon causes water to collect in low places? A question I have thought about for long runs of air pipe, but do not have practical experience to know if it will become a problem.

snrub, how long of a run, and what size hose/pipe were you planning on using?

Most important thing for long airline runs is to keep the pump well above the airline so water does not drain back into the pump. Some use a check valve at the pump as insurance. Water that lies in the dips of the airline will freeze when the ground is froze thus causing an air blockage if the water completely fills the diameter of the pipe. Make sure the pump has a pressure relief valve if this happens.

Hey thanks for the replys. I would say my pond is 250-300 yards away from my house. I wondered if I could trench in an air line but I thought it would be too far.
I have a 1/3 HP blower I have left over from the late 90s when I owned a bait shop and I remember it came with calculations on what size pipe and how deep you could run your air stones. I remember it restricted the CFM quite a lot running smaller pipe. I had it rigged up with 2" Pvc then of to 3/8" hose. I know this is a whole different pump and i cant find the instructions.
I will do some checking but from what you guys say looks like trenching an airline would be the way to go.

I had talked to the Elec. company about running electric on the other side of the pond about 3/8 mile from the road when I was planning on building a house back there and there estimate was like $3000.

My runs are not all that long. Maybe 300 feet for the longest run. I have 3/4" black water pipe bought for the ground portion (but probably not enough yet) and 5/8 sinking for most of the in water portion.

I figure it is better to err on the larger side than the smaller. In my application it will be pretty easy to keep the hose running down hill from the pumps.

Where I was thinking of a long run is if I ever decided to aerate the old pond. It is maybe a quarter mile and would involve trenching under a small creek then up a hill. Not sure if I will ever do it or not. Not this year for sure. Already enough projects to keep me busy this spring and summer.

As far as freezing airlines.....why not dump a couple three ounces of RV antifreeze into the line every fall? Let the compressor push it through the line and problem solved?

What is the percentage of alcohol in antifreeze?. What else is in antifreeze besides alcohol?. To be on the safe side I prefer to use and recommend just pure alcohol (70%-100%) such a isopropyl, methanol, or ethanol. Some of it is likely to get pumped into the pond over the long term.

Bill I don't know....I do know that RV antifreeze is made with propylene glycol, which is touted as bio-friendly and non toxic. That's why it is used in RV's and campers, as it will not poison the potable water supply.

I used RV antifreeze in my water lines that I had set up around here for sprinkling. When I blew out the lines in the spring, it killed the grass.

Bill, I'm having a heck of a time finding 91% or higher Isopropyl Alcohol in bulk. I need 9 gallons to fill all the Koenders anti-freeze tanks. Can I use Denatured?

Dale, for that length run, I'd go with a minimum of 1" for that length run, depending on CFM. One client is pushing air over 900' with trenched airline.

Remember, alcohol is alcohol.....whether it's in antifreeze, or gasoline, it can attack rubber and plastic components unless said pieces are made from a resistant material.

I'm not saying it would, when used in an aeration system, only that the science says it could.

Scott....you mean a propylene based antifreeze can be non-toxic AND there's a chance it might kill aquatic vegetation?? Now I'm twice as sold on using it!!

No testing has been done on aquatic vegetation, just on terrestrial.

Denatured is okay for airline and pond use. Denaturing is just so humans cannot drink it. It makes then sick. I'm not sure where to buy 90%-99% isopropyl in bulk. It should be available in 5 gal containers, but I don't know what specific businesses use it. Maybe try an auto body shop and they might be able to look it up in their supply catalog?
I did some looking around for alcohol. Here are some places to try. Bulk fuels dealer - farm, agriculture, gas station supply places. They might be able to order it. If you have an ethanol plant near you contact them. The company that I used to work for bought ethanol and isopropyl in 5 gal from lab supply companies but that was a little pricey. I would check to make sure that NAPA Car Parts doesn't have assess to it.

Bill, good suggestion on NAPA. There's one close. I can get Denatured at any big box store, or a paint supplier.

There's an ethanol plant 30 miles away, but I have no idea how to get some from there. I can get it in it's raw state, but I don't think shoving kernels of corn down the airline will do much good.

I realize that this is PondBoss, and we strive for accuracy and live and die by what the manual says, but is it possible that we're overcomplicating and overthinking this situation?

Alcohol is flammable, can attack rubber and plastic components, provides no lubricating qualities, and in some formulations can be toxic.

Propylene Glycol based RV antifreeze contains no alcohol, is not harmful to rubber or plastic lines or seals, has lubrication qualities, and is non-toxic. it's used in the rv and MARINE industry to treat potable water systems, as well as engine cooling systems in order to provide freeze protection.

My experience with it in a campground situation has seen literally gallons of it flushed from the water systems of RV's and campers over the years, a great deal of which went right into these ponds I now own. We never saw that first problem. And while Nate and Justin are new campground owners, after touring their operation this past winter I am pretty confident that the same procedure has taken place there over the years, albeit on a much larger scale.

And, propylene glycol based RV antifreeze is inexpensive and readily available. It is recommended that you purchase virgin propylene glycol however, as some is reclaimed from the airline industry where it is commonly used as deicing fluid.

esshup - Just for general information I would call the ethanol plant and see if you can buy 5 gallons. Tell they what it is for. They might even give you the name of a local supplier. They are in the alcohol business and should know.

sprkplug- you may be right. Just because something is frequently put down a drain and nothing appears to be harmed does not necessarily mean it is harmless. I will check on the MSDS for propylene glycol. They almost always have to list the toxicity for EPA approval. We should list for members the rubber and plastic parts that will be damaged in an aeration system is alcohol when put in the airline? I can't think of very many aeration parts that will be significantly damaged with a dose of alcohol.

Bill, I am not familiar with the chemical properties of the rubber and/or plastic components used in aeration systems, so I am forced to make generalizations.....a sticky undertaking most times.

And just to be clear, I'm not saying that alcohol WILL damage the system, only that I believe the possibility exists, based solely on my experiences with alcohol in other mechanical applications. I do think the amount of alcohol added may affect the chances of damage.

So with that in mind, here's what I'm thinking. The hoses themselves...are they rubber? Alcohol can cause rubber to swell, soften, and eventually deteriorate to the point of flaking off or smearing. It turns rubber "gooey". the same goes for the diaphragm if using a diffuser...again, I don't know if the membrane is made of a material that is susceptible to alcohol...lots of unknowns for me.

My biggest concern however, is the chance of alcohol getting back into the compressor itself. Alcohol is a solvent, and will scrub lubricating oils from metal surfaces. Also, if the compressor is a diaphragm type, we're back to the rubber issue, and possible distortion or failure of the diaphragms themselves....just a theory on my part, as once again I do not know the material used by the various manufacturers. And, the check valves you mentioned would greatly help prevent the introduction of alcohol back into the compressor itself....provided they didn't contain rubber components themselves.

I'm not trying to suggest that there's a definite problem with using alcohol in aeration systems, only that it might benefit from closer scrutiny.

Tony:

Koenders has an airline freeze control unit that meters a bit of alcohol into the line when pressure builds. Their instructions specifically say to use 97% isopropyl, their compressors are the diaphram type.

http://www.koenderswatersolutions.com/store/freezecontrolsystem.html

To fill the tank to the recommended "2/3 full" level, it takes 2 1/4 gallons.

Thanks Scott, I sent them an email with some inquiries. I will post their response.

I did locate the msds for isopropyl alcohol here:
http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.topic1045698.files/isopropanol.htm

Specific info copied from msds:

SECTION 12 ECOLOGICAL INFORMATION



ECOTOXICITY DATA:

FISH TOXICITY: 730 ug/L 96 hour(s) LC50 (Mortality) Brook trout (Salvelinus

fontinalis)



INVERTEBRATE TOXICITY: 3142000 ug/L 48 hour(s) EC20 (Biomass) Ciliate

Protozoa (Tetrahymena thermophila)



ALGAL TOXICITY: 2200 ug/L 96 hour(s) EC50 (Growth) Green algae (Chlorella

pyrenoidosa)



FATE AND TRANSPORT:

BIOCONCENTRATION: 0.38 ug/L 15 hour(s) BCF (Residue) Red swamp crayfish

(Procambarus clarki) 10 ug/L



ENVIRONMENTAL SUMMARY: Highly toxic to aquatic life.

Esshup, years ago we had a commercial turkey growing operation. The poultry supply houses had things such as concentrated iodine and other stuff available in gallon bottles (that iodine was some stout stuff, not tincture). I do not specifically remember ever getting alcohol from them, but they may very well have had it available.

So one other potential source is a poultry supply company or even a livestock supply company as bulk alcohol may be available to disinfect an area prior to giving them injections, etc.

Depends on the rubber compound.

For the two alcohols listed above:

SBR is the most common synthetic rubber made, it is compatible.

Nitrile is the most common rubber used in air hoses. It is not compatible with EA, and cautionary with IA.

EPDM is compatible with both.

PVC, use caution. It can swell then crack.

Buna-N, the most common O-Ring material, no problem. Viton and Urethane O-Rings are unacceptable.

Neoprene is good to fair.

PP (polypropylene) Is the best choice for air lines. HDPE and LDPE (high and low density polyethylene) are also good choices. Either one of these 3 would be a good choice for air lines and fittings.

Nylon for air lines is also a good choice, but may be more expensive. Very strong, but need to keep it out of the sun.

I can't see any material markings on the Vertex diffuser I have in my hand. I am not sure, but I thought the membrane was EPDM??? Not sure as to what the housing is made of. No markings!!!

If you see this symbol with anything dealing with your fish or chemical compatibility with things that won't kill your fish, you're good to go.



Scott, take some of that Everclear you PM'd the apple pie recipe for and dump it on the back side of a diffuser. We can't get the good stuff in MI

Divide ug/l by 1000 to get ppm or mg/l.

Looks like a little dab will do ya if you're a crayfish!

All the everclear is used. I do have a diffuser here, and some 91% iso. Some bottom line tubing too.

We looking for brittleness, or other signs of degredation?

Look for it to soften up first.

I'm only guessing at this moment, but think the diffuser housings may be an acetate resin due to the mechanical integrity of the diffuser. Don't know for sure tho. Ted??? Sue???

Polyvinyl acetate is fish friendly! It's also really cheap to produce!!!

Okay, I received a reply from Koender to my query regarding an acceptable air line antifreeze.

My question, as put to Koender:

to sales


Good morning..

I'm writing in regards to your freeze control unit, specifically the recommendation for isopropyl alcohol as the anti-freeze agent. My question involves the possible side effects of using alcohol in an environment containing plastic and rubber components. I've seen too many instances in other applications where alcohol caused deterioration of both rubber and plastic....I realize that isopropyl alcohol is a wonderful antifreeze, but have the long range effects of adding it tinto the system been evaluated? I would feel safer using RV antifreeze in this application, and would greatly appreciate hearing your thoughts on this.

Koender's response:(and I really appreciate them taking the time to respond...that means something to me in this day and age.)

Doug Hicks doug@mail.koenderswindmills.com
Mar 30 (1 day ago)

to me, sales


Tony,
Many customers do use RV Anti-Freeze - others use methol hydrate. As manufacturers of the systems we recommend using any non-toxic alcohol based solutions. Isopropynol being one of them.
Regards
Doug

So it appears that either is acceptable. I am confused as to the referencing of isopropyl being non-toxic. According to the msds I saw, it's listed as being highly toxic to aquatic life?

Tony,

Maybe it depends on the concentration/ dilution rate?

That surely must be it Cecil.



ECOTOXICITY DATA:

FISH TOXICITY: 730 ug/L 96 hour(s) LC50 (Mortality) Brook trout (Salvelinus

fontinalis)



INVERTEBRATE TOXICITY: 3142000 ug/L 48 hour(s) EC20 (Biomass) Ciliate

Protozoa (Tetrahymena thermophila)



ALGAL TOXICITY: 2200 ug/L 96 hour(s) EC50 (Growth) Green algae (Chlorella

pyrenoidosa)



FATE AND TRANSPORT:

BIOCONCENTRATION: 0.38 ug/L 15 hour(s) BCF (Residue) Red swamp crayfish

(Procambarus clarki) 10 ug/L



ENVIRONMENTAL SUMMARY: Highly toxic to aquatic life.

Wow those are some low concentrations! A lot lower than I thought!

Btw does isopropyl alcohol mix well with water?

I believe so. Many alcohols are extremely hygroscopic.

Yanked from a bicycle forum. I knew that Methanol, Ethanol and Isopropyl were different but not sure how different they were.

Methyl hydrate is also known as methanol, methyl alcohol or wood alcohol. Denatured alcohol is almost pure ethanol, also known as ethyl alcohol, plain alcohol, grain alcohol, moonshine or sippin' whiskey. Stuff is added to ethanol to make it either distasteful or poisonous to make it denatured. Sometimes, and there are dozens of ways to denature ethanol, methanol is added to ethanol. This makes it poisonous. Methanol is highly poisonous and is rather readily absorbed through the skin while ethanol is only moderately poisonous and not as easily absorbed. Consuming methanol will lead to blindness, convulsions and death at a fairly low level of consumption. Methanol is also more flammable than ethanol. It is therefore not a good substitute for denatured alcohol.

Chemically methanol has 1 carbon, ethanol has 2 carbons and isopopyl alcohol has 3 carbons. Flammability goes down with increasing carbon content because volatility also goes down with increasing carbon content.

I know that methanol is very corrosive in regards to some rubber and to aluminum. We'd have to coat the injection system and the intake manifold of the dragster at the end of the day to prevent it from corroding with WD-40. The fuel tank was aluminum, but hard anodized inside and out, so there was no corrosion. IIRC we used Stainless for the fuel line and the fuel pump was rated for use with methanol. We didn't have to worry about a rubber fuel line because the motor was solidly mounted to the chassis - no rubber mounts.

I just finished burying 1" poly 100psi pipe to run air from my Gast 0523 in my workshop 500 ft downhill to my 1 acre pond. At the pond, in an irrigation box above flood level, I have a manifold with two ball valves splitting the air for two 5/8" 100 ft weighted airlines to two Vertex XL2 diffusers.
I bought the poly pipe at Lowes @ $28 per 100 ft roll. Ditch Witch rental was $150/day and it took less than a day to trench 12"-18" deep by 500 ft. My wife helped with the uncoiling, connecting, and clamping. My tractor with box blade was very helpful during the recovering. My pond is about 80 miles west of Fort Worth so I am not worried about freezing condensation in pipe buried 12" deep. If I was, I would have found the low spot, dug a dry well and put in a tee and valve for draining.
You don't say where in Oklahoma you are, but you're welcome to come see my installation.
Now if it would just rain! My poor diffusers are sitting in less than 3 ft of water.

Isopropanol and ethanol are both infinitely miscible in water in all proportions.

Guys thanks for all the replies. I am north of Durant Oklahoma about 35 miles , 7 miles north of a little town called Milburn.

dg84s you are a ways off. but I may come over and look at your set up one of these days.
The wife and I love a road trip and everything is a ways off for us. It sure might save me some pain and money.
Dale

Where ever you looked up that data, would it be useful to look up the data for RV anti-freeze for a side by side comparison? In other words, is RV anti-freeze better, worse or the same level of toxicity?

I found this on propylene glycol, NOT RV antifreeze itself:

12 ECOLOGICAL INFORMATION
Acute Toxicity:
Fish: Low toxicity: LC/EC/IC50 > 40,000 mg/l
Aquatic Invertebrates: Low toxicity: LC/EC/IC >4,000 mg/l
Algae: Low Toxicity: LC/EC/IC >15,000 mg/l
Microorganisms: Low Toxicity: LC/EC/IC >20,000 mg/l
Mobility: Dissolves in water. If product enters soil, it will be highly mobile and may contaminate ground water.
Persistence/degradability: Readily biodegradable.
Bioaccumulation: Does not bioaccumulate significantly.

The complete msds for propylene glycol based RV antifreeze can be found here:
http://www.bosslubricants.com/pdfs/msds/Anti%20Freezes/BOSS%20RV%20ANTIFREEZE.pdf

A section of the msds, relevant to the discussion:



ECOTOXICOLOGY: based largely or completely in information for similar material, i.e. propylene
glycol. Material is practically non-toxic to aquatic organisms on an acute basis (LC50 greater than
100mg/L in most sensitive species.
Acute LC50 for fathead minnow (Pimephales promelas) is 4600-54900 mg/L.
Acute LC50 for guppy (Poecilla reticulata) is greater than 10000mg/L.
Acute LC50 for water flea Daphine magna is 4850-34400 mg/L.
Acute LC50 for rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss) is 44mL/L (about 44000 mg/L).