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#369861 03/23/14 07:26 PM
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Hi all,

I have owned this property for almost a year now. There is a damed pond, almost 2 acres in size. It was built in 1966. Here is an aerial that I had taken this past fall


There is an iron overflow pipe built into the dam which spills into a small crick. The as-built drawings from 1966 (very faded)show a vertical section of ~15 feet with a horizontal section angled at ~27* and 110 feet long. I believe the pipe is old gas line pipe, as at the outlet, it appears to have a wrapping on it. This is/was very thick pipe. It is hard to imagine that it is leaking but the previous owners had a sink hole filled a few years back. Now in the same location, I noticed a small sink hole forming last fall. Pretty small, could maybe fit a basketball into the size of it. Now that the snow is melting, I've noticed that it has gotten bigger.

Maybe it's just the dirt settling after a few years, but I'm worried that the pipe is leaking and washing out below. Unfortunately the previous owners are no longer alive and I can't get much history.

I'd like to address the problem with a solution that will work. But as you all know, as a new home owner, funds are a major issue. I'm an engineer, I'm handy and I know a lot of people with a lot of skills. I really feel this is something that I can fix, I am just not sure what the best route is.

The previous owners did get a quote to have the existing pipe replaced, like for like, at over $20,000!! No thanks, I'll drain the pond for that money.

Here are some pictures
A view at the typical fishing location. This is also where the emergency spillway starts


This shows how steep the banks are, all around the pond.

A view of the dam. It's very big and VERY steep. I need to find a way to safely mow this...


A view from the outlet, looking up


Inlet and trash rack


Outlet


You can see the outlet has some sort of wrap on it. You can see the corrosion on the outlet, but this is exposed to air and water, so I'm not overly concerned about this part


Another view of the dam


So how can I fix or replace the spillway? Replacing it with another deeply buried pipe seems pointless to me. At some point, steel will rust or the plastic will crack or a weld/joint will crack and I'll have the same issue again...many years down the road.

My thought is, why not put a vertical outlet near the top of the dam, and run it angled down, laying on the dam hillside. NOT buried, and exit at the existing spillway/outlet? This would require minimal excavator work and would allow the pipe to be above ground, for easy inspection and cheaper installation. Will the pipe look ugly sitting in the open? Sure, but will it be 10x cheaper to install and should be just as effective, I think so...but that's why I am here, and that's why I'm asking.

Here is a terrible sketch, but hopefully it gets the idea across....

So, what about my idea? What about my other options that I might not be aware of? I did get a quote to have the existing pipe relined and it was close to $20,000 as well. This has to be a low budget build for me. I'd like to do it myself.

Oh, I believe the outlet is ~12" and the inlet is a little larger, I can't remember off the top of my head.

The previous owner had a company run a camera a few years back, they said it looked fine. He said it was low quality and they probably missed whatever the issue is. But, he has since passed away so I'm out of history.

What are my options and THANK YOU for the help!!

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That looks like asphalt/tar coated pipe.

The sinkhole could be a tree stump that is decomposing.

First thing I'd do is call around to different plumbers or sewer guys and see about running a camera thru the pipe again, this time better resolution. No need to do anything until you know it's bad. Why spend the money to fix something if it ain't broke?

If it is bad, look at getting the pipe filled on the pond side with hydraulic grout and installing a siphon system.

Next get to work on the cattails and lilies. wink


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Without cathodic protection that pipe should be expected to be at the end of its expected life. I would guess that pipe has leaded joints which have very little resistance to settling and all earth dams settle to some extent. However, I agree that confirming you have a problem may be in order before spending money on repair.
If you want to do it yourself, as you stated, you can buy an underwater camera with LED lights and 100' cord for less than a plumber will charge to come out and do it. Flush the pipe as best you can then temporarily block inlet. Attach camera to long pipe and go exploring. Best of all, when you are done you can spy on your fish.


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Thank you all for the reply.

Esshup - I agree that it could be a stump, however I have a State of Ohio inspection report from ~1999 which makes no mention of a tree on the dam or any pictures of one. Unfortunately, I did do some calling around in the fall to see who could run a camera (a good camera) and I was stuck with the same company that did it a few years back. Not a lot of need for it around here I guess?

I agree, don't fix it if it aint broke. Can you provide more information on a siphon system? I keep seeing them mentioned but my thought was that those are only used to lower pond levels when needed? Would they be easier to install? Or a DIY project?

Any advice on the cattails? Stupid things are bothering me too!

Bearbait1 - I believe the pipe has welded joints. At least that's what the original drawing called out for. Can you suggest a camera? I wouldn't know where to start? I think the plumber with the low quality camera wanted to charge $250 for the visit and $100/hr afterwards.

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Well, if you are worried about holes in your dam then maybe ground penetrating radar could be the solution. It could show where the hole is and then you would be sure which way you should go.
Probably it can be used only if a friend owns one otherwise it might cost much more than a plumbers visit. Yeah, an experienced operator is needed as well.

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I have a 15 year old aquaview and it works great. I've watched professional snake cameras at work and my aquaview is almost as good you just have to jury rig a way to attach it to a pipe. You want to attach it so it is a few inches above the bottom as you slide it along. I think you can buy an attachment accessory for some of the cameras. I know there are a couple of underwater camera makers, Cabelas carries some.

Last edited by Bearbait1; 03/24/14 09:53 AM.

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That's one toy I wont have access to (Ground Penetrating Radar)

I'll do some looking tonight and look at an Aquaview and whatever Cabelas offers.

Might be a good excuse for another toy!


Lets assume that my pipe has a leak, is a siphon style the way to go? Is there a sticky for FAQ that would explain this system? I always thought a siphon style was to drain a pond only, not to maintain a level

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A siphon will maintain water level, but have no personal experience with them, only what I have read. Google "pond dam siphon" and you will find some simple drawings. The search feature on this site sucks so to search this site for info use google and search "pond boss siphon" or something similar.


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www.hoosierpondpros.com


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Well I emailed the State of Ohio Department of Natural Resources, who has to approve all modifications to my dam, and they said a siphon system is not appropriate. I asked for a reason why.

They wont let me perform any modifications without their approval and the sign off from a Professional Engineer.

I'm about ready to just drain the pond and say the hell with them.

They told me to slip line or replace the pipe with the same style (which I had quoted at $20-30,000)

I'd be a shame to have to drain a pond that is almost 50 years old because of something like this.

Last edited by cold1313; 03/25/14 09:34 AM.
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Wow, I thought most states were just worried about ponds over 50 acre ft. Are all ponds in Ohio regulated like this?


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Apparently? I'm not sure. I have a yearly fee to pay, which is based on the class of pond (I-IV) and the size of the dam.

This is ridiculous. Quite agitated...

Mine is listed as 27.8 acre ft by the way...

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Well, since they have their finger in the pie so to speak, ask them what programs are available to help fund the replacement.

I'm really interested to hear what they have to say about the siphon system - why it's not allowed. If they don't reply, keep pressing. It might be that they just don't know how they work, and once they find out they'll say yes.

If there isn't a lot of water in the pipe, I wonder if a mini GoPro camera on a small RC car would work?


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I am curious as to how you found out that the ODNR has to approve all modifications to the pond? What makes this pond different, etc? I would contact Bill Cody and see if he knows anyone out your way that deals with pond repairs. If there is, they may know how to work with these entities to get your work done. Bill's in Ohio, west of you.

Hard to believe that a siphon system wouldn't be allowed, if installed properly. I would think that it could handle more water than a same size regular pipe.

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Originally Posted By: fish n chips
I am curious as to how you found out that the ODNR has to approve all modifications to the pond? What makes this pond different, etc? I would contact Bill Cody and see if he knows anyone out your way that deals with pond repairs. If there is, they may know how to work with these entities to get your work done. Bill's in Ohio, west of you.

Hard to believe that a siphon system wouldn't be allowed, if installed properly. I would think that it could handle more water than a same size regular pipe.


It can!


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Esshup - I agree. ODNR's website states funding (loans) are available, on a first come, first serve basis. Still, I can't float a $30k repair bill. I fished for a whole 60 minutes last year.

I'm curious about their view on the siphon system as well, which is why I asked "why is it not appropriate?". Waiting on a response. I sent them the link above, that shows a system. Hopefully that will clear the air. I have a "backup" siphon system to lower the pond if needed. I'm hoping that is what they are picturing. But the system shown in the link, is automatic for level control.

The pipe in question is 12" ID, so a GoPro and an RC car would work. I just need to get enough light in there.

fish n chips -
I found out from the previous owners that ODNR has to approve everything. The ODNR website also states that they must approval all changes first, and you must have a Professional Engineer (of your own) sign and approve everything before submitting. They also remind you with just about every correspondence as well.

Could you message me the contact information for Mr Cody? Or is that his name on this board? I haven't had any luck finding people in this area who can work with this size of pond. It's either small Koi ponds, or huge state funded projects.

I think we all agree a siphon is just fine. I'll even put a larger pipe in, if it'll make them happy.

Last edited by cold1313; 03/25/14 12:07 PM.
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Info on Bill:

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showprofile&User=24

He's one of the moderators here too.


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Thank you!

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I received a response from the ODNR:
"That type of siphon system is known as a bottom withdrawal siphon system, It could be used in this case but needs to be properly designed by an engineer in regards to hydraulics and pipe forces. Also if you choose to go with abandoning the current spillway pipe system it will need to be completely filled with concrete grout to be considered safe and abandoned.

In regards to the open channel system I have attached 2 fact sheets about open channels. Your dam currently has a small open channel emergency spillway which could possibly be modified to act as the only spillway. The most important issue with open channels is erosion control, especially when they would have constant flow.

Again, any modifications of this nature would need to have plans submitted to us by a professional engineer."


I know a PE or two...however I don't know anyone who designs these types of systems. Seems like another major expense?

Last edited by cold1313; 03/25/14 12:36 PM.
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Such things happen. Maybe you'll get a project with simple ideas that every student can tell but anyway it will be additional expense.

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I'd think that the company that I linked to might have an engineer on staff. If not, I'm sure they'd know of one. It'd be worth a call.

I'd be leery of using an open channel for a primiary spillway. Like they said, too great of a chance for a dam blow out without extensive erosion control methods. I think siphon system would be less expensive.

12" dia pipe, 100' long needs aroughly 3 cubic yards of grout to fill.

Last edited by esshup; 03/25/14 01:10 PM.

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I just gave them a quick call. Unfortunately, no engineers on site. He recommended calling the NRCS for recommendations. I'll see if Bill Cody has any recommendations for me.

They were more than willing to talk and work with whoever I have look at the project.

I'm leery of open channel as well....that's sort of off the table in my mind

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Good thinking! I agree.


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How deep is the pond? My neighbor has a pond, and he said that if it gets "x" number of feet deep, then the pond goes under certain regulations. He took two feet off the top of his dam and readjusted his outflow level, just so he wouldn't be hassled. I just am at a loss of why the ODNR is involved in your pond. frown

Last edited by fish n chips; 03/25/14 02:52 PM.
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Not exactly sure on the depth. As built drawings suggest only 15 feet or so.

Is your neighbor's pond dam'ed? That's why the state is involved with mine.
http://ohiodnr.com/water/dsafety/whatdam/tabid/3342/Default.aspx

Mine is a Class III, according to ODNR:
Class III:

Dams having a total storage volume greater than fifty acre-feet or a height of greater than twenty-five feet shall be placed in class III. A dam shall be placed in class III when sudden failure of the dam would result in at least one of the following conditions, but loss of human life is not probable.

(a) Property losses including but not limited to rural buildings not otherwise described in paragraph (A) of this rule, and class IV dams and levees not otherwise listed as high-value property in paragraph (A) of this rule. At the request of the dam owner, the chief may exempt dams from the criterion of this paragraph if the dam owner owns the potentially affected property.

(b) Damage or disruption to local roads including but not limited to roads not otherwise listed as major roads in paragraph (A) of this rule.


The ONLY item I can see that I meet, is that they classify the height at 26.7 feet or something around there. I believe that is the height of the dam, not the depth of the pond.

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