Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Fertilization New to all this...Tell me what I am missing

I am managing a 2 acre pond that my in laws purchased around November of last year. The pond was rebuilt/drained around 2008 and restocked. Confirmed fish (personally caught) are bluegill(in abundance), bass, and crappie. I know from others that there are catfish but I have not caught or attempted to catch.

I believe the prior owner used dye as weed control, but I want to take a fertilization approach. I sent a water sample to A&M. Everything looked good. pH was 7.5. I spoke to the fisheries contact at A&M - really nice guy. His recommendations were as follows:

1) Chloride is a little low (40 ppm with the ideal being 100). He said down to 20 would be OK. He said if we wanted to add 100-200 lbs of "stock salt" per acre it is about $5 per 50 lb bag at a feed supply. Would need to be repeated every couple of years depending on the water flush from rain. Ultimately concluded it wouldn't be absolutely necessary, but given the very low cost I'm planning to pursue.

2) Treat algae with Cutrine Plus; simultaneously:

3) Spot treat American Pond Weed with Diquat. Treat no more that 1/3 of the pond at a time. Wait 10-14 days between treatments and fertilizer following the last treatment. I am not opposed to pond weed; the pond is deep so the weedline is fairly limited (water was also dyed). The biologist at A&M thought it would be good to thin the pond weed before fertilizing.

4) Fertilize 8 lbs per acre when water reaches 70 degrees. Add 4 lbs per acre 2-3 times during summer depending on visibility. Stop fertilization at 70 degrees in the fall. Plan to use Trophy Maker. I have not purchased it yet but I believe it advises 65 degrees as the magic mark.


In addition to understanding if I am on track with the above, I have a few questions:

The pond is part of a chain of ponds along a creek. there is some sharing of water with an adjacent property via 2 culvert pipes (see map). I would estimate that less than 5% of the pond's surface area is on the other side of the fence/road. (It may look like more on a surface area basis - probably is - but most of what you see in the photo is 1 foot deep on the adjacent property; it dries out quickly.) Thus far all crappie have come from the other side of the fence. I do not want crappie in the main pond. I am thinking of screening the culvert pipes. Curious what others have experienced with that approach. This won't be a perfect fix as a very large downpour can bring water (and everything else) over the road.

The adjacent property is a horse boarding/jumping facility. I believe the runoff from the property is high in nutrients and may wreak havoc with what I'm trying to do with fertilization (ie a big rain right after I've just fertilized the pond. The pond has a fountain and aerator system. I haven't turned on the aerator yet to see how it works, but presumably could provide some relief if we dropped below 12" vis.

I have some other questions about the fisheries management piece, but will keep this post to the fertilization/water quality topic.

As it may be relevant to the above, goals are bluegill fishing for the grandkids (will likely add a feeder) and management for quality (not trophy) bass. There are some healthy bass in the 3-4# range and some that need to be harvested. Plan to remove all catfish and crappie, in time.

I have some prior exposure the lake management concepts but I wanted to float this plan to this group to avoid any obvious missteps right out of the gate. Thank you!



typical weedline in Sept/October. Also shows culvert pipe:

Welcome to the forum!

I may be off base, but I'd hold off on putting any fertilizer in there. I think you have plenty with the nutrients from the horses. Check your alkalinity when you get your test results back. You might need to lime, depending on the numbers.

Look into Tilapia to keep the Algae under control, and give TP&W a call and see if Triploid Grass Carp would be an option for the other submerged vascular weeds. They like APW.

I think that if you can keep the FA from growing, and knock back some of the weeds, that will free up a lot of nutrients for a bloom.

Check in the archives, there is a relative weight chart for fish. Utilize that to check the growth rates of the fish in the pond.

Thank you for your input esshup. I actually have the test results, as follows:

(ppm)
Calcium 53
Magnesium 8
Sodium 51
Potassium 9
Boron 0.04
Carbonate 0
Bicarbonate 199
Sulfate 60
Chloride 40
Nitrate 0.02
Phosphorus 0.05
pH 7.32
Conductivity 466 umhos/cm
Hardness 10 grains CaCO3/gal
Alkalinity 163
TDS 420
SAR 1.7
Iron 0.03
Zinc < 0.01
Copper <0.01
Manganese 0.01

Regarding grass carp, that was suggested by A&M. I have a bias against it as I've only known of examples where it basically ruined the fishery. Seems there are lots of professionals using them that should able to get it right, but so often it goes completely wrong. My sample size is limited and therefore inherently biased.

flippinphil, welcome to the forum.

Just curious, why did the fisheries guy from A&M say to get rid of the APW. Wonderful plant, not real invasive or hard to control, fish love it, and you have a plastic frog. All that seems like the perfect scenario for fun.

Great question! He actually said it is native and great habitat. We discussed the depth of the pond and the fact that it did not have anywhere to really spread. He said it would probably become thicker with fertilizer. Made a comment that many have a hard time fishing around it, but with a boat not really an issue. There is also some dock access that is outside of the APW. I am hesitant to remove any of it - just don't know what to expect with fertilizer. I also read somewhere were vegetation can use the fertilizer so that no bloom occurs (somewhere in the archives); however, seems that would be widespread vegetation, which is not the case. His recommendation to treat was to thin it rather than eliminate entirely. It seems treating the algae would make it much more fishable. Other than 31 christmas trees I put in this January, it's really the only cover in the pond.

Correct, the vegetation and the FA will utilize the fertilizer before the bloom can get established. I think that if you add more fertilizer you will see an increase in FA for sure, and possibly APW.

I've noticed in ponds that had vascular weed growth, that the amount of weeds inversely corresponded to the amount of FA. (more weeds, less FA) Also, the ponds that have FA and submerged plant growth have higher secchi readings (clearer water).

In ponds where the FA and submerged weeds are severely curtailed (with the use of chemicals) a bloom is easily established. But, if rooted plants can get to the sunlight and grow (like APW can), then the bloom receeds as the plants increase in number. Also, FA usually gets it's start by growing on the bottom of the pond; it needs sunlight to do that. Even with a strong bloom, it can grow in <24" of water. The same chemical that knocks back the FA, also restricts the bloom from getting established. So it's hard to control FA while at the same time keep a good bloom going. Not impossible, just hard.

I've had good success in either getting Tilapia in a pond before the FA gets out of hand, or chemically knocking back the FA, then immediately introducing Tilapia so they can keep the FA pruned back while the bloom gets established. That way, all the Tilapia have to do is eat any FA that is <24" deep or so.

What is the rough cost of tilapia?

We want to enhance the pond within reasonable cost parameters. I do my serious fishing elsewhere; the kids' attention span for fishing averages 5.8 minutes; the owners (my in-laws) have different hobbies/priorities.

Cost of Tilapia bounce around all over the country, wtih the biggest cost of them how far they have to be transported.

Call Todd Overton http://www.overtonfisheries.com . I don't know for sure if there is anybody closer.

flippinphil what general area is your pond outside of Cowtown?

It is in Keller off 170 and Alta Vista.

esshup I am a member of a fishing club (Private Water Fishing). The company also provides lake management services and fish. I hadn't planned to add any fish but I will check with Steve Alexander on the cost. Would be great to have a turnkey management service but I get more bang for the buck fishing PWF lakes.

I am sure Steve will chime in very soon - he's Salex on the forum, IIRC, an early user of tilapia for FA control and forage.
George

Phil in my opinion Overton's has by far some of the best quality fish. My first year I bought some Tilapia from another source and then bought more from Overton's and there was a huge difference in quality and survival rates.

Overton's actually raise most of their fish themselves and
don't buy the majority of their fish from others then re-sell them to you.

Overton's is in Buffalo, Texas. Todd Overton is a PondBoss member, has a degree in Wildlife and Fisheries Science and even hosted a Picnic for NE Texas PondBoss customers last Fall. The guy that delivers my fish is Clint, who is also a fisheries biologist with a degree in Wildlife and Fisheries Management.

Several Dallas area PondBoss members drive down there about once a year to pickup their fish, and it's neat seeing the operation. Or Overton's will bring the fish to you. They deliver to Oklahoma and Louisiana so I know they would bring fish to Keller. There is a mileage fee for fish delivery, but that's true with most fish sellers.

Steve is a good guy too, he has answered some of
my questions over on the Texas Fishing Forum.

Phil, welcome to PB. A couple of initial thoughts.

I'm not sure I would do much of anything. I'd probably add 5 or 6 grass carp to cut back a little on the APW but not more than that. APW, in the proper amount, is a pretty good thing. If they start really eliminating it, I'd use a shotgun on a couple of them.

I agree on tilapia and have, in the past, paid about $10 per pound for them. They will die out in winter so will have to be restocked every year.

Your alkalinity is awfully high but I don't see a problem with it. I expect some limestone must be in the area.

The horses will add some nutrients but their droppings are mostly compressed grass due to their inefficient gut. If it were cows with that alkalinity level, it could be different.

Other than targeting the crappie for removal, there's not a whole lot I would change at this time. Your forage base sounds good if they are in different sizes. You're catching 3-4 pound bass which appears to be your goal.

I'd fish for the catfish and see how they are doing.

Make or buy a sechi disk to check on the clarity. This will identify the phytoplankton base. Phyto is the basis of the food chain for the pond.

At this time, I dang sure wouldn't fertilize.

Your best tool will be a log of all fish caught and general observations.

Thanks much Dave!

If tilapia are $10 a pound, then 50 pounds per acre is going to be $1000 per year. I probably should be asking "if this was your pond and you had $2500 a year to put into it, how would you spend it?" Maybe tilapia still makes the list, not sure, but for me the algae is a real fun killer. I hadn't really noticed it much until this spring. Must be growing and wondering if it's because we haven't added the dye like the previous owner.

I don't think you'll need 50# per acre down there. I think it's much less if they are stocked early enough in the year before FA gets it's grubby mitts on the pond. I found that the magic number up here is 40# per surface acre.

IIRC Dave and Bob tried way more than that per acre without success, but that was after FA was well established in the pond.

Yeah, we tried 70+ pounds per acre and got our butts kicked. It took cutrine, tilapia and microbes, the next year, to handle that one. The trick with FA is getting on it immediately and not letting it get ahead of you. If you do, it becomes an infestation and nothing works. As it dies back, the dying stuff becomes fertilization for the next wave.

Phil, that was at Aledo and the alkalinity was about like yours.

Phil, our average tilapa stocking rate for our 2 acre N.E. Texas pond for the past ~10 years has run about 15-20 lbs for entire pond - last year F,A, was realy bad and stocking numbers were good.
1/4 acre only 5+ lbs.
Over the 12 year lifespan of our ponds, we have never used chemicals and see no need in the future.

Quality and size of of Overton tilapia stockers are the key to fast reproduction and survivability IMO.
If tilapia is your decision, better to get on the list early - Todd sells out fast.
George

Phil, until I got more experience with the pond and was sure about what's there, I wouldn't do much. Maybe about 40 pounds of tilapia and about 6 grass carp. Grass carp are usually stocked about 10 to the acre but, at that rate, they can pretty well wipe out the pondweed and that doesn't sound like a good idea. Allen Hall(Fire is Hot) has found that Lusk was right when he said that when you wipe out one weed another takes its place. You might not like the new one.

My point is mostly that you have no experience with the pond and could screw things up. Toss in some carp and tilapia and watch, KEEP A LOG, and see what happens. Have some patience. Using up the $2,500 budget all at once doesn't make sense until you have seen it for 3 or 4 different seasons.

You need to fish it to find what is there but if you over fish, you can expect the fish to become hook shy.

BTW, don't dye it. That stuff can do a good job on weeds but it can/will also clobber your phytoplankton base which is the basis of the food chain. Build or buy a sechi disk to identify the amount of phyto that you have.

A couple of things I would do if I was you. Subscribe to PB magazine and buy a couple of books from the PB office. My favorites are Raising Trophy Bass which is about a lot more than bass and Perfect Pond, Want One? All of these things give info that you can't find on the web because it will take a long time to even figure out what questions to ask.

Put the rest of the $2,500 on hold until you know more about what might need fixing.

Oh yeah, at some point you will need to know that one inch of water over one acre is 27,000 gallons. Remember that # in August.

Dave, I am already a subscriber but I will check out the books you mentioned.

Somewhere in all the great responses above, someone mentioned over-fishing. That caught my attention and I did some searching on the forum. I think I found one post advising not to fish for larger bass more than 1-4 times per YEAR. Wow. I've been tossing in a line a couple days a week as the pond is only about 10 miles from my house. I am not always bass fishing. In fact I mostly use crappie jigs and smaller lures like road runners; however, I have caught the same (or better) bass on the smaller lures. I usually don't catch more than 2-3 bass in an hours fishing. Usually 1-2 crappie if I'm trying and the occasional heroic bluegill. I have had friends fish the pond and proclaim it to be "fished out" but I know that is not the case.

The fishing has stayed fairly consistent through the fall and winter, but it seems clear I'm probably fishing it too much. The idea of overfishing makes sense; in fact I've seen it in play out on some larger private East Texas communities. Shocking surveys indicate a healthy population of bass that is not supported by catch rates. Yet in my own neighborhood pond - before a significant fish kill - a couple of fisherman could go out and catch 10-15 bass each in the last 2 hours of daylight, very consistently. These fish were not generally "dinks" but solid keepers. Not sure why those fish never became "hook shy".

Assuming that overfishing will take it's course, it seems the best use for the pond is to create a large bluegill population for children's occasional amusement. I suspect one of the by products of fertilization, feeding, and tilapia for algae control may be some healthy bass (assuming some are harvested), but I don't think bass as the primary goal is realistic if it can only be fished once a quarter. It seems better to give this pond up to the kids and do my bass fishing elsewhere.

Phil, it isn't quite that simple as just to fish elsewhere. Lusk has said that a pond is like a garden. To sustain it, you have to harvest fish. How old is that boy now?

You're right about the fished out vs over fished.

Hi Phil,

Sorry for chiming in so late. You have received excellent advise from some of Pond Boss's best. Not sure exactly where to start. But here a few things to think about.

1) Fishing a 2 acre lake twice a week is too much to keep the bite strong.
2) I like the idea of 6 to 8 grass carp. I would also use cutrine plus to spot treat the FA. I would then stock 30 lbs of tilapia per acre. Stocking less than this will give little FA control. Moreover, if the lake has "lots" of FA (more than 15-20%) than I would think 60 lbs will not be enough. I would stock 40 to 50 lbs to the acre. If it has 30% or greater, I would be surprised that the tilapia will be able to keep up with most any reasonable stocking rates.

Dave- my son will be 9 this summer. As pertains to fishing, he thinks of it more like catching. First our neighborhood pond and now fishing together at Private Water Fishing lakes. My mom lives on Fork and he still talks about the day we went out "for three hours and didn't catch anything". If he only knew...

Steve- I think we are going to do some tilapia. Send me an email if it's something you can/want to provide.

I took my 15 year old Grandson on a guided trip on Richland Chambers last year. We caught limits of sand bass. We also got into some really big hybrids, yellow bass and medium sized blue cats. The guide told us that we ought to come back during October or November for some big blue cats. Trevor immediately responded "That's not going to happen during deer season; maybe in the Spring.".