Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Renovating a Pond or Lake? There has to be someone with the knowledge to help

Hi everyone I am a existing member but first time poster, I have about 100 acres in Missouri that my wife and I are building our retirement cabin on, before the cabin we paid to have a small pond put in, about 1.5 acres kidney shaped and about 14 foot at the dam with the plan to have the cabin right on the lake/pond. Here is the sequence of events that someone I hope can help me with

early summer of 2012 had soil scientist come out at the recommendation of contractor building my lake/pond. He conducts several tests through out my property and the short story is determined that there was ample clay to construct my pond.

Location we determined we would dam off the bottom of a hill where I have a 24/7 365 day a year spring that would fill the pond in addition to runoff, should be no issue with water to support the pond. Contractor had two bull dozers there for 6 days and I observed them cut a key where the dam was to go and dig out the area where water goes and construct the pond over a period of 6 days. All is good so far this was July of 2012 in the heat of the drought here and it was extremely hot and the spring continued to run and flow into the lake adding water rather quickly. Early spring of 2013 we had a week of heavy rain and the week prior lake was about 3/4 full, I go down and check on things and find a full breach of the dam about 12-15 feet across and about half the depth of the dam. My thought was there was too much water too fast and put too much pressure on the dam and it blew. I notified the contractor and he reluctantly came back out when it was dry (about june of 2013) and repaired the dam with bentonite (1000 lbs) and clay from the area. All was well and the lake filled to within 2 foot of full within 3 weeks.

I checked on the lake/pond a week later and the water level was now going down and continued to go down about 1 foot a week, but there were no signs of leaking I could find.

I continued to check and the lake/pond continued to leak, the spring continues to flow into the lake and it continued to lose about 10/12 inches a week. I finally did some reading on the forum and decided to try some sodium bentonite. I purchased 500 lbs of the pwder type and went to the lake/pond and got into a canoe (even though at this point the water was only 1/2 foot deep from its losses and I poured the bentonite into the lake and spread it out as best I could. The lake bottom I could feel with my paddle and it felt very soft and could easily push the paddle into the ground a foot or so. After doing this the water immediately started to come back up at the rate of about 10/12 inches a week. so I think hooray the pond is fixed and start my cabin on the other side of the lake. The water continued to rise as I was there checking every week or so. A few weeks later I added another 4-500 lbs of bentonite to areas I had not treated before and the pond filled to about 9-10 depth with about 4-5 feet to go to full pool. About a month ago the lake look as if it had stopped filling and then I confirmed about two weeks ago it was now losing water again and quit a bit. I found on the back side way below the dam what appears to be the old outlet of the spring and it is flowing. So the spring flows steadily into the pond and somewhere it looks as if the spring re routed itself and is sucking my pond dry again. I tried the 500 lb Sodium bentonite treatment again and checked it a week later and I was down another 14-16 inches. Do I let as much water drain out as possible to try and find where its going out? do I keep dumping Bentonite into it to try and plug the leak?? Should the contractor be partially responsible? I am at a loss and don't know what to do at this point.I have a lot of money into the lake and now the cabin and I am in fear I may have my retirement home on a large mosquito trap mud hole. I will try to post some pics once I get to a computer that I have some on. ANY ideas or HELP would be greatly appreciated. THANKS SOO MUCH TO ANYONE AND EVERYONE

What type of overflow system was
On the dam?

There was a dirt spillway originally and after the dam was repaired after the breach I Put in a 12" pipe at spillway to suck the extra water off as soon as it reaches full pool, it has never since made it back to full pool

Nobody that I can remember has had success with bentonite when they just sprinkled it on the water. It had to be mixed in with the pond bottom clay and compacted.

There's lots of threads about fixing a leaky pond, I'd bet 99.9% of them entail draining the pond, and properly compacting the pond basin.

How was the soil compacted?

Check to see if your county has a NRCS office. You could go talk to them too. Dams have to be designed a certain way with certain parameters met to function correctly. The NRCS office should also tell you what size your primiary overflow pipe should be, and should be able to tell you the size of your emergency overflow, and how to properly construct it.

Your problems is one of the reasons why I never recommend going with a dirt overflow as a primary overflow. Too much risk of a blowout.

The basin was compacted by the two bull dozers, and when I put the bentonite it I was pouring it in 20 lbs at a time and was able to cover the bottom of the pond where it was applied. I could see it on the bottom and was hoping it would be sacked into the leak and worked the first time. I don't think my issue is with the spillway (at least now) but more with the re routed spring. At this point I can't get the water thewater up to the spillwsy

Does your contract with the contractor specify any guarantee? Have you contacted the contractor after the first repair job? The only options I see are to drain and compact the pond bottom or let the water level drop and hope to find a specific spot it is leaking (not likely but possible) and repair that spot. I suspect that you will be needing the services of a lawyer.

What equipment other than doziers was used to make the dam.

No contracts, good ole boy contract a handshake, he has done lots of work for me through the years and always been good with any issues and fixed the breach at his expense, there were no guarantees,But after fixing thebreach he has been conveniently difficult to contact, not outright avoidance but difficult to contact. I think letting it drain down may be one way, but I just hate losing the water I already have.

And to Tums they only used two bull doziers for six days, no rollers or anything else that I saw. Thanks!!

Is the new spring big enough that it could be carrying a substantial portion of the water you are losing? Can you temporarily reroute the spring flowing into the pond so it bypasses the pond? How was the spring water dealt with during construction?

Yes it flow continuously and quit a bit, the spring water was walled off and partitioned as the pond was being constructed, but I would imagine I could divert the spring flow, it might be a bit of work, but Im not afraid of work, what you thinking?

If the new spring is substantial and not just a little water oozing from the ground I think there is a chance of finding the spot where the water enters the ground. If I wanted to deal with this without the contractor I would try to divert the spring around the pond and let it drain down and try to find where it is leaking. Most people do not have success trying this with leaking ponds but since the water is reappearing as a substantial flow and not just a wet spot there may be a fissure in the pond bottom large enough to find. I would continue trying to get the contractor to address the problem.

Thanks that sounds like a good viable option

Bulldozers do not really compact the soil. Their weight is so well distributed by the tracks that compaction is minimal. Esshup is a pond expert so please consider his advice re: draining and compacting.

I appreciate everyone's advice and will consider all my options. I am leaning now towards diverting the spring as suggested and allow the lake to drain down as low as it will go and hopefully locate the leak and then mix bentonite and clay and re line the bottom and repair the leak. This should speed the draining and allow me to try and get to it faster. What is the best way to compact the soil? You read so many suggestions from places that offer their fix, Thanks

I was just hoping there was some options that would allow me to fix it quickly with water still in it and not have to drain it

The guys above know a lot more than me, but I would "move on" from this contractor. You state he is being slightly evasive. Sounds like he really doesnt know the answer, and/or his heart isn't really into it. He's already not been able to get the pond right twice. He may have worked for you for years and is qualified in other areas, but to me it sounds like you need a guy that dedicates his life to pond building. You need a pond expert not a part time occasional pond builder. You say you've spent a lot of money and this is your dream pond/cabin. Ok so you've hit a roadblock that almost always happens in pursuit of our dreams and especially in construction projects. Ask around in your area who is the best pond builder. Then get the guy out for a free consult. See what he says and what the estimate is to get this done right once and for all. No matter what you decide to do, letting a local specialist take a close-up look and give you some free advice can't hurt.

ps: This is old, but may want to read:
http://extension.missouri.edu/p/G1555

Missouri Dept. of Conservation
fisheries private land services.
Give us a call at (573) 290-5730.

Shawn Banks Pond Boss member:
http://www.midwestlake.com/pond-n-lake-design-construction/

Very useful information thanks!

Zep's wrong about one thing -- I don't know more than him!

A consult from a real pond builder would help you quite a bit.

Anyone know one in the St Louis area?

Shawn Banks Pond Boss member:
http://www.midwestlake.com/pond-n-lake-design-construction/

Call Shawn.

Another vote for Shawn here.

Contacted them and stated they don't consult on ponds...they sent me to someone in Jeff city who also stated they were not able to help.... anyone else?

Scott, I have nowhere near the fish expertise that Shawn has, but I do have some considerable pond construction experiences, and live in Maryland Heights...about 45 minutes away. Sight unseen, it sounds as if a leak has started in the dam, and the pond basin/dam face will need compacting properly. Done with a vibratory sheepsfoot, this can be done somewhat inexpensively compared to other options. Building a pond is not all that pricey, building it right or repairs after the build, can cost more. Missouri has no help in the way of pond construction. The NRCS does, but how good the agent in Jeffco is, is debatable.

I am sending you my contact info in a private message...

You may call this guy in Missouri & discuss
your situation. If you are out of his area
maybe ask him if he can refer anyone.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/A1-Pond-Builder/380612281984951

http://www.a1excavating.net/

I'd call Mike Otto and have him consult...why take chances when you can rely on one of the world's foremost pond engineering experts? He travels, and MO isn't too far for him. If I were doing it all again I'd either save the money necessary for Otto on site for every step in the process, or I wouldn't build a pond.