Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Soil questions Digging the pond myself?

I have blue clay, soil. Good! However thinking of making a pond or two, I already have 2 the state of texas over 55 years ago dug the dirt out for highways, and guess what free ponds! Not a experienced person on any of this, so maybe use tractor, and do my best, any precautions? I need, or forget it? or what? Like I said clay soil!

Bronco...
Huge respect for the DIY dirt guy! Funny how the stuff we played around with in art class as kids is so dang important now. When my contractor grabbed a handful of blue, his smile went ear-to-ear...mine too.
Calling all dirt-guys! (I luv this part of the show)

I guess you can do it. Early ponds were dug by using horses. Other than your life, you don't have much to lose. Working on steep slopes is scary.

Thought of renting a dozer? Every little boy, no matter what our age, has wanted to rent a dozer, clear land, and dig holes. However, it's not very efficient or cost effective. A real dozer driver can accomplish more in one hour than I could in 2 days.

The last time I mentioned this dozer idea to my wife, she just rolled her eyes and walked away.

If you do it, no matter what you use, get lots of life insurance. All machinery can kill you without ever shedding a tear.

Of course I would try it.

I remember as a kid one of the neighbors digging a pond with a tractor and 3 pt. "pond scoop". I've heard them called bucket scoops as well, if you guys know what I'm talking about. He dug a small catfish pond that was maybe 1/20 of an acre. It held water and was good fishing for a few years. But the pond was pretty shallow and cattails eventually took it over.

I know just what you mean as I have a pond scoop. It has been most useful for shallow ditching and (before I had a front end loader) moving small amounts of dirt. It would indeed take a long time to dig much of a pond with one.

I have one and can't remember the real name. I used it to clean out all of the dried silt out of a small pond. My front End loader just doesn't do much digging.

They're called a fresno. "the original paddle wheel scraper".

"These grapes - they taste like fresno!"

20-some years later, I finally know what it means.

I guess it depends on how much time you have. You could dig a pond with a shovel and wheelbarrow.

Personally, I'd rather rent a track loader or dozer.

I am not sure which is more efficient for moving dirt. I find that a track loader is easier to dig with. A dozer is harder to keep a level work area (maybe it is just me).

An operator can do more in an hour than you in 2 days? I doubt that. I suspect they may be more efficient but when I can rent a loader for $50 per hour but it costs $80+ for a contractor, I suspect I can save money driving it myself, not to mention why should I pay someone else to have all the fun?

Now, they normally leave a prettier work area than I. I beleive it is because I quit too soon. If I was getting paid $80 per hour, I'd probably spend an extra 2 hours smoothing/packing the dam face, too.

They are dangerous, take your time, do not get in a hurry. If you get in trouble, quit and get some expert advice.

I have some steep dam faces. Personally, I let the experts work on them.

Been there, doing that.

Not by choice mind you. I'm forced to go the slow way bacause my parish (county) won't allow heavy trucks on my road. So, I'm digging slowly with a disk harrow, and friends and neighbors are hauling the dirt away in dump trailers. It's been about 4 years since I started, and I'm about 50% done. I keep getting bites on getting dozers and track hoes in there to help, and that would speed it up a bunch, if only I had somewhere to put the dirt.

The most important thing you need to know is that the digging is fast and easy. Removing the dirt is the hard and slow part. I can "dig" about 6" per day if I ran my disk 8 hours a day. Piling up the dirt, loading it, and waiting for the next trailer is almost a deal killer. Good luck!

Switch, yep, I expect any operator could do more in one hour than I could in 2 days.

Can a loader actually "peel" blue clay. I don't know. Most of them use dozers and I figured it was for that purpose. If not, why would anyone want a dozer.

Sure gotta agree about the fun part. My ideal birthday present would be renting a D9 for a day.

My parents have one of the pond scoops too, and I used to use it for removing excess dirt/manure from the barns and moving large rocks. They are also handy for small scale dirt moving and cleaning up creek crossings. I've heard them called by several different names, but everyone where I grew up called them "pond scoops". If you think about it they are essentially a small 3 pt mounted scraper.

Unfortunately, no, a loader can't peel undisturbed dirt of any type. Actually it can, but it just isn't feasible. It's too hard on the loader and tractor.

A scraper is the way to go. Here's one I used for a day, but it was too worn out and loose, and kept gouging. The tractor is a 125 HP Kubota.
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c394/bobad/Picture011.jpg

broncofan
take it from a guy that has tried the DIY. not really worth it depending on how big you want it. i really really would not recommend it. the equipment and as expensive as diesel is you will easily spend $100 every second or third day depending on how long you work. just try getting a few diffrent quotes and if anything i will get you the number to the guy that is finishing my pond (i tried the DIY not successfull) he gave me a hell of a price too for an acre. good luck

I was talking about a 'track loader', (a bulldozer with a bucket instead of a blade), not a tractor w/a loader.

However, I suspect you could do a decent job with a tractor loader if you loosened the dirt first with a one-way plow or a heavy disk.

Another option is to rent the equipment, DIY for the less skilled work (clearing trees, pushing/stockpiling the top soil, etc.) and hiring a skilled (retired?) operator to do the finishing work. We did this a few years back. The operator(s) would run the dozer from 7 to 3 and I'd get on it after work (or my 12 year old son) and we'd clear trees, fill ditches, etc. We rented it for a week to clean up three ponds, extended the lease another week, finally had to get a 3rd week (when another employee told me that 3 weeks = a month). Actually moved it to another farm and reworked 2 more ponds.

Get a good idea what you need done and how long it will take. There is a substantial discount for longer leases - (daily = $100/hour, weekly = $45/hour and monthly = $25/hour). Generally, 3 days rents pays for a week and 3 weeks pays for a month. So, if you need it for 3 weeks to complete your pond, you might as well keep it that last week and clear trees, shape gullies, dig that swimming pool, etc. The last week is free.

If you have a life, you probably need to line up and extra operator or two. It is hard to get 40 hours on a machine in a week if you have to take off a day here and there for business. Fortunately, between me and my 16 year old, we were able to get 38 hours on a track loader in a week (during spring break when he was out of school). Course, we were lucky, they left it at the farm an extra day before pickup.

switch,

Good stuff you are saying. Joining this thread late, but since I am a DIY person by choice and have done three ponds with three more on the way I'd just like to add my 2 cents.

Switch is right on! Get the skilled operator for the tricky parts. Use utmost caution. It will take longer than you thought and even longer than that. Patience is key.

DIY ponds is one of the most satisfying things I have ever done in my entire life....and then catching 6 pound LMB out of that pond you built with expectations for much larger fish, well it just does not get any better than that. Good job Switch.

oops. How do you edit a message?

The daily rate was $500 - $62.50/hour.

Bobdad, no where to put dirt? Why not make the dam bigger? Most dams are 3' above water, 10' wide and 1 - 3 slope. What if you raised it to 6', made it 20 or 30' wide and changed the slope to 1-6? It would be a lot easier to mow/maintain.

I started out asking around for a good contractor to build my lake. All I ever found was that it was more than I could afford, or they were not to be trusted. I got allot of horror stories about overcharges for their hours when nobody was even there!!!

This was such a common complaint that I bring it up. Keep an independent account of the hours they are working. If they start work at a certain time, write it down. If they are there and just hanging out drinking coffee, this doesn't count. If they decide to replace the sprocket on a dozer, this doesn't count. Be sure to know what hours you are billed for!!!

Anyway. I gave up on having a lake on my place and decided to just have a small pond. I rented a small John Deere 450G dozer to do the digging and realized that it was totally underpowered to do anything with. It's fine for makeing trails through the woods and smoothing out building pads, but digging in dirt, NO WAY! I ended up usuing my backhoe for this. Dig with the hoe and haul with the FEL. It took me two months to dig a 3/4 acre pond 5 feet deep with an area that is 8 feet and an island.

While makeing my trails, I realized I had a realy good spot for a lake. I kept thinking abou it and exploreing the area. Finally I decided to buy a large dozer and do it myself. $25,000 for a Case 1550 dozer. It's 160 hp and weighs 40,000 pounds. It's comparable to a Cat D6 or a John Deere 850.

The blade is 12 feet wide and it will move ALLOT of dirt in a day. If you dig in slots, the dirt doesnt' fall off the sides of the blade and you can get it to the dam fairly easily. It's allot faster than a dump truck if your moving it several hundred feet!!!

Renting puts allot of preasure on you to get it done right away. You get a newer machine, but for a large enough machine to be practical will cost you!!!

When I'm done with my dozer, I will sell it for about what I paid for it. I'll just paint "for sale" on the blade and park it in front of my place. Sooner or later somebody will buy it.

I have a few grand into it for repairs, but figure if I sold it for scrap, I'm already way ahead on what it would have cost me to hire it out. Not to mention all the other jobs I've been able to do with it on my land.

Learning to run it isn't that complicated. There is different skill levels on it, just like everything else. Digging dirt isn't one of those hard to learn things. Grading a road or making dirt flat does take some skill and allot of practice, but who cares if the bottom of your lake isn't flat?

Good luck,
Eddie

Eddie, Heading to Tyler next Friday for fish...will you be around?

Eddie I know of several people going the route you did. There is some danger of having to repair a final drive or other major component, but you can usually check these things out pretty good before buying. A good dozer will indeed usually sell for what you paid for it. If you clean them up a little before selling, maybe more!

Hey Switch,

By "hours", are you talking about hours on the hour meter?

I WISH I had a dam! I would have been finished 2 years ago! It's just a big old hole in the ground with a levee that measures 12' wide, 18" high all the way around it. I already made the levee a lot higher and wider than necessary just to get rid of a little dirt.

The first step in any substantial DIY is tuning out the naysayers. There's nothing about pond building you can't do for yourself. Do your homework, buy a machine, play on it for a month and you'll be 85% as capable as a pro. I can't imagine trying to rent a machine and get everything done in a month when dealing with work, family and weather at the same time. Go for it.

Meadowlark,

As far as I know, I will be here on Friday. At least I have no plans or emergancies comeing up. hahahaha

PM me or email me, I'd be honored to show you around and see what you think. One good suggestion could save me thousands of dollars and years of frustration!!!

Do you still have my email address?

Eddie

ML,

Are you going to Tyler Fish Farm? I need to make a trip over there soon too...

Gator

Eddie,

Yes, I sent you an e-mail...hope we can tag up.

Gator, yes I'm finally going to meet the great Bob Waldrop in person and buy his fish. From all the research I have done, Bob has maybe the best CNBG genetics anywhere in the USA. His F1 LMB are becoming the stuff legends are made of. Bob talked to me about 15 minutes a few weeks back and taught me more than I have learned in the last 15 months. You will never find Bob on the internet(he told me when I asked him about the net that he raises fish not words my kind of guy)..he is a fish man, through and through.

Before I get blasted, yes he is a Pond Boss sponser and advertiser.

I plan to be there next Friday morning around 10:00 and would love to meet you and Eddie if you guys are anywhere around.

Meadowlark,

Got your email and will respond with my information. I looked up Tyler Fish Farm for there address. Is it in Ben Wheeler?

I'll meet you there and if you don't mind, I'd love to shadow your around and soak up as much information as I can!!!!!!!!!!

My place is on the way from there to your next stop, so your more than welcome to swing by and I can show you where my lake is at so far. Also my 3/4 acre pond that I told you about.

Thanks,
Eddie

ML, does Waldrop hatch or raise Hybrid Striped Bass?

He told me at one time he has no interst in them?

I design earthworks for a living, have my own heavy equipment and have built 6 ponds on my property. Here is what I have learned along the way.

Forget about using a normal tractor to move than a small amount of earth. Its too slow and you will tear the tractor up because most tractors, at least below 100 hp are not built for heavy earth moving.

For small ponds, (<3/4 acre), a small dozer like a Cat D3 are great. Plently of hp for the blade size and they are built to push and rip earth

For larger ponds a Cat D6 or larger is really the way to go. They are big enough to push a serious amount of earth with each blade full. If you are pushing more than 100 feet, get a scraper to work with the dozer. I have a Fendt 105 hp ag tractor with a 6 cy leon scraper and it can out perform a dozer if the haul distances are long. The scraper has a difficult time loading if the clay soils are hard.

Dozers aren't that hard to learn how to use, you just have to be careful, go slow and not tip the machine over and kill yourself.

You can rent a D3 for $400/day plus fuel in most areas. If you are handy with equipment you can learn to run a dozer in a day.

I own a D3 and for my larger ponds rent a D6 with the operator. I built a two acre pond with these two dozers in two days. It had an average depth of 16 feet and required movement of about 1500 cy. It cost me $3000 for two 10 hour days for the D6 and I put about 24 hours on my D3.

You can save alot if you do some of the work yourself, just go slow and be careful.

jas,

Renting a dozer is starting to sound pretty interesting.

But the problem remains, what to do with all that dirt? Is it feasible to push it up into one massive pile that is petty high?

Using a dozer, I could finish the pond, stock it, enjoy it, and figure out what to do with all that dirt later. Do they make rugs big enough to sweep 10,000 yards of dirt under?

Bobad throws out the $64K question: On our project, we also want to unload soil somewhere. We are locked tight by trees all the way around. The plan is to waste about 12K yards at and behind the dam; we cleared about 1 acre of trees for this. Also, some will be pushed up to the perimeter to create a drive/walk around at the treeline. We have to cut a notch into the timber for a building site. I have decided to waste about 5K yards up into the (future) building site area stretching it out into the pond basin area to create a man-made bump-out peninsula. Yes, we lose some water surface area, but the resulting yard will be large enough to safely house the septic field and provide a v cool grassy knoll surrounded by water right in front of the house structure. Lastly, the project parcel is surrounded by a buffer of woods we own, then farmland. We are the low spot for about 60 acres and have collected the topsoil from hundreds of years of tillage run-off. Based on sampling, I estimate easily an excess of 5K yds of topsoil that I can offload and still have plenty for dressing the dam, damsite, building site, and the wrap-around road. Anyway, I put an ad in a midwest car/truck/RV/heavy equip mag that distributes statewide as a free mag, funded by ads. It cost $48 for 2 states for 3 weeks, published weekly. "5000 yds free topsoil, u-haul, blah bhah". I have em lined up...unbelieveable. Yes, I know topsoil can be sold, but I'm in a pretty rural area that is mostly farming. I thought the audience would be thin to none, so I didn't want to be a little greedy and risk minimal response. Besides, it's not black, black topsoil...just silty clay t-s. I am confident that my $48 investment will remove stock at no further cost to me.

Brettski: I advertised too. A few serious people responded, but most were just overly-ambitious guys with a pickup truck and a shovel. Most had no idea what it involved to fill a truck with dirt, so I warned them. I didn't want any heart attacks on my conscience!

But yea, I wish I had a better place to pile up my dirt. We plan to build a retirement cottage on one end of the pond, so I may strip the topsoil and fill the house and yard site about 10' deep in dirt. Temporarily, of course!

Excess dirt can be a problem if let be. But one can do fun things with it. Build a freakish island out in the middle of a pond, build an out-of-place mound in the back woods for the future residents, or create a cabin up top the man-made mountain. So many fun adventures. For that reason, the only soil I give away is by natural causes, such as erosion, which I am trying to slow down, also.

I designate my dirt into good clean fill material that I use for roads, building pads and of course, dam material.

The other category is bad dirt. Topsoil, sand and dirt with branches in it. That goes into a different area.

On my lake, I'm putting the bad dirt behind the dam and building up a large picnic area that will have a very gradual slope away from the dam. Something like a 2:12 slope that I'll plant grass on and make nice.

I did have to remove more trees from behind the dam for this, but in the end, I think it will be an attractive choice.

One thing to remember when piling dirt is to pack it down right away unless you are going to move it again fairly soon. Rain will erode it really quick and you end up with silt all over the place, not to mention weeds just take over faster than you'd belive. It's easier to spread it and create a nice shape to it when you first put it there than later on.

Sometimes a dirt pile will get all water loged too. If it sits and soaks up rain water, it can be near impossible to do anything with it.

I've had piles that got rained on and became totally useless for anything. You have to spread it out and wait for it to dry out enough to stop pumping water!!!

Good luck,
Eddie

I guess I need some good dirt recipes like Bubba Shrimp, and put it up for adoption. I could give away good dirt, bad dirt, fill dirt, hard dirt, soft dirt, wet dirt, dry dirt, flower dirt, tree dirt, garden dirt, grass dirt, dam dirt...

I rented the equipment and dug my all excavated 1/2 acre pond myself in a few weekends with the help from a couple of friends. The cost was about 15% less than the "estimates". By doing it yourself you are a lot more likely to end up with what you envision, not what the person you hire envisions. I had experience in layout and planning of foundations of other structures but never a pond and I had little experience on equipment. The footer for the house was dug about 3' down in undisturbed soil and I used the excavated dirt as fill for around the house. About 5' deep. In my case the cost savings on excavation for the house and savings for the pond loop vs. trenching for the Geothermal nearly paid for the cost of the pond.
Here's the pond and dirt pile

And a view of the finished product.

...livin' large, Ryan. Gorgeous layout! As I recall from previous geothermal pics, you have a considerable grade drop from behind the house and down to the pond. How much overall drainage do you think you have feeding it?

There is about 6 to 8 acres draining into the pond. A core trench was dug along the back fence and swales were made to direct more water into the pond. There is also a tile that runs around the front and one between the two small sections of woods both draining into the pond. Here's the picture taken from the second floor after a heavy rain, the water used to flow over the ground through the back fence into the creek.

...which answers my follow-up question: so, where does the water go when it's full? The picket fence will help strain out the big-uns before they start floppin' in the neighbor's pasture.

There is an 8" overflow pipe just out of view in the back corner that dumps into the creek. The idea was that inflowing water would go out near where it came in helping to minimize chemical loss and sediment/muddy water. The emergency overflow is still through the fence but I can't imagine it will ever get that high.

Dug one myself with a Ford 8N and a scraper blade. Never got it much deeper than about 4'. And it is bone dry now. But, it can be done.