I would like a second opinion on the pedigree of this fish (linked below). I am guessing 100% pure GSF. About 4.5-5" long.
Caught this out of our old refurbished pond last night while waiting to see if the FHM's would come up to the bank for some feed. Fortunately this is not out of our main pond.
I have made references in the past to this pond in previous threads, but here is a refresher. Pond was an old maybe half acre cow pond for watering livestock that had the dam broke and was nothing more than a puddle in the latest drought. I cleaned it out all but a tiny puddle in the middle that had some minnows (about the size of gams, but never identified them) and once in a while could see something a little larger moving. Maybe a yellow bullhead or GSF? Did not know. I had not discovered PBF at that time or probalby would have nuked the puddle. But I did not. Cleaned the pond out all around the puddle and expanded it to near an acre. Pond filled and I added a small amount of FHM year ago last March, 10 5-6" BG last summer and 125 3" RES late last fall.
I fear esshup's warnings of his experience with two ponds, RES and green sunfish in one of them will come to fruition. I'm afraid the RES will not stand a chance at recruitment.
If only I had found PBF earlier. If only. Oh well, when life throws you lemmons, make lemonaide.
I'm NOT going to nuke the pond now. I have a 3 acre pond to play with and this old pond was just an afterthought anyway. So I am determined to manage it best I can to make it something other than just a pool of water with some fish in it. Who knows, maybe it will just become a kids pond with lots of GSF that are easy to catch for my three smallest grandkids. But I am going to try to avoid that.
I think the RES that I put in should have been big enough to escape predation by any GSF that would have been in the pond. Likely, based on what I could see in the puddle, the GSF would have needed to be tiny for the most part so I don't think they could have got to size to eat the RES. I would guess this one GSF I caught would be the largest size, and it could not get a 3" RES in its mouth. So at least I should have the original 125 in there, even if the GSF eliminate any RES recruitment. The BG were put in the pond early enough in the summer they likely would have gotten off a spawn, although I have not done anything to verify that.
So here is the question, assuming I am NOT going to nuke the pond now. What would be a good course of action to manage around these GSF best I can? I had envisioned a mostly RES heavy pond and introducing just enough predators to keep the BG from over populating. If the GSF got a head start, from what esshup has conveyed in his prior experience (if I can find his post on that subject later will try to link it here), that likely will not happen now. The GSF will outrun the RES and wipe out any potential recruitment.
My initial thought is to go catch a bunch of 6" BG out of my main pond and put them in this old refurb pond, with the intention that if a population of sunfish explosion is imminent, I would rather it be BG than GSF. Then later put in adequate predators to controll the sunfish. Yesterday I caught 8 6" BG and about 7# of FHM from my main pond and transferred to sons pond. FHM were going crazy and in 30 minutes would fill up my minnow trap half full when I put a dozen floating pellets in the trap. BG were biting well for about an hour then backed off. Grandkids (sons kids)are supposed to be here today after school to "help" with stocking of sons pond by catching BG. Son's pond
So I think I could get some adult BG in there for recruitment to maybe over power the GSF population.
This is not a high priority pond. It is my experimental pond. It does not have to be perfect. But I would like it to be something other than just a GSF overrun pond. This may be my "Jon Monroe" pond where it evolves into different things.
Welcome suggestions or ideas as to what would be a good management option to manage around GSF, as well as confirmation on the fish really being a GSF. Open to suggestions as to what would be a good "goal" for this pond.
Charles Wallace from Wallace Fish Farms, my fish guy that the RES came from, originally suggested a HBG-HSB pond with the RES for the traditional parasite control. But I already had a big pond to fish in and did not see the additional need for a put and take fish pond with the HBG. So I foo-fooed the idea. But he had also come up with the HSB idea for sunfish control without the overpopulation problem of the LMB like you are suggesting. So I will keep that in mind.
I had already put 10 4-6" BG fairly late last summer. So the BG are already in there. Another problem with not having a plan to begin with. I put the BG in before I decided to lean towards a RES heavy pond. Did not even know if a RES pond would work, but this was intended as an experimental pond so thought I would give it a try. For some reason RES just seem to fascinate me. Have no idea why.
Just a matter if I want more BG recruitment or more GSF recruitment. My thinking was that more BG fry competing with the GSF fry would be better than letting the GSF fry have the pond all to themselves.
Will the RES spawn this year? They were about 3" when I put them in very late last fall. Probably not over a few weeks of good growth time before water got cold, so I wonder if they will get of spawning age/size this year? If not, that really is going to put the GSF with a head start............. assuming there are more of them in there.
Wanna hear something else stupid? I threw the fish back in the pond!!!!! At first thinking it might be a hybrid and threw it back. Then the "duh" moment hit me, and realized that the size of this fish and when I put the BG in there was no way this fish was recruitment from the BG I had put in. Looked at the pictures on my phone again......big mouth, slender shape............Ughhhhhhh. When it comes to ponds I feel like I'm a sixteen year old again trying to get up nerve to ask a girl to dance. KIND OF AWKWARD.
The RES might spawn this year, but with only 125 in there, I doubt the spawn would amount to much recruitment with the GSF in there. BG will dominate the pond if you don't do anything else.
O.K. One acre. Want RES. There are 10 BG in there now. Who knows how many GSF. Don't want a "big fish" pond.
""I had envisioned a mostly RES heavy pond and introducing just enough predators to keep the BG from over populating.""
In my experiences about the only way you can create a RES heavy pond is to have them in there by themselves. If you don't want them to stunt and want then to get bigger you will need to thin their numbers and this is usually done with predators. In a RES heavy pond what do we expect them to eat to grow well? The pond will not produce enough snails to feed a lot or very many RES. I don't think RES compete well with other sunfish for non-mollusk items.
I think the GSF reproduction will soon (1-3yrs) outpace the BG predation.
You have a dilemma. I'm not sure that a RES "heavy" pond is a realistic goal. Someone please prove me wrong with an example. As above: What do RES eat for good, fast growth when they are abundant and RES are the dominant sunfish in a pond?
Your problem is contamination by GSF. Without bass in my experience GSF become the dominant fish in most habitats.
You might want to redefine your goals and use HBG instead of RES or include LMB in the stocking. LMB will prey heavily on the GSF then resort eating whatever is often most commonly encountered.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/14/1403:05 PM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
The RES might spawn this year, but with only 125 in there, I doubt the spawn would amount to much recruitment with the GSF in there. BG will dominate the pond if you don't do anything else.
O.K. One acre. Want RES. There are 10 BG in there now. Who knows how many GSF. Don't want a "big fish" pond.
Sound about right?
Pretty close. But I don't mind big fish, it is just not particularly a specific goal.
I figured LMB would be my predator of choice simply because a few hundred feet away is my main pond and figured I would just catch LMB and put them in this pond as needed for sunfish control, whatever the specific sunfish variety population ends up. That was my original plan, I just was not planning on the GSF.
Have no idea if there are a lot or just a few GSF in there, but at any rate their population will rapidly expand this year when they spawn, most likely I would think. Especially till I get some predators in there.
""I had envisioned a mostly RES heavy pond and introducing just enough predators to keep the BG from over populating.""
In my experiences about the only way you can create a RES heavy pond is to have them in there by themselves. If you don't want them to stunt and want then to get bigger you will need to thin their numbers and this is usually done with predators. In a RES heavy pond what do we expect them to eat to grow well? The pond will not produce enough snails to feed a lot or very many RES. I don't think RES compete well with other sunfish for non-mollusk items.
I think the GSF reproduction will soon (1-3yrs) outpace the BG predation.
You have a dilemma. I'm not sure that a RES "heavy" pond is a realistic goal. Someone please prove me wrong with an example. As above: What do RES eat for good, fast growth when they are abundant and RES are the dominant sunfish in a pond?
Your problem is contamination by GSF. Without bass in my experience GSF become the dominant fish in most habitats.
You might want to redefine your goals and use HBG instead of RES or include LMB in the stocking. LMB will prey heavily on the GSF then resort eating whatever is often most commonly encountered.
Ok, thanks. LMB stocking in modest numbers was in the original plan and still is. I was going to let the RES spawn this year and add the LMB next year.
I would agree that my goals may not be realistic. If I had it to do over, I would have nuked the standing water (was only about 4" of water 20' in diameter. The pond was that close to being entirely dried up), Put only FHM and RES in the pond, then added the predator as needed to control the RES. I realize once the LMB were introduced eventually they would over populate, but was hoping it would take a few years if stocking numbers were low to begin with.
The above plan might not have even succeeded, but it would have had a better chance of doing so (at least for a few years) than with the GSF and BG in there.
The tens of thousands of snails in my main pond was what gave me the idea that a RES pond might work. Along with FHM for food. But I imagine you are right, what looks like a lot of snails probably would not be enough of a food source for the RES. So probably a poor goal.
I suspect now it will become a traditional BG/LMB pond with some RES and some pesky GSF thrown in. Worst case it will become over populated with small stunted sunfish or over populated with LMB, like about 90% of the ponds in this area that receive little to no management. Most of them are GSF/LMB ponds unless the owner had a specific interest in ponds. Many were stocked out of creeks and whatever was caught thrown into the pond and whatever lived and thrived is what is there. Actually managing the fish is a foreign idea to a lot of farmers.
Like I said, it is not my main pond. So if it does not turn out perfect it is not the end of the world for me. But I would like the challenge of trying to do something with it by managing around the problems.
Maybe I'll get lucky and that was the only GSF in there.................LOL. Dream on
Thanks for all the thought and good info. Not only for this post but the many others you and others have posted that have helped me understand ponds much better than I did a year ago.
Would you entertain the idea of feeding the fish in that pond? Either by hand every day or with an auto fish feeder?
What other goals do you have for that pond?
Probably not. I actually really enjoy hand feeding and that is more enjoyable to me than fishing. I like to watch the activity after the feed is put out. FHM's have been going nuts the last couple days. BG just starting to show a little activity. But we travel a lot and are not always around. We got rid of all livestock and have no pets so we can travel without leaving obligations for others at home, so the fish have to be able to be left to their own devices quite a bit of the time. I don't want to put the obligation on someone else to have to fill the feeders while we are away.
What other goals for this pond? It be one of my diversions to keep me entertained now that I am not needed for the day to day operations around the farm. Once a person is no longer needed for the daily grind, he has to find something that is hopefully not illegal or immoral to keep him entertained and fill up the day. Some call it retirement.
With only 10 Bg in there, you might get some hybrid BG naturally. If you do catch any BG, take them out.
I'd consider feeding in the pond, and if there are kids in the extended family, it would make a pretty good kids fishing pond.
I might adjust the amount of HSB once the size of the pond is known.
It is just a hair under an acre, according to the last Google Earth pic. Max depth is 9' at full pool but not a lot of area at that depth. A fair amount of shallows, as I expanded the pond by going around it with a backhoe even after it initially filled after the initial refurbishment. No plan along with extra machinery sitting around not being used and time on my hands. Not a well thought out master plan.
Like I said, this is my experimental pond. In so many ways.
Had three of the grandkids at 10,9 and 6 ages come up today after school to fish for BG out of our main pond to stock the pond I refurbished for them. BG action still a little slow with the cold water, although it was pretty good for about an hour yesterday.
I have a feeder on the pond, and one bag (50#) lasts a month. TH makes larger feeders, so you could be gone for probably 3-4 months and still not run out of food. In my pond, I still hand feed when I'm there, and the fish know it. They'll follow my footsteps to the feeder and I grab a handfull of food & toss it in the pond. When they clean it up, if I have the time, I'll throw out another handfull and continue to watch them.
I have RES eating pellets off the bottom in my pond, and they'll grab the slowly sinking pellets too.
Since this is a test pond, let me throw this at you. Stock 500-700 of the largest RES that you can find this Spring. If they are 5"-6" then they should spawn this year. As soon as it cools down enough in the Fall, stock 75 HSB about 10" long. Feed 'em until you leave, then empty out the feeder until you get back in the Spring and the water warms up.
Putting in HSB instead of LMB means you can always put in LMB, but once the LMB are in there, they are in there. This year, yank out every GSF and BG that you catch.
I can only speak from GSF experience in Southern ponds.
They only spawn annually and, sooner or later, seem to disappear. They just get out spawned by the BG. And, I think that's a shame. They will out fight a BG every time. I think of them as a fun fish and have stocked them several times.
It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.
Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.
Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
DD1 says: ""They only spawn annually and, sooner or later, seem to disappear. They just get out spawned by the BG."" I also find this usually true PROVIDING there are LMB in the pond. LMB seem to eat a proportionally larger amount of GSF compared to BG when both sunfish are present is similar numbers until the GSF become scarce. If it is an experimental pond I like esshup's idea of adding HSB and see how the GSF perform with HSB as predator??? Doesn't work add LMB. Interesting test for all of us to learn from.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
Interesting, and good point about always being able to add LMB later. Like esshup pointed out, once LMB are in there, they are there to stay.
Be in the land down under for 10 days, but when get back will fish it hard. BG and GSF should be very active by that date. Will pull out any BG and GSF I can catch. Maybe that will give me a better idea of the amount of GSF in there. Have some tiny hooks and plenty of earth worms.
If hardly catch any GSF, may just let things go as they are till late summer.
Esshups idea of adding more RES is interesting, but I had a heck of a time getting the 250 (125 each pond) I got. Fish truck did not have any and I took all Wallace could get out of his sort. Seems there was a poor hatch or something for RES for this area last year. Maybe better this year or could find another source.
Put about 3 pounds FHM in yesterday trapped from main pond to give the RES some
A 4 hr drive is well worth taking to get some desired and needed fish. Make it a day trip with your best friend. Or spend an overnight and come home the next day. Either way it is a small amount to pay for premium fish that will create lots of family memories. About all fish farms have facilities to bag fish and oxygenate the bags for safe travel home. The main and most important rule to remember for this is to get the fish while the weather and water is cool. Then your survival rate of the fish will be much better. Also for a 4 hr trip tell the fish farm employee to NOT over crowd the fish in the bags for best chances of travel and arrival. Ask if they have a guarantee of live arrival if you go straight home. This will emphasize low stocking rates in the fish bags.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/16/1402:11 PM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
Ok, thanks for the advice on transporting live fish. I wondered how long fish would survive in a bag and what point a guy would need to go to some sort of live aerated container.
I could probably rig up a tank of sorts with aeration if I needed to, but sounds like the bags would suffice.
I'm assuming the larger the fish, the more difficult to transport safely in a bag?
Adding some more RES would certainly give me a better chance at what I am trying to do. Had the pond been "clean" I just thought I would let the RES and FHM reproduce up to the point of needing predators, then introduce the predation. Thus the low initial numbers would work. But with other competing fish, and aggressive fish to boot, likely like esshup provided example in another old thread, the GSF would keep the newly hatched RES from ever making it to adults.
I built a 5 acre pond 4 years ago. Don't know how but found out I had green sunfish and crappie in pond. With my stocking plan blown, I decided to try something else. I purchased 85 1 to 3 pound LMB, and 250 6 inch LMB. I never catch a green sunfish now and the crappie I am catching are nice in size. The bass did their job. Now, 3 years later , I am starting to catch bass of all different sizes. No sign of stunting yet, but will start taking my first bass out this year.Plan on buying more flat head minnows, also have lots of copper nose BG. Spend the money on the large bass, they are worth it, plus you have nice fish to catch right off the bat.
Ok, thanks for the input Russell. I stocked my main pond with LMB last fall, so the tentative plan is as these fish gain size to catch some of them and transfer over to this old refurbished pond. It appears that at the stocking rate of 100 LMB per acre on my main pond (3 acres, 300 LMB), that is on the high side from what most of the experts are now recomending. So I should be able to catch some of these LMB and transfer them over to the old pond as needed. Old refurbished pond is about an acre.
As a further update to the "project"............. I have not caught any more GSF, although have only fished it a couple hours two different days. Hope to get more time to fish it to see what is there.
But............ did catch two yellow bullheads last night and four tonight. So the bullheads I suspected would be there are really there. Likely more than just a few.
So at this juncture I have to make a decision of when to put the apex predators in the pond. If those bullheads get a spawn off later this summer with nothing in the pond to control the offspring, I could end up with a pond full of stunted bullheads. All the bullheads looked very healthy (have been feeding them pellets ). A couple were 9", the others were slightly smaller.
Also put in 100 more + or - 1-2" RES and who knows what else. See thread Ye old fish truck strikes again. I picked out about 50 of the biggest and best to grow out in my forage pond, another 50 or so went 25 each to son's and daughters refurbished ponds, and the remaining went in this pond. Was going to put some in my main pond, but with the uncertainty surrounding what I was getting, did not want to take the chance of contaminating my main pond. So this pond got whatever these fish were, that were supposed to be RES. Hopefully most were actually RES. With them being small fish (that I am not good enough at identification of such small fish), they might end up being a snack for the bullheads or GSF. Fish were supposed to be 3-4" but what was left over after keeping the biggest for the forage pond, they were more like 1-2".
May have another 250 1-3" RES to put in later as the fish truck promised to bring some more because of my dissatisfaction from the first bunch of fish. They could not promise me larger fish.
So that is the situation as it stands. Now have to decide what to do about predators because of the bullheads.
Update: Well I definitely have bullheads and GSF. Been catching both and removing from the old pond. Have lots of 3-4" GSF that I think are on spawning beds because in about 18" of water I can drag a #10 jig hook with about anything on it and get a strike along the shore line. If I don't get him the first time, keep dragging the jig past the same point and 8 times out of 10 will eventually get him. I say him because they are in male spawning colors.
Has caused a change in my goals. Will remove as many GSF and BH as I can, but know it is a hopeless cause. Will just try to minimize their reproduction. Put 4 12" CC and one 9" LMB and about 30 6-7" BG along with some other smaller BG. Will put in a few more LMB as I catch them out of the main pond.
Figure the pond will fill to capacity with some kind of fish, and the more fish I get in there other than GSF and BH, the more desirable fish in comparison to the unwanted fish there will be. In other words, will just try to out-spawn the BH and GSF and put some predators in to control the fry.
My intent was to not put predators in till next year, but with the level of GSF and BH I am catching, figure I can't wait that long or will have a complete pond filled with GSF and BH.
I really don't mind having some BH and GSF in this particular pond. I'll have to say, if nothing else is biting, they will still take a hook. So that is one positive thing about these two species of fish. I just don't want them to dominate the pond. I wouldn't mind some hybrids at all also with the GSF. I have been catching about 5% hybrids out of my main pond compared to the pure BG. They are NICE fish. Fat and some of the biggest and most aggressive I have in the main pond (and I may be catching a higher percentage of them because of their aggressiveness than what is actually representative in the pond total numbers)
Evolving goals. And that is ok. This IS my experimental pond. Glad I don't have this problem in my main pond.
Hey snrub, I was/am in the same situation as you(minus the BH), and wanted to work with what I had. Here is the link to that evolution I went thru. I would agree with you, the more stuff you get in there of the things you want, the more the others will start to suffer. I am now starting to get some hybrids in the pond from the BG I stocked, and I am ok with that(just don't tell Sparkie). I personally think these "change of plans" are good times to really learn. It forces us out of our comfort zones and we discover how much more there is to it all.
OK, thanks for that link. I read your first post and can already guess what is coming. Mouth in those pictures does look big.
I had not run across that thread in all my reading of old posts. Glad you mentioned it. I'll get to the rest of it tonight.
One big problem with just starting over (besides the cost) is it is a long time till a person has catchable size fish. What I already have in there are just getting big enough to be nice size by late this summer.
Ok, read the whole thread fish n chips. Great thread and a lot of info.
You ought to go back in and update that thread and tell us how the fishery is now. Has it turned out like you planned? What things would you have done different? Would you do it over the same way now that you know what you know? etc.
That would help the rest of us even more, knowing what level of success you have achieved trying to use management to overcome adversity rather than starting over by killing off the pond.
Here is fish-n-chips link again as it was kind of small and easily missed above in case someone else wants to read it.
I have a couple fish that came out of the above mentioned pond. I'm wondering if they are pure green sunfish or hybrid. Have been putting all hybrids I catch out of our main pond into the old pond, so these could have been some I put in. Or, they could be some of the original fish from the old pond.
Fish #1 I put back in the pond as I thought it was a hybrid. Mouth did not look big enough (to me) to be pure GSF. The next three pictures are all of fish #2 and it did not go back into the old pond. If it was not pure GSF it looked to me to be very close to it. Very large mouth.
Would like some opinions to the species or hybridization of these two fish.
I want to keep the hybrids to grow them out to nice fish, but want to remove any pure GSF. On the smaller fish I don't seem to have as much problem telling the difference. The GSF large mouth and more slender body compared to a BG seems obvious. But was having trouble with these larger fish telling if they were hybrid or pure GSF.
Snrub, I have a hard time too with identifying a pure GSF/Hybrid as they get a bit older. I throw back the ones that look like hybrids and when they get old enough to tell male/female, then they will get sorted again as per sparkplugs recommendations.
Originally Posted By: snrub
You ought to go back in and update that thread and tell us how the fishery is now. Has it turned out like you planned? What things would you have done different? Would you do it over the same way now that you know what you know? etc.
That would help the rest of us even more, knowing what level of success you have achieved trying to use management to overcome adversity rather than starting over by killing off the pond.
Here is fish-n-chips link again as it was kind of small and easily missed above in case someone else wants to read it.
snrub, I think fish #1 looks like a hybrid, while #2 favors a GSF.....not to say there isn't any BG in there, but it's pretty heavy on the Greenie. I would've culled it as per your plans.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
snrub, I think fish #1 looks like a hybrid, while #2 favors a GSF.....not to say there isn't any BG in there, but it's pretty heavy on the Greenie. I would've culled it as per your plans.
Ok, thanks. The last thing I want to do is to get the x%$#&***% GSF that spawned all those little 3-4" ones I'm catching now............... and throw it back in the pond.
I need to catch a bunch more of my 9" LMB out of the big pond and get them to the old pond and working on those small GSF, but not having a lot of luck catching LMB. Part of the problem is the BG are just so much fun to catch, I kind of ignore fishing specifically for the LMB.
Ok, time for an update on this pond with the GSF and BH problems.
Decided to just live with them and manage around them. Been catching by hook and line and trapping as many GSF and BH as we can. Used a larger fish trap to trap the larger BH's and several minnow traps to trap the smaller GSF. Also the BH spawned and I caught hundreds of the half inch long little black things with a dip net around the shore line.
Abandoned plans for a RES heavy pond. As we are removing the BH and GSF are also catching 4-5" BG out of our big pond and putting them in this pond. Have probably put at least 250 of these BG along with a few larger and smaller ones.
Also have been adding the BG/GSF hybrids to this pond as we catch them out of our big pond. Probably have put about a dozen of the hybrids most in the 7-8" range.
Also caught and added 6 LMB ranging from 9-12" over the last several months. Caught one of those a few days ago that has grown to 14" so the GSF and BH diet it has been on seems to agree with it.
The 200 RES I ordered from the fish truck that turned out to be of questionable pedigree, I put some of them in this pond. There was definitely GSF genes in some of them. They were not very big though so I imagine most of them became GSF fish food. But if some of them survived, they were surely some of them RES and the rest maybe hybrids or maybe just more GSF. Did not figure they could hurt much.
Oh, put about 15 CC from my other pond in also. Hopefully they will eat some of the BH.
Anyway that is the update. Been entertaining trapping/catching BH & GSF while catching small BG to put back in their place.
It will become a traditional LMB, CC, BG pond with some RES, GSF, hybrids and BH for variety. Maybe.
Catching BH fry with a dip net from the shore this summer. All I can catch at this size is this many less to trap and catch by hook and line later. Over a couple of weeks this summer actually caught quite a lot this way. I would estimate in the hundreds.
These in the picture were actually caught in the minnow trap along with a larger BH and several GSF.
Maybe I should just modify my goals for the pond to manage for trophy GSF.
For all those of you interested in trophy GSF, pictures below of my start. I know there will be at least...... oh..... maybe one of you interested. Not mentioning any names, Dave.
More GSF than most pond owners ever want to see in a lifetime.
Well this is a hopeful sign. Normally only catch GSF and BH in the minnow trap.
Today caught this nice little BG fingerling. I have not moved any fish this small from my other pond, so a pretty sure sign this one was from recruitment. Not very many, but it is a start. The GSF is about 2.5-3" so I would guess the little BG a couple inches.
I would be happy with some GSF mix. Been watching for hybrids hoping some would turn up from the RES stocked. Every once in a while I see a GSF that looks like more orange on the ear tab that makes me think some RES in it, but every other feature says pure GSF. So I cull them. If I was to see anything else that indicated hybrid I would keep them. Would really like to see some RES/GSF hybrids in this pond.
Update: Well I definitely have bullheads and GSF. Been catching both and removing from the old pond. Have lots of 3-4" GSF that I think are on spawning beds because in about 18" of water I can drag a #10 jig hook with about anything on it and get a strike along the shore line. If I don't get him the first time, keep dragging the jig past the same point and 8 times out of 10 will eventually get him. I say him because they are in male spawning colors.
Has caused a change in my goals. Will remove as many GSF and BH as I can, but know it is a hopeless cause. Will just try to minimize their reproduction. Put 4 12" CC and one 9" LMB and about 30 6-7" BG along with some other smaller BG. Will put in a few more LMB as I catch them out of the main pond.
Figure the pond will fill to capacity with some kind of fish, and the more fish I get in there other than GSF and BH, the more desirable fish in comparison to the unwanted fish there will be. In other words, will just try to out-spawn the BH and GSF and put some predators in to control the fry.
My intent was to not put predators in till next year, but with the level of GSF and BH I am catching, figure I can't wait that long or will have a complete pond filled with GSF and BH.
I really don't mind having some BH and GSF in this particular pond. I'll have to say, if nothing else is biting, they will still take a hook. So that is one positive thing about these two species of fish. I just don't want them to dominate the pond. I wouldn't mind some hybrids at all also with the GSF. I have been catching about 5% hybrids out of my main pond compared to the pure BG. They are NICE fish. Fat and some of the biggest and most aggressive I have in the main pond (and I may be catching a higher percentage of them because of their aggressiveness than what is actually representative in the pond total numbers)
Evolving goals. And that is ok. This IS my experimental pond. Glad I don't have this problem in my main pond.
I really don't know how others feel about Spotted Bass, but they are bold aggressive rascals. Might be worth trying them out on a small scale to help manage the GSF and BH's? Something to think about?
I doubt that it would make much difference what the type of bass is. In an established pond, with all sizes of bass, the bullheads somehow seem to get and maintain a footing.
However, they control the smaller ones but not the larger ones.
Last edited by Dave Davidson1; 10/22/1405:07 PM.
It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.
Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.
Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Here is an article about them, with an interesting map that shows them being native to the very small area of SE Ks I live in. There is a small area of drainage that drains into the Spring River drainage into Missouri that is unique to SE Ks. Although on the map it appears the SE Ks area drains down into Oklahoma which would indicate the Neosho River. So not sure about all that. Anyway, it shows Spotted Bass in my area.
Thanks for the suggestion. The fish has my interest peaked at least.
I would stick with LMB for GSF and BH control, I have to admit having a few spots in the pond would be fun. I caught a few spots at Grand Lake of the Cherokees in northeastern OK earlier this spring while fishing the NBAA national tournament. I would not be surprised if there are some spots around in your area.
Honestly, I think you'll accomplish more with your largemouth than you will a population of spotteds. I entertained the idea of spotteds along with my smallmouth, but found, in admittedly limited sources, that spotteds will outcompete smallies and possibly overpopulate. Definitely intriguing, but buyer beware.
I'm trying walleye with YP to control GSF and it does not work in a good habitat pond. WE and GSF are not compatible as far a predator and good prey item. Note the picture (ewest 10-16-14) above which is a representation from dual minnow traps set in the fishery.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 10/23/1408:41 AM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
That is a lot from just two minnow traps in a single set. Can't remember if I would have had that many in one trapping total from two traps but at the worst pretty close. I can trap for a few days, moving the traps around, and definitely reduce the catch numbers. When the traps start producing less and less and the catch size gets a lot smaller will lay off for a while. Just have one minnow trap out in the old pond now and get from zero to two GSF and up to a couple BH.
Not sure if I'm actually reducing the population that much, or simply trapping the ones that have become accustomed to the feed and go in the trap well. Gives me some personal satisfaction that there is positive progress anyway.
Caught two LMB last night out of the old pond (dang! forgot the mouth gape), one 13" and one 14 1/4. That is pretty darn good considering there are only six or eight in there moved from my other pond. Caught one a while back at 14" also. The 14" ones seemed to be fat and healthy. The 13" looked ok but not especially fat. Was totally surprised because wife and I were casting small plastic jigs (1/32 oz) to see if we could catch any larger GSF. Did not expect the LMB to jump on the hook. They were in a couple foot of water cruising the shore line, I would imagine looking for a GSF meal.
Here is an article about them, with an interesting map that shows them being native to the very small area of SE Ks I live in. There is a small area of drainage that drains into the Spring River drainage into Missouri that is unique to SE Ks. Although on the map it appears the SE Ks area drains down into Oklahoma which would indicate the Neosho River. So not sure about all that. Anyway, it shows Spotted Bass in my area.
Thanks for the suggestion. The fish has my interest peaked at least.
Yea, I have to tell you I love those "Spots." The ones I catch are like sticks of dynamite with fins and tails. The phrase "big things come in small packages" comes to mind when I think of them. Built like small torpedo's they are real acrobats & are always willing biters. Biggest I've caught has been around 3 pounds. Seems like when you catch one all the others race over to area where you are fishing and stack up like cord wood eager to take your bait. It's not the kind of behavior you would expect from a Bass? To me they act more like a White Bass than a Largemouth? Before these I don't think I had ever caught a Spotted Bass. They're probably not for everyone? But I'm huge a fan of them now!
My trapping this summer has used three bare wire mesh minnow traps; 2 regular Gee minnow traps and a large cylinder trap 30"x15"dia. Drab color bare wire and non rubber coated traps catch more fish vs shiny metal or rubber coated. Traps soak for 2 to 4 days and catches of GSF in the 3 traps range from 19 to 113 (Ave 51). GSF can be a real nuisance when bass are not present. I will likely have to renovate.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 10/24/1406:58 PM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
Mesh size for my traps is standard 1/4 hardware galvanized cloth purchased at builders supply places. I have both commercial traps and homemade traps with 1/8", 1/4" and 1/2" mesh sizes. Examples: Gee Brand minnow traps http://www.easternmarineoutlet.com/gees-galvanized-minnow-trap-g-40
Thanks for doing that Bill. If only JHAP and D.I.E.D. would log on and see that's our beloved GSF now enjoy a proper home and are going down in history...not just infamy. Those two guys haven't been online for either side of a year. Don't suppose they both suffered some horrible fate in the mouth of the terror of their ponds, do you? GSF, as we know, are aggressive beasts.
Now those misguided enlightened individuals that profess to see positive qualities in the damned much maligned fish will have an easy reference for additional foolishness enlightenment.
It is just that JHAP and D.I.E.D are so busy removing excess GSF from their pond trying to keep it in balance they have no time to visit the forum.
LOL! I might have to take over for these guys as representing the fine fish that is the green sunfish. I never understood it until I experienced the power of this magnificent fish
Yep, the haters have an aversion to busted tackle. These guys certainly don't get hook shy.
I once drank the "Hate the GSF Koolaid". Then I started catching some bigger ones. When I caught a "big" one I was disappointed by the size and would toss them on the bank. Then I asked myself why I was fishing if I didn't enjoy the fight. That's when I stopped trying to eliminate them.
Mine must have come from the hatchery when I initially stocked.
The fight is/was different than a BG. They try to take your fishing pole away from you.
The growing seasons are longer here and more of their offspring get eaten. In the absence of bass, they, like other crosses, would certainly over populate. I can see where that makes a difference up North. But, in a balanced pond in a warmer weather environment, I have never seen them dominate a pond like the guys up North do. With bass, they tend to pretty well die out over time. They just cannot compete with BG and bass reproduction numbers.
Since there are no large predators in my forage pond, they seem to make up about 50% of the population. That will certainly increase over time even though they only spawn annually and BG have a rolling spawn.
I do not hesitate to transfer them from my forage to my bigger pond. To me, they are just more bass food. If a couple escape predation, I will appreciate the fight.
If you tied a 7" GSF tail-to-tail with a 9" BG, the BG would be drowned in a short time.
It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.
Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.
Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
GSF, what's that? Are you talking about swamp trout?
My brood pond GSF experience mirrors Dave's, and in 15 years, I've never seen, seined, or caught a GSF in the big puddle. If you have larger alpha predators, GSF just don't spawn enough to mess things up. At least that's been my experience.
What has really surprised me is that CNBG/GSF hybrids are nonexistent in the brood pond. Different spawning cycles maybe? I would have thought at least once a year they would have synced up.
Last edited by FireIsHot; 01/16/1507:29 AM. Reason: ADHD
Well I'm about as close to the middle of the northern and southern ponds as one can get, so it will be interesting to see how my old pond fares with its GSF population. I had a few larger ones and a good bunch of smaller ones, now I've introduced adult (5-6") BG and a few LMB so it will be interesting to see how the GSF fare.
I've quit trapping the GSF and BH's and going to see what evolves. Will likely pull out every GSF and BH I catch by line, and otherwise let the LMB do their thing.
Would you entertain the idea of feeding the fish in that pond? Either by hand every day or with an auto fish feeder?
What other goals do you have for that pond?
As an update to this thread, actually did start feeding in this pond about 6 days a week. Basically every day while water temperatures were above 55 degrees but would miss a day once in a while. Will start up again feeding next spring as the water warms, probably about mid-March or first part of April.
Another update to the GSF saga. Been feeding them (along with the BG when the BG can beat the GSF to a pellet) and when the feed hits the water you would think a school of Piranhas were in the water instead of sunfish. Those greenies really put on a show at feeding time.
Lots of 5" GSF and also catch about 2 GSF to 1 BG when fishing, so I'm not too unhappy with that catch rate.
Have to be a little careful feeding this pond as there is no aeration (this is my old refurbished 1 acre pond) and I do not want to get the biomass so great there is a fish kill. Besides, don't think I could afford the feed bill if I fed all the feed these GSF would eat. Have never found the point of satiation but instead just feed a couple pounds of feed for the acre of water.
Also catch quite a few 4-6" BH from last years spawn. Still removing the BH and GSF as I catch them, but had a minnow trap in the water for about a week and caught very few small GSF or BH, so took the trap out. I think the half dozen LMB I put in there last year along with the larger GSF are taking care of the smaller fish.
Will probably start returning the best of the best GSF back into the water and try to grow some really nice GSF. If there is such a thing.
Cool stuff snrub! I want to grow these beauties to unbelievable proportions. Where a chocolate lab is at risk swimming in the water. The pond I'm using is aerated and exchanges its water at least once every month so I will really be pushing the food. It's a little .2 acre pond and if time permits this weekend the tag gun will get used.
My jury is still out. We've had some really big gully washing rains in the last few years. A number of my hybrid sunfish have washed out of my uppermost pond, through three settlement ponds, and into my main BG/LMG/HSB pond, which also has RES we seldom catch, big-bully and hookshy channel cats, a number of well behaved white catfish, and a renegade bunch of black crappie.
Im not sure of their true heritage, but we now have fish with mostly GSF characteristics, although they still retain some HBG characteristics and coloring. They are agressive and fun to catch. Evey one we catch goes into one of my culling cages for the next neighborhood fish-fry cook out.
I just don't know what kind of mutants I may end up with if they start to party with my pure strain BG, my RES -- and who knows, maybe even my love starved crappie.
All this talk about GSF lately got me interested in just what was currently in my old pond. So I set out to catch some GSF. Crazy thing, I try to catch GSF and I caught mostly BG for the first hour! Go figure.
But then the GSF got with the program and I caught several. So here is some info for all you GSF lovers out there (and all you closet GSF lovers that are afraid to admit what a wonderful fish they are ). Pictures for future reference and posterity below. I have decided to make Dave Davidson proud of me, and any GSF that escapes me and reaches the length of 6.5" or greater earns the right to go back in the pond to grow out bigger. Maybe I'll grow a 9" GSF some day. So three were returned to the water live today. The rest.......... they were returned to the water also but as catfish and/or snapping turtle food in a somewhat vegetative state.
I apologize for the poor quality of this picture. I took another but it was worse. Seems like I have a hard time keeping from shaking any more when trying to hold something like a camera or in this case a phone still.
This obviously is a GSF or at least a lot of GSF influence. But what I would really like to know is if it has any other genetics in it. The mouth seems a little small to me to be a pure GSF.
Here is the deal. This came out of my main 3 acre pond. I have been putting fingerling fish from my sediment pond over into this pond for several months now off and on. A small portion of the fingerlings have had a definite GSF slant if not pure GSF. Not high numbers of these fingerlings but a few. I have an explosive number of BG in the main 3 acre pond and have yet to see any LMB recruitment so I'm not too concerned that a few GSF are going to cause any significant harm to the fishery and I would actually like to introduce some hybrids in the mix. So a handful of GSF in the main pond does not concern me.
Last fall I stocked the sediment pond with 200 RES and 100 CNBG from Dunn's Fish Farm. Most of the fish were only 1" to 1.5" long. Hard to get an absolute identification at that stage, at least for me. But in the bags, the fish that were supposed to be RES definitely had a different "look" to them than the ones that were supposed to be the CNBG. Although I did not handle each individual fish, I did gaze at the bags for an extended period trying to pick out any fish in the respective bag that looked "different" or out of place. I saw none. The fish looked very uniform with nothing to make me suspect there were any off species. Does not mean there were not, just not that I could tell.
I had previously put FHM also in this sediment pond from my forage pond. I hand sorted a small number of these and am sure only FHM were in the traps.
One other twist to this story is that after stocking the CNBG and RES from Dunn's along with my own FHM, I happened to catch 4 nice RES out of my main pond in the 6" to 9" range. All four fish were definitely RES, but one that appeared to be a male did have some reddish tint to the edges of the fins suggesting it could have had some other genetic influence (such as GSF) although the mouth was small and in every other aspect looked like the other RES. These four fish also went into the sediment pond.
I have been trapping fingerling fish (minnow traps)most all summer out of this sediment pond and transferring them to my main 3 acre pond. Probably one in every 30 fish has definite GSF characteristics. What I can not tell for sure is if they are pure GSF (some of them look like it) or if they are hybrids. If they are hybrids, I welcome them. If pure GSF, not so much so (although as I mentioned, I'm not terribly worried given the gazillion BG they are being mixed in with). I've probably put a total of around 500 fingerling fish transferred from this sediment pond to the main pond. From my best identification attempts they seem to be mostly CNBG with a fair number of RES (they definitely look different than the CNBG and the larger ones can have a tiny orange or red speck on the ear tab - GSF influence will usually have more of a reddish translucent margin around all of the tab rather than a solid looking speck of color at the end of the tab). Then there are also some obvious hybrids based on the GSF markings influence but an obviously too small mouth for pure GSF. Then a few that just look like GSF. (I have looked at a LOT of small GSF out of my old pond by trapping them in minnow traps last summer).
Ok this is getting way past long winded. But the point is, the picture below is one of these fish that was transferred earlier this summer into my main pond from the sediment pond. Caught this one last night in the main pond and it has grown from around 2" up to this 5" fish. It looks like a lot of GSF influence for sure. But does anyone see any other species in it to make them believe it is a hybrid? The mouth is big, but it just does not seem like as big of mouth as the native GSF that come from my old pond.
So that is my question. Is this a pure GSF, or a hybrid? My hopes is that it is a hybrid. If it is, it has the potential to get larger than a pure GSF and make a nice fish. (It went back in the pond, by the way). For one fish, it makes little difference. But the question in my mind is, am I transferring a number of GSF over into my main pond, or are all of them actually hybrids????
There should have been no GSF in the sediment pond. Obviously either the one large RES (over 8") that had the red margins on the fins was a hybrid and did a bang up job of reproducing its genetics with one of the other RES and his genetic GSF portion really came out, or the genetics from Dunns was less than stellar. Or somehow GSF got into this sediment pond. I do know that I did get at least a number of pure RES and CNBG from Dunn's because I have caught a number of both from the sediment pond in the 5-6" range that looked fine (and also transferred them to my main pond). So I know not all the fish could have had GSF or been hybrids. And yet all the fish in the bags looked uniform....... Tis a puzzlement!
All the runoff water to this pond comes from my property either from a farm field or farmstead. No water where GSF could come from. I have added no GSF to this pond other than the one RES that I would have said was a very colorful male with the potential to have some GSF genes based on the reddish tint on the borders of his fins (he had a small mouth). I've had trouble with Dunn's fish purity before ( see ye old fish truck strikes again ) and the 200 RES were actually free replacements from my previous experience (I bought the 100 CNBG). Thus my care in observing all the fish in the bags to look for "off" types or anything that would suggest the lot was un-pure. And I know a lot were pure because I have now caught them and both the RES and CNBG look fine. I do have regular green herons, GBH and a great white egret that have visited regularly since last fall, but most foo-foo the idea that birds carry and stock fish in ponds. Raining GSF and they came from the farm field anyone?
I am at a loss where all the GSF influence has came from. I can only guess and have no really good guesses.
Ok, this is EXTRA long winded. For anyone that has made it this far, is the picture below a pure GSF or a hybrid with a lot of GSF characteristics? And if it is a pure GSF, where the heck did it come from? If it is a hybrid, I hope I have transferred lots of them into my pond. If it is pure GSF, not so much so.
As time goes by and some of these grow to a larger size in the sediment pond so I can catch them via hook and line, will try to get better pictures and follow up on how these fish eventually end up. See if they grow to hybrid size or are just GSF.
Guess that is what keeps it interesting. The unknown.
I think GSF is just part of the environment in this part of the country. A person would drive themselves nuts if the had a zero tolerance no GSF policy.
The photo isn't great, but it looks all GSF to me.
That's the thing, though. In some cases you cannot be sure without detailed examination by a professional, and even then they are still human, they can make mistakes, and they may even have to play it by ear once in awhile. Guarantees of pedigree among curiously appearing lepomids are in short supply, I have noticed. And for good reason.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
Kind of what I figured sprkplug, but thought I would post it in case some of you guys saw something specific that told you there was other sunfish involved.
It looked awfully green sunfishy to me to. The one thing I was unsure of was the mouth size. Thought it might be a little small in relation to body height. But so hard to tell.
I may just have to let some of them grow out and see what they become. If they get to 9-10" size and over a pound, more likely something besides GSF is involved.
Thing of it is, I just don't know where the pure GSF could have even came. I would think (but don't know), even if there was contamination from the fish farm, the contamination would far more likely be hybrids rather than pure GSF. That would seem logical to me, considering they sell hybrids and in general push them over the CNGB (they do not even list the CNBG as one of their species on their web site, but when you go to the price list to buy fish the CNBG is available - that tells me they much rather sell hybrids over the CNBG).
The other possibility I have thought of.......... There has been a lot of talk about F1's interbreeding and later F generations reverting back to characteristics of one or the other parents. I'm thinking by the size and timing of these fingerlings they had to come from a fall spawn. If they came from a fall spawn and the fish I got from the fish farm were only 1-1.5" late last summer/fall, it would be highly more likely the spawn came from the 4 larger RES I caught and put in there. In fact I caught all 4 of these fish within a couple hours and at nearly the same spot in the pond. I toyed with the thought that a male or males had a nest there and I basically caught all 4 near the nest(s). Maybe they turned right around in their new environment, made a nest, and spawned in the sediment pond. If this were the case AND one of those 4 had some GSF genetics in it (say it was a male and the other three were RES females - wish I was better at telling what was what), then some of the recessive GSF genes might be exhibited in the offspring. I know I have had some hybrids about the same size also. The GSF genes were evident in their markings but they definitely had a smaller mouth. All this is just hypothetical speculation. Or a band of mean raccoons could have carried a bunch of GSF from the creek that is only about 100' away and placed them there there in the sediment pond just to spite me............. who knows?
No way for the water to get from the creek to the pond, by the way. Already thought of that. But a source of GSF contamination is definitely nearby. But something/someone would definitely have to walk them up the bank. No way for them to swim.
In several studies stating the % of male and female offspring between lepomis crosses significant differences were noted wrt GSF crosses. The authors went back and looked at the data and their best explanation was that GSF populations were tainted with other lepomis genes (very hard to find 100% pure GSF stock. If those guys (professional fisheries scientists) made the mistake then what should we expect.
My guess is that is a cross with a high % GSF. I assume the fin margins were white. See this thread which shows pics and explains how to look at gill rakers.
GSF Mouth and snout: Mouth Terminal, large and oblique, with pads of small teeth on the jaws. No barbels. Body patterning, color, and scales: Back dark brown, olive, or green, sides yellow-green or blue-green, belly tan or yellow. Sides either with a more-or-less solid color, faint dark blotches or mottling, irregular faint light blue or yellowish SPOTS, and/or diffuse dark vertical bars. Sometimes 3-5 bluish lines radiating backward from underneath the eye; opercular flap dark with a light margin. Dorsal, caudal, and to a lesser extent anal fins usually darkly pigmented with faint dark blotches or light dark spots and often a light yellow/cream margin; pelvic and pectoral fins lightly pigmented to dusky. 44-51 ctenoid lateral scales. Body shape and size: Body laterally compressed and deep, somewhat elongated; oval in cross section. Typically 75-150 mm (3-6 in) TL; maximum in Wisconsin about 250 mm (10 in).
Tail, dorsal and other fins: Slightly Forked or round tail. Dorsal fin with 2 lobes, broadly joined by a membrane and appearing as one fin, the first with 9-11 spines and the second with 10-12 rays. Pelvic fins thoracic. Adipose fin absent. Anal fin with 3 spines and 9-10 rays.
GSF There are 9-12 short and thick primary gill rakers on the 1st arch.
BG BG There are 13-16 moderately long primary gill rakers on the 1st arch.
HBG Hybrid of green sunfish X bluegill: Notice intermediate appearance of gill rakers
Why is it I always think of this stuff AFTER I throw the fish back in the water????
I did notice that the fish in the picture had very white fin tips and belly. That kind of struck me as being different than the the GSF that come out of my old pond (which would have been GSF from local sources likely in the pond for many, many years). But lo and behold, I went back and looked at some of my other pictures and there were white fin tips in some of those fish too.
I'm going out fishing and see if I can catch that little bugger again. Funny, last night I either caught it twice, or caught another fish that looked almost identical within a few minutes apart. Only GSF looking fish I have caught there.
Why is it I always think of this stuff AFTER I throw the fish back in the water????
I did notice that the fish in the picture had very white fin tips and belly. That kind of struck me as being different than the the GSF that come out of my old pond (which would have been GSF from local sources likely in the pond for many, many years). But lo and behold, I went back and looked at some of my other pictures and there were white fin tips in some of those fish too.
I'm going out fishing and see if I can catch that little bugger again. Funny, last night I either caught it twice, or caught another fish that looked almost identical within a few minutes apart. Only GSF looking fish I have caught there.
Thanks for the links.
If a muskie is the fish of 10,000 casts, then the GSF is the fish of 10 seconds of casting. I'm betting it was a different fish.
That gill raker thing is a complete dilemma to me . Check out the descriptions..."short and thick", and "moderately long" Well that certainly appears highly objective. An actual measurement would be helpful.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
Snrub - next one you catch measure the mouth gape of horizontal and vertical axis. One thing I am exploring is using the mouth gape to distinguish GSF from other species and hybrids. The GSF of any specific body length should have the largest gape horizontal and vertical compared to pure BG, RES, and the hybrids. I have a pretty good list of mouth measurements for GSF.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 08/06/1509:17 PM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
Some more catches out of the main 3 acre pond. Pictures of the first fish suck but the others are decent.
Fish one = 6 1/4", M gape 7/8", 9 dorsal spines, 3 anal spines. Hard to count the first gill raker because there appear to be bumps at one end that I'm not sure if I should count or now. Looks like about 9 of intermediate length. Could be as many as 11 if I count the bumps. Definitely not short and wide spaced like a RES.
Fish two = 8" with 1" Mouth Gape. 10 dorsal, 3 anal, 12 long gill raker
Fish 3 = 8.5" with 1 1/16 M gape, 9 dorsal & 3 anal, 9 gill raker teeth on first gill fairly long.
Opinions on pedigree? Look green sunfishy, but if they are those 8" and 8.5" fish are on their way to being good sized GSF if they are purebreds.
Edit: I'm having a terrible time keeping from shaking while taking the pictures. It is not an attempt at cool special effects as it seems.
Also notice the difference in mouth gapes of these fish from my main pond and the gapes of the ones I listed a few posts up. Those fish are all from my old pond and are likely old school fish from a farm pond some 40 years old or older. This difference in mouth gape leads me to believe these are hybrids, although they show all the telltale signs of pure GSF.
Snrub - next one you catch measure the mouth gape of horizontal and vertical axis. One thing I am exploring is using the mouth gape to distinguish GSF from other species and hybrids. The GSF of any specific body length should have the largest gape horizontal and vertical compared to pure BG, RES, and the hybrids. I have a pretty good list of mouth measurements for GSF.
Ha! I was posting the information the same time you were making your post. Did not measure horizontal, but did vertical. Also several posts up, I list the mouth gapes of GSF from my old pond. Notice a 6" GSF fish out of my old pond has as big of mouth as the 8" fish out of my main pond. Leading me to believe they are hybrids in the main pond even though they have all the markings of GSF.
Don't know. Looked at the pics again and they sure look like GSF. Guess it does not matter.
The third fish should be able to identify if I catch it again. Notice the fin clipped of the bottom of the tail fin? I did not do it, so something must have happened to it. Be interesting to see how that fish grows and develops.
Ewest, read through all ten pages of that link you provided of an old thread and numerous side threads listed within. And a lot of pictures although some the links no longer work. After reading all that, glad we got that all figured out.
If a muskie is the fish of 10,000 casts, then the GSF is the fish of 10 seconds of casting. I'm betting it was a different fish.
That gill raker thing is a complete dilemma to me . Check out the descriptions..."short and thick", and "moderately long" Well that certainly appears highly objective. An actual measurement would be helpful.
Yes, I have seen the physical descriptions ewest has posted a few times. I read through them and they all seem highly subjective to me.
Dummy me, I caught several nice BG between the three GSF/hybrids posted. Did not even think about it till later, all I had to do was look at the gill rakers of the BG to have a direct comparison. Might not have made much difference as both the GSF and BG have similar descriptions for the gill rakers. Now a RES, they are definitely different. I surmise the difference in the short and widely spaced rakers of the RES is to allow the shells of the crunched snails to exit while retaining the meat portion. But that is just my guess. Is'nt that the purpose of the rakers? To let water pass but retain food?
Snrub Here are some mouth gape measurements for green sunfish that I have collected. There may be some variation in size based on how much one spreads open the mouth for the measurement. I open the mouth fully but do not overly stretch it. Measurements are in inches and a horizontal gape inches(mm). 8.0"= 1.29"(33mm), 7.0" =1.06"(27), 6.5"= 0.99"(25), 6.25"= 0.94"(24), 6.0"= 0.9"(23-24mm), 5.5"= 0.86"(22).
There could easily be some variation of mouth size with GSF populations in various parts of the country, however I would not expect the variation to be significant for individuals in the same species. I would expect the most of the variation to be due to different methods one uses for making the measurement. Mouth measurements closest to those above would IMO indicate the fish has a high percentage of GSF genetics.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 08/08/1509:47 AM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
I question my ability to measure the gape accurately. Been using some plastic calipers which I find much easier to use than a tape measure, but like you said, how much does one open the mouth. I try to do like you, open it to the point I think the fish could do with muscles to swallow a fish without stretching.
At any rate I guess I have joined JHAP's GSF club because have started returning to the old pond any GSF that looks good that is above 6.5" and culling everything below.
Been feeding for a couple weeks. Seeing lots of GSF as well as BG at feeding time. Caught a 7" GSF and a 4" BG in a few minutes fishing. I think the pond is turning out ok. Will know more in another month as things warm up.
snrub, I think the GSF are the most aggressive out of all the species in my pond. I catch more of them on artificial and live bait than anything else. I see more of them hitting pellets at the feeder as well. The GSF came into my pond as an invasive species (with the water) and spawned several times the first year. Despite me removing 300) of them to a neighbors pond last summer, as forage for his LMB, I still appear to have more than I realize. Between the CNBG and the GSF spawn, my LMB will have more than enough forage this spring and summer.
Yes, the GSF can be a real danger to plans for a fishery if they get established early. But I have gotten to be more like Dave Davidson in that I like them (in modest numbers ) and have even been putting a few in my main pond (where well established BG and LMB as predators will ensure the GSF will not get out of hand).
I have actually been getting some hybrid production out of my sediment pond which I am encouraging. Not sure yet if they are hybrid GSF crossed with RES or BG. I also really like HBG mixed in with my main BG population.
But then my main goal is a panfish fishery. I really don't have a desire for anything over 3-4#. So my goals will likely not be like most pond owners.
snrub, Yes, they are prolific as ever. I like them too. I may have to pull out some more of the larger sizes this spring / summer to keep them under control. I'd like to have the YOY for my LMB...I have some GSF in excess of 8". They kill the pellets and grow quickly.
Here is one of my larger ones. Caught this in the big pond where I only have a few that have been stocked in the last year or so. Forgot to get a mouth gap measurement.
snrub, That one is getting up there in size. How big do you normally let them get before removing them from your BOW? What's the record size (in length) that you have grown up to this point?
Well I put that one back and it is the biggest to date. Ponds are only about 3 years old.
In the old pond I cull anything under 6" and keep the bigger ones. I just started putting some in the big pond so leaving all of them so far. Probably only 50 total in that 3 acre pond. But a bunch of them went in at 3" so some could have been eaten also.
The HBG is what I prefer but would like to see how big I can get a GSF.
I had a couple went right at 8" last year...they came in with the water in the summer of 2014, so I don't really know what size they were originally. I pulled 300 out last summer to help out a neighbor to restart a forage base for his LMB and to give my CNBG and RES a chance. It seems like everyone that I catch from 3 1/2" to 8" are butterball fat (gravid). I never see any under 3 1/2"....hopefully the Legs (LMB) are taking care of those. I've read where they can get upwards of 2 lbs...would be interesting to see. I catch them on artificial jigs frequently.
Just curious on if these look like 100% greenies. First two pictures the fish came in just shy of 11" and 1.6lb. The second fish was not weighed but was 9".
I would say all three hybrids, with the last one being less certain.
I don't see the bright green bars that my GSF have, but that could be the picture. If you look back at my picture of the GSF the picture does not show them very well either, but in person they were very visible.
On the third one look at the shape. Notice the hump behind the head? Now look at my picture. A straight arc from the top of the mouth, with no hump. Of course this could be just because of a size difference. I think the way the third fish is being held makes it appear to have a large mouth. But it does not look large enough for a GSF. Having said that, I look back at my fish and it also does not look like the mouth is terribly big, but in person it was much more obvious (the mouth would have opened much wider.
GSF are noticeably wider in body than BG. Can't tell this feature in the picture.
It is a lot easier to ID in person holding the fish than looking at pictures.
So for me it is hard to say for sure, but my best guess is the third fish is also a hybrid.
Edit: I was typing when Shorty posted his opinion. He has seen a lot more fish than I have, and I think he has it right.
Thanks I was leaning toward hybrid on the first, but the second I was unsure. That pond was stocked with some CNBG last spring so now it`s got a muddle of BG,CNBG,HYBRIDS, and possible some GSF.
I don't know how to be sure. What happens over several generations of GSF back breeding? I recently caught a mutt. It was about 10.5 inches and the body looked like pure BG. But, it had the green spots along the jaw area and the larger mouth. It was a magnificent fish that I immediately returned to the water. I have no idea what % GSF it was.
It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.
Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.
Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Dave it was really a BG but it knowing your fondness of GSF and not wanting to get culled it opened its mouth REAL wide so you would think it GSF and put it back in the water.
I don't know (does anyone for sure?) if the GSF in my old pond were pure, but to my knowledge the original ones that came from the puddle I left behind that turned out to be the brood stock would have been as pure as was possible. As far as I know, there were previously never any BG in that pond.
Since I have stocked BG, RES and also put some known hybrids in there, with future generations who knows. But I think the originals would have been as pure GSF as possible for this area.
There are a lot of various GSF hybrids in public waters around here. I have caught lots of different looking hybrids while fishing for BG. I think the GSF males are very aggressive nesters. Probably one out of four GSF I have caught look hybridized, mostly with longear SF, which are very colorful, as pretty as many expensive tropical fish.
The Longear are really pretty fish. According to the USGS they are native to my area also. Too bad they don't get very big.
If it ever quits raining and Cow Creek goes back down I would like to do some fishing in it. Last time I did creek fishing as recall I was in grade school. Would like to see what is actually there.
From my childhood I remember my brothers calling sunfish different names, but now I think as much as anything we were just seeing different variations from male to female and spawning season differences and giving them names. Basically we didn't know squat.
I know a lot of guys like their pure bred fish lines but I like some of the hybrids. They get big enough to be fun to catch and yet they are aggressive enough to not be too hard to catch. Had some great nephews (3-6 years old) do some fishing off the dock yesterday and they pulled several small hybrids out. If nothing else is biting, the GSF and GSF hybrids will.
I've been to Elephant Butte Reservoir. It's pretty remote, and I doubt that it gets much fishing pressure. But it was nearly 20 yr ago when I was there, and maybe things have changed.
Ok, here is one for the ID experts. I would like to hear what the pedigree is on it. I know it is a hybrid and I know it has GSF in it, but to date it is the only one I have ever seen markings exactly like it has. Came from my old pond (the pond that this thread started on).
All 4 pics same fish, just both sides and some show the fins and mouth better.
I'm no expert, but I would classify that fish as a GSF dominant HBG. BG x GSF
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
I'm no expert, but I would classify that fish as a GSF dominant HBG. BG x GSF
That is what most of my natural hybrids are and a good chance you are right. This one had a lot more colorful speckles. When I first saw it I thouht Pumkinseed cross, but that would be impossible unless some northern fish flew south for the winter and stayed.
Here is another that I think could potentially a RESxGSF cross.
Something about the yellowish mottled appearance on the cheeks (combined with the obvious GSF green bars) made me think RES cross. Doesn't show well in the picture but the border on the opercular tab has the translucent GSF look but looking at it in person I thought it has some RES appearance also. Also the way the mouth protrudes so far in front of the eye.
Dunnow. Looked inside its mouth looking for crusher teeth and still not sure what I am looking for. Appears to be 4 molar appearing bumps on the roof of its mouth but I see that in BG also. These looked like they might have been slightly larger. Wish I knew more about that. Have never been able to find pictures on the web or been around anyone who could show me what to look for.
Some nice (relative term) GSF caught in the last few days. I would like to see one of them get to 1.5#.
One looks like it was damaged by a GBH strike at an early age. Damaged the top fin area. I would have culled it but it is the largest one I have caught to date. Thought at least if I caught it again it would be an easy one to identify.
A couple were from my main pond which would have been some fingerlings I transferred there from my sediment pond. The rest are from my old pond.
Am catching about 50-50 GSF vs BG from my old pond. Some days 60-40, some days the opposite. Just depends on the day.
Those are some nice fish! I caught some longer fish today, but none had that much depth to their bodies. How much are you feeding? Mine should have plenty of tilapia and young bluegill to eat, but I'm not seeing any evidence of that... Maybe I should wait until right after the fall tilapia kill to catch any fat ones?
Thanks. They have grown really well the first three years but I think they are leveling off. Either that or I just can not catch many of the original stockers to get a handle of how they have done.
I think I am getting heavy forage and light predators and with too many mouths to feed the BG growth is suffering. I'm afraid I will end up with a trophy bass pond when I was shooting for a pan fish pond.
Thanks. They have grown really well the first three years but I think they are leveling off. Either that or I just can not catch many of the original stockers to get a handle of how they have done.
I think I am getting heavy forage and light predators and with too many mouths to feed the BG growth is suffering. I'm afraid I will end up with a trophy bass pond when I was shooting for a pan fish pond.
Some probably would not consider that a problem.
It's all about mouths to feed. If you want a trophy panfish pond, then you have to reduce the quantity of small panfish mouths. 125-150 LMB per acre no larger then 14" will accomplish that for you.
One from last night out of the main pond. This would have likely been a fingerling that came from my sediment pond that I transferred over. I can not be certain it is a pure GSF but it looks to be mostly so. About 8".
Here is another one from last night. How big you recon I can get these to grow? They do like their feed.
This one is from the main pond. I probably catch 30 or more BG to one of these GSF. If I fish really near shore sometimes can catch a small GSF, but mostly BG. Once in a while one of my CNBG.
Just had a thought. Maybe I am catching the same one over and over.
Caught one similar in size the other night. You think you've got a monster on when they get about 6-7" and up. The pic is not that good but will try to get it uploaded. I'm wondering the same thing...if the would get taller like a BG or BCP they would probably make some really nice fillets!
They will not get tall like a BG, but they get thick. If you look at the width of them compared to BG they are much wider. They are really shaped more like a LMB than a BG.
Isn't it true that the GSF spawn once a year?? If so is this a spring thing or what? The reason I ask is I just had another spawn a few weeks ago and now I have little guys EVERYWHERE. Would they have just spawned? I assume their beds look very similar to BG beds? I hope it was another BG spawn. I have had couple since the beginning of July.
Similarity Index Bass, Rock Moderately similar Bluegill Small juveniles very similar, adults moderately similar Pumpkinseed Small juveniles very similar, adults moderately similar Sunfish, Green N/A Sunfish, Longear Small juveniles very similar, adults moderately similar Sunfish, Orangespotted Small juveniles very similar, adults moderately similar Warmouth Small juveniles very similar, adults moderately similar
Green Sunfish by WiscFish
Body Mouth and snout: Mouth Terminal, large and oblique, with pads of small teeth on the jaws. No barbels. Body patterning, color, and scales: Back dark brown, olive, or green, sides yellow-green or blue-green, belly tan or yellow. Sides either with a more-or-less solid color, faint dark blotches or mottling, irregular faint light blue or yellowish SPOTS, and/or diffuse dark vertical bars. Sometimes 3-5 bluish lines radiating backward from underneath the eye; opercular flap dark with a light margin. Dorsal, caudal, and to a lesser extent anal fins usually darkly pigmented with faint dark blotches or light dark spots and often a light yellow/cream margin; pelvic and pectoral fins lightly pigmented to dusky. 44-51 ctenoid lateral scales. Body shape and size: Body laterally compressed and deep, somewhat elongated; oval in cross section. Typically 75-150 mm (3-6 in) TL; maximum in Wisconsin about 250 mm (10 in). Fins Tail, dorsal and other fins: Slightly Forked or round tail. Dorsal fin with 2 lobes, broadly joined by a membrane and appearing as one fin, the first with 9-11 spines and the second with 10-12 rays. Pelvic fins thoracic. Adipose fin absent. Anal fin with 3 spines and 9-10 rays.
EFISH GSF Reproductive Habits: · Mature at age 1 or 3 · Spawning occurs late May through July · Males build nests around vegetation · Fecundity is 2,000-10,000 eggs per female per year · Hybridizes with many other sunfish species
Peachgrower this is what I remember from reading, but I could be mistaken. Experts please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
LMB spawn earliest. RES and BG are next as water temperature rises and often overlap. GSF come slightly later than the first BG spawn (spawn in a little warmer water). GSF are generally believed to spawn once, but it is also possible for late maturing individuals to spawn for the first time later in the season as they reach sexual maturity. So as I recall it is possible to see GSF spawn later, but it is not their main spawning season.
So from my reading (not experience) it is likely BG or RES but it would not be impossible for it to be GSF.
I have personally seen RES on shallow beds this time of year.
Thanks guys! That does shed some light. I see what you mean about the late maturing. I have caught one BG so far so thats what worries me. Other than that all GSF. I have seen three good spawns since the July. I stocked the BG on July 8. Hope thats what I have been seeing. I know patience comes in with control of the GSF....MAN patience is HARD...I don't know how you guys do it! I guess for now I will grow some really nice GSF and hope to have some BG/RES growing at the same time.
Here is another question for you GSF people. When they feed, do you see a difference in the way they attack the feed compared to BG? I feel like I can see a difference. The reason I say this is where "I believe" most of the BG are, I see a small swirl where they hit. It doesn't matter the amount of feed, time when I feed, or anything. They make a quiet swirl and small chirp when they hit the feed. Now everywhere else, where I know GSF are and I catch alot of then, the feeding is different. There is a splash and you can see the fish hit, then splash slightly sideways. It doesn't matter if the feed is right up on the shore where the little ones are or out further. They hit the same way. Now, that being said, am I crazy or has anyone else seen this? Seems the GSF attack the feed (optimal BG) where as the BG hit it but do not splash. I don't really have a way to prove this other than the BG I have caught are all from the shallow cove...but I have caught a few GSF there too...but not nearly as many as down the way in the shallows.
Thanks again guys!!
ewest...can you explain the similarity index? Is this spawning times or what?
GSF are very aggressive feeders and what I have found is even a 3-4" GSF can take a pellet because of its mouth size where it takes a larger BG for the same size pellet. One of the things I noticed in my old pond when I realized I had a large population of smaller GSF was the way the hit pellets on the surface.
But you may find that later your BG can become just as aggressive. I think it has to do with competition. If your BG are schooling together and their numbers are relatively low they may not feel the need to compete for the available feed. At some point in time that could change and BG can definitely become very aggressive feeders when they choose to be.
Right now I have an abundance of BG in my main pond and I feed the perimeter of the pond daily. They tear into the feed like piranhas. They literally make the water boil in certain areas of the pond. But I think it is because there more fish than the amount of feed I'm feeding will satisfy. So they get in there and really compete.
I probably should be feeding more to keep them growing well but they are about to break the bank the way it is. I'm feeding about 12# per day for 4 acres of water. That is almost a 50# bag every 4 days. No way I can justify spending that much money on feed except that I enjoy doing it.
You may see a change in your BG behavior some day.
I definitely see a difference in green sunfish and bluegill strikes when feeding pellets. Since there are more GSF able to eat pellets in the pond than BG, I'm assuming that they would have the same competitive nature as BG when their numbers are large enough. Wouldn't it stand to reason that the aggressive nature of the green sunfish be compounded by competition?
If this is true, could green sunfish actually grow faster when a higher percentage of them make up the pond?
Conner I would agree with that...it makes sense. Where I know GSF are the feed does not last long. Where I think the BG are they are almost lazy. I think like snrub said as they grow they'll become more competitive. The GSF are very abundant and EVERY one I catch has had a fat belly. Never cut one open but I'm sure it is optimal! lol
In so far as this thread concerns the Similarity index is in telling one from the other as juveniles by sight (not checking all morphology. i.e. its hard to tell them apart.
For me anything under a couple inches is very hard. Over two inches and the GSF shape and mouth size and green cheek bars start making them easier to tell. With RES they have to get up to about 3" before it starts become evident for me. At least evident enough I would feel safe stocking them in a specific pond for a specific species.
Add in hybridization and it gets even more tricky.
Even at those sizes I would probably get some wrong.
Throw in a species I'm not expecting to see in the pond (like Rock Bass, crappie, etc.) and then all bets are off.
Edit: Adding a link here to a thread about feeding GSF so I can find it later. What to feed GSF
For all you GSF lovers out there (all two of you) here are a few pictures of some I caught today out of my main pond.
At the time of my fish kill in my sediment pond, I transferred thousands of small fingerling fish to my main pond before they died in the sediment pond. Among the CNBG and RES fingerlings were also quite a few GSF fingerlings. They have grown really well as you can see in the pictures, and all of these went to the holding pen, to be invited to supper, because I am catching more of them than I would like to see. If my LMB were recruiting well I would not worry about it. But since I lack a population of small LMB I do not want the GSF to get carried away in this pond.
The third fish I question if it is pure GSF or not. When I caught it I called it a hybrid. But seeing it in the picture it looks awfully green sunfishy. Caught them all within a few minutes, in the same area, in 7-8' deep water off the bottom. I guess I found the GSF honey hole. A year ago I was returning the few over 8" GSF I caught to maybe grow a few trophy size GSF. But I am catching too many, so these will find their way to the cleaning station.
If I knew how to sex the GSF, I could return only the males. As I understand it there is a lot less likelihood of a BG female laying eggs in a GSF male nest. The more normal cross in nature is a BG male and a GSF female. But I do not know what to look for in a GSF like I do in a BG. Any tips?
I agree with your assessment of the third photo. Looks like some BG in there to me also.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
Thanks Jim. This pond fish stuff is pretty new to me. Only been messing with pond fish for less than 5 years, although I have been diving in the ocean and observing those fish for 40 years (started lake diving in 1968). For the last five years I have averaged right around 200 dives a year with lesser amounts going back in time when I actually had to work to make a living. So I spend a lot of time observing fish behavior, just not pond fish.
Thanks sprkplug for the confirmation. It is one of those things that when I caught it and snapped the picture I immediately called it HBG. Then I get to looking at the picture later that night and I question. A picture just does not have the three dimensional perspective as having a fish in your hands. I often don't see features stand out in pictures that I observe when I have the fish in hand.
IMO there is not much or a very few BG influence (genes) in the fish of the last picture that is a little out of focus. There is a noticeable genetic variation of each species if one looks closely at the individuals. Notice the length of the pectoral fin. It extends to the same length as the pelvic fin. As BG influence increases in hybrids the pectoral fin elongates. Pectoral fin of pure strain BG goes back to the origin of the anal fin. Another feature of the fish in the pictures is the length of the mouth. Ideally in pure green sunfish the posterior end of the upper jaw should extend well beyond the front of the eye, usually to the pupil.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
I agree with Bill Cody. Third fish looks female. Mouth / gape can very with Green Sunfish as a function of what the fish consumes as prey. Ewest can dig up peer reviewed paper to support that.
Care must be taken not to cherry pick fish for pictures. Overwhelming majority pictures of single sunfish I see posted appear to be male. We tend to use males more than females which can result in characterizing females being less reliable.
Aquaculture Cooperative Research / Extension Lincoln University of Missouri
I have some good info on lepomis plasticity which can result in significant differences in populations. Most is on BG and PS. Not a lot of published info on RES and GSF. Most on GSF is on hybridization.
Interesting. I filleted it today and one of the other GSF (wife got the second GSF) and I again thought it was a hybrid. But if it was a female and the other two males, that could have been what was throwing me off. At any rate, even if it was a hybrid, it surely was close enough to GSF to call it one.
I'll go with GSF then. Not sure how much more fishing I will do in the next couple weeks, but if I catch some more nice size GSF will post them.
An interesting tidbit of information. Kansas state record for both BG and GSF is 2# 5 oz. with HBG at 2# 10 oz. A 2# GSF would be a big GSF. Maybe these dudes get bigger than we normally associate them? Maybe they are usually just over populated and stunted populations? Or do you recon maybe someone mis-identified a 2# 5 oz HBG and called it a GSF?
An old professor used to talk about a crappie stock in Crab Orchard Lake of southern Illinois that could split into two feeding guilds. One that grew fast switched to fish while a slower growing morph stayed on zooplankton. Looking at lots of crappie and even LMB suggests to me that the capacity for phenotypic plasticity is relatively widespread.
Somewhere I have seen where Green Sunfish in the absence of Bluegill becomes more planktivorous while in the absence of LMB it becomes more bass like.
The plasticity can involve morphology and / or behavior.
Aquaculture Cooperative Research / Extension Lincoln University of Missouri
Now that article reminds me of what I see in RES. When I look at southern RES like from ewest area their snout reminds me of a hog snout. Elongated. Yet most of the RES of mine and the ones I see from Nebraska have faces more like BG without the elongated snout.
So that short article you linked to explains some things to me about why RES from areas away from me have a different look.
Redear I snorkeled with in southern streams appear to eat a lot of hard-shelled mollusces. Those in northern lakes (ancestors came via hatcheries from same southern streams) are more Bluegill like and typically do not have anything tougher than Rams Horn Snails to eat seasonally. It is my guess that my location is north of where Redear would occur naturally without periodic infusions from stocked reservoirs.
Aquaculture Cooperative Research / Extension Lincoln University of Missouri
Redear I snorkeled with in southern streams appear to eat a lot of hard-shelled mollusces. Those in northern lakes (ancestors came via hatcheries from same southern streams) are more Bluegill like and typically do not have anything tougher than Rams Horn Snails to eat seasonally. It is my guess that my location is north of where Redear would occur naturally without periodic infusions from stocked reservoirs.
I think Shorty described some pretty large amounts of winter kill in his RES last year in Nebraska. So cold water stress would go along with that argument for need of periodic infusions. With just one year in say ten where a bad winter would knock populations back, it could be hard for the RES to continue to compete and prosper along side other fish species that were better adapted to their local environment.
I know I put 175 RES and 100 CNBG in my sediment pond and based on the fingerlings I got out of it I could have put 25 CNBG and still had more BG recruitment than I did RES.
I think RES can handle the cold relatively well. The problem is when they get squeezed out by other sunfishes when forage base does not offer something RES can go after when competition with other species gets seasonally intense like in the summer. You do not have to starve to be wiped out, rather you have reduced fitness that causes population to decline over time. Way up north you have Pumpkinssed that overlap quite a bit and likely do have a leg up when it comes to thermal adaptions.
When I go sampling streams attached to reservoirs supporting strong populations of RES, the RES tend to be most abundant in YOY as part of cohorts produced earlier in the breeding season like in late April through May. The June and into early July are poorly represented. I have not seen literature that parses out whether nutritional stressed adults breeding or reduced competitiveness of early life-stage RES in face of BG is the cause for this. Either way, most of the later RES spawning effort up here seems to be futile. Some years late season RES spawning effort does pay off.
Aquaculture Cooperative Research / Extension Lincoln University of Missouri
I think Shorty described some pretty large amounts of winter kill in his RES last year in Nebraska.
My winter kill happened at ice out after a very warm week in February that rapidly took 8-9" ice off the pond and likely mixed the water column in my 1/4 acre, I think the entire water column was super cooled at ice out. If I recall correctly Condello once hypothesized that the lethal water temperature for RES was right around 39 degrees. 39 degrees might be the point where the fish oils in RES gel, solidify, and they can no longer move and breath, they simply suffocate. I picked up 128 floaters in the 5 weeks after ice out last spring, most were between 5" and 8", I am pretty sure there were a bunch that never floated.
Some RES can handle temperatures down to around 36 F for at least a week or two. This based on daily temperature checks at deepest part of ponds that are at most 5' deep. Losses occurring during that interval appear more related to bacterial / fungal infections that may be secondary to cold stress. Some ponds not touched while others took a heavy hit.
Aquaculture Cooperative Research / Extension Lincoln University of Missouri
Jim, my thoughts are that RES might winter kill in much the same manner that gizzard shad do, it's the sudden drop in water temperature, usually 5 degrees or more dropping temps below 39 degrees that gets them. They simply can't acclimate to the temperature change quick enough and the fish oils start to solidify.
Death of fish when oxygen is depleted and concentrations of carbon
dioxide build up beneath snow-covered ice is a common phenomenon
in the North Central States (Greenbank, 1945; Bennett, 1948b; Cooper
and Washburn, 1949). For the Marion County farm ponds information
on .occurrence of winterkill has been gathered from two sources: from
farmers and others who observed numbers of dead fish in ponds following
the breakup of ice, and from pond histories that indicate a sudden mass
disappearance of bass, of .bluegills, or of both. While in many cases there
is no evidence as to the time of year when such fish disappeared, heavy
mortality during the summer was observed by *he pond owners only once
(Pond 16) while winterkill was observed frequently. The chances of mass
mortality of fis•h being unobserved are probably greater in the win,ter than
the summer.
It appears that fish populations in 31 of the ponds suffered winterkill
(Table 6). In 15 ponds bass were eliminated but some bluegills survived;
in two ponds the reverse was true, with bluegills winterkilled while some
bass survived. The differential in mortality between these two species may
represent a difference in tolerance to low oxygen levels (though Cooper
and Washrburn, 1949, found none), but more likely it may represent
a difference in location within the pond during wintertime and ability
of some individuals to ioca•te and utilize pockets of water containing suf-
ficient oxygen for survival.
Complete kills of both bass and bluegills occurred in 18 ponds. Thirteen
of the 18 ponds also contained bullheads, and these always survived in
some numbers.
Some ponds winterkill repeatedly, as is shown by the frequency of some
pond numbers in Table 6.
T^BLE &--Known or suspected winterkills of fish in Iowa farm fish ponds
Species eliminated by kill Pond numbers
Bass, but not bluegills ..........................
3, 19, 19, 20, 24, 24, 29, 30, 32,
32, 35, 37, 40, 47, 48, 49, 49, 49,
50, 59
Bluegills, but not bass ..........................
3, 27
Bass and bluegills ...............................
9, 10, 11, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 20,
23, 27, 31, 35, 36, 39, 40, 41, 47,
49, 55, 56
Some bass and some bluegills ...................
94, 15, 25, 37, 45
Winterkill is believed to be a major factor in the lack of population
balance and success of Iowa ponds. The population remaining after an
incomplete kill is often very different than that presen.t before, and the
change is usually unfavorable for .angling (Bennett, 1948a). Of the ponds
which winterkilled, one-half had Ibeen listed as muddy with colloidal clay,
and one-third were known to have had low water levels going into the
winter season.
Data sources used for analysis of geographic variations in acute temperature preferences of fishes.
Redear sunfish, Lepomis microlophm'
Hill et al. (1975) Oklahoma 16.0-26.0
Still others, particularly the centrarchids, showed
occasional low thermal responsiveness. Fishes
continued to seek increased temperatures until
they succumbed due to physiological inability
to adjust to a rapid increase in temperature in
a steep gradient.
When raising hybrid striped bass in cages, several producers have reported sudden losses of hybrids when the water temperature rapidly decreased by several degrees in a relatively short period of time (Valenti 1989; A. M. Kelly and C. C. Kohler, personal observation). The rapid onset of cold temperatures has been reported as the cause of death in several species of fish (Verril 1901; Storey 1937; Galloway 1941; Gunther 1941; Ash et al. 1974; Coutant 1977; Mitchell 1990). It is believed that the lipid composition in the fish muscle plays a vital role in the ability of fish to adapt from one temperature to another (Hazel 1984; Greene and Selivonchick 1987; Henderson and Tocher 1987). Phospholipids are the class of lipids in which the most obvious changes occur. As environmental temperatures decrease, the invariable response is an increase in fatty acid unsaturation (Johnston and Roots 1964; Caldwell and Vernberg 1970; Hazel 1979; Cossins and Prosser 1982). Conversely, as ambient temperatures increase, phospholipid saturation must also increase to avoid excess fluidity. The dynamics of lipid composition of cells occurs in order to maintain a constant fluid matrix for enzymes associated with membranes (Greene and Selivonchick 1990). Different species of fish differ in their patterns of fat deposition and mobilization, which in turn affects the temperature range in which the species can grow and survive. For example, the Nile tilapia Oreochromis niloticus does not store excess lipids in the musculature but rather relies on visceral deposits that it is incapable of mobilizing at low temperatures, which results in high mortalities between 8°C and 6.5°C (Satoh et al. 1984). Viola et al. (1988) demonstrated that the common carp Cyprinus carpio, which is capable of mobilizing lipids from muscular and visceral deposits, is able to survive to 4.5°C under the same conditions.
The amount of unsaturated fatty acids in the muscle is believed to affect a fish's ability to tolerate lower temperatures (Hoar and Dorchester 1949; Hoar and Cottle 1952a, 1952b). In general, the tissue temperature of fish is within 1°C of the ambient water temperature (Carey et al. 1971; Reynolds et al. 1976). Physiologically, fish are affected by variations in water temperature in two ways (Hochachka and Somero 1984). First, temperature determines the rate of chemical reactions, and secondly, temperature dictates the point of equilibrium between the formation and disruption of the macromolecular structures in biological membranes. Structural flexibility, therefore, is a requirement for integrity of biological membranes (Hazel 1993). Cold temperatures constrain this flexibility and, as a result, stabilize less active conformations. The rate of increase in the ability of fish to tolerate higher temperatures usually requires less than 24 h at temperatures above 20°C, whereas the gain in resistance to lower temperatures is a much slower process, requiring up to 20 d in some species (Doudoroff 1942; Brett 1944). The rate of resistance to lower temperatures is governed in part by the rate of metabolism, which is depressed at lower environmental temperatures. The simulated cold front in this study resulted in higher mortalities Diets influence the fatty acid composition in several species of fish (Henderson and Tocher 1987; Lovell 1989; Seo et al. 1994), and the ability of a fish to alter its lipid composition when placed in colder water is one factor that determines survival. For example, summer harvest syndrome is an anomaly seen in goldfish Carassius auratus when they are harvested in the summer and placed in tanks containing water that is colder than the pond water (Mitchell 1990). The death of these fish is thought to be a result of the fat that the goldfish consume or produce (Mitchell 1990). Goldfish with high concentrations of saturated body fat are less tolerant of temperature change than fish with high concentrations of unsaturated body fat. Similarly, rainbow trout Oncorhynhcus mykiss that have been fed diets high in saturated fats stiffen and die when placed in cold water (Mitchell 1990). In these fish, the fat apparently hardens in the colder water, causing the fat-impregnated muscles to stiffen and the fish to become exhausted and lose movement.
Although it has been hypothesized that temperature is closely linked to membrane composition, relatively few studies have been conducted to determine if a correlation exists between lipid composition and cold tolerance. This study was designed to determine the effect of a sudden temperature change (a simulated cold front) on striped bass, white bass, and their hybrids fed either a natural or prepared diet, as well as to determine their lower incipient lethal temperature. The association of fatty acid composition and unsaturated: saturated fatty acid ratios in these fish were examined with respect to their tolerance to cold.
We demonstrated that diet-induced muscle fatty acid composition directly affects cold tolerance of striped bass, white bass, and their hybrids. Fish fed fathead minnows had fatty acid ratios 10–25% higher than fish fed a prepared diet. When subjected to a simulated cold front, all groups of fish fed the prepared diet suffered high mortality (50–90%) whereas the groups fed the natural diet experienced zero mortalities. The LILT was also higher for fish fed the prepared diet.
Fish deaths due to cold temperatures have frequently been reported. It is generally believed that deaths arise from the rapidity of dropping temperatures whereby the fish are unable to acclimate to the lower temperature despite being within their biokinetic range. It is consequently critical especially in autumn to feed fish of the genus Morone, and possibly other genera, a diet that is relatively low in saturated fats when they are confined to surface waters in cages or pens.
Not published, but will put it out there. I maintained a group of 800 yoy LMB that were trained to eat pellet. Grading employed later to ensure uniformity of size and stocking density. After feed training, they were split into three groups. Fish were given pelvic fin clips to ID later. Then fish were then treated with one of three feeding regimens while maintained at 25 C for 28 days. Control group was not fed and lost a good amount of weight. Fish lipid group was fed a basal diet with supplemental menhaden fish oil for a total lipid content of approximately 12%. A tallow lipid group has same basal diet except beef tallow was used as the lipid source so diet again had same total lipid level. Fish in second two groups doubled in weight during that interval. Then groups were combined in replicated units where each had 30 fish from each group in 200-gallon tanks for a simulated fall-winter-spring cycle. There were four such tanks each with a biofilter and chiller and a light on a timer. Tanks were then chilled at 5 degree Celsius increments with chilling events occurring within a day on 28-intervals. After months temperature was down in the 4 - 5 Celsius range which was maintained for 2 months. Then temperature was brought up in the reverse of the temperature reduction. Mortalities of significance did not occur until the temperate started coming back up and it was restricted to the control group. Mortalities appeared to be more closely tied to energy reserve quantity rather than fatty acid profile.
I did this in same lab as Kelly and Kohler looking to see if I could replicate and expand upon there findings. My emphasis was on large mouth bass which were a hot topic at the time.
Working with sunfishes still, often in production ponds over winter, there have been times where monitoring fish under ice was important. Temperature, dissolved oxygen, total ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, harness and alkalinity were all followed. Temp and DO daily while others weekly. When high death rates occurred, is was seldom related to water quality.
I have also seen where Bluegill grown on a natural forage did better under ice than pellet fed. Other things varied with dietary treatment so real cause not known.
Two lines of evidence indicate something else is at play. As a result, some assumptions whether published or not, are in the realm of dogma that are preventing a better understanding of the problem. Nutrition and temperature interactions very likely involved, as is something else that I think involves a pathogen(s).
Winter mortality is of concern to me even now. Harsh winters can cause unsustainable losses for producers.
This is an observation I had, no science behind it. I had a tank with 20 green sun fish in it for cat fish bait. Over winter it froze solid, you could see the sun fish laying flat on bottom. Thought they all died, but in spring over half were still alive. If you have a pond that tends to winter freeze. I would put in a cross of some sort with the Green sunfish. The fish were not fed and were in a large stock tank with some green algae growing in it.
Production Methods for Food-Sized Bluegills CHARLES E. HICKS MARK R. ELLERSIECK CINDY J. BORGWORDT North American Journal of Aquaculture 71:52–58, 2009 _ Copyright by the American Fisheries Society 2009
TABLE 4.—Summary of initial and final weights, overall weight gain, duration of growth measurement, daily growth rate,specific growth rate (SGR), and feed conversion ratio (FCR) measured during various growth trials with bluegills (BG),commercial hybrid bluegills (HBG; bluegill 3 green sunfish Lepomis cyanellus), and Georgia Giant hybrids (GG; bluegill 3green sunfish; proprietary strain produced by Ken’s Fish Farm, Alapaha, Georgia).
ewest - what does this chart really show? The duration of each of those studies was different so how can they be compared effectively to provide good information? Does the SGR (specific growth rate) adjust for differences in study duration and variation of feeding methods?
Evidently the researchers thought and concluded the georgia giants were created be crossing BG and GSF.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/28/1709:18 AM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
Bill it is a compilation of prior studies and the results of this study (see tank phase and pond phase)on BG/HBG/GG growth. Rather than look for results of the GG studies as requested I posted this which shows all the applicable fish strains (BG,HBG and GG). I will double check but I don't think they did genetic testing on GG so that comment is either an error or reflects what they were told by others (hatchery or prior researchers in Stienfelt study or possibly a prior Wang study).
My point for posting this is to show that hybrid/non-hybrid growth is an "it depends" conclusion. Much more than just genetics. The best IMO way to look at the chart is to look at Growth rate per day and SGR. To me there is very little difference over time in HBG, GG and Male BG potential. Just as professor Neal said at the PB conf. the great bulk of performance (growth/size etc) is due to conditions other than genetics like food , water quality , proper environment etc. with genetics making up the upper 10% of the equation. Those are my recollection of his comments not his words. There are , obviously other reasons to use/enjoy HBG like limited reproduction and aggressiveness but IMO BG/CNBG/HBG and GG all grow about the same when compared as apples to apples.
I am not going to redo the GG thread as it serves no purpose to me. I suggest if one is interested then go read the prior threads including the ones of all the participants from before. I think there is enough in those threads to inform any potential users of the possible risks and rewards.
I just signed up for the forum and came across this post. Some quick background on me, I'm 34, grew up obsessed with fishing, and was fortunate that both neighborhoods I lived in until heading out to college had large numbers of green sunfish. The one I lived next to from 8 to 18 had nothing but green sunfish and white suckers in it when it was originally built. So for a good 5 years 98% of fish I caught were nothing but green sunfish. They apparently were living in the small creek that existed prior to the water retention pond being constructed.
The last four years I was fishing regularly bluegills were stocked into our previously GSF only pond. In that time I caught only one naturally occuring hybrid out of literally thousands and I was pretty excited to catch something I viewed as exotic.
Bowhunting took a priority when I got my driver's license as the fishing in my part of Iowa was not the best at that time so up until this June I was out of the fishing world.
Anyway when I started fishing again this year one of my goals was to catch as many of the Iowa species as I possibly could and I included the HBG in my checklist. I eventually found a pond that had been stocked with a large # of HBG (it also produced a 9 inch BG which was rather cool by itself!).
Anyway this HBG I caught was 9.5 inches. I also included a picture of the IGFA World Record GSH which was 2-2. I personally am fond of the GSH because I have caught more of them in my lifetime than anything else and it seems like the one species Iowa has a chance to score a world record. Iowa has a state record of 2-1 so it seems obtainable....
Until I saw your post about the 2-5 kansas state record! Kind of an interesting record keeping discrepancy it seems!
Anyway I can say with a good degree of certainty that the three fish you have pictured are all pure GSF as I have seen a million of them. Granted I'm still very much learning but it is something I have a large amount of field experience with.
I will definitely be interested to hear what your GSF growth rates are like as I'm thinking about trying to grow a world record in one of my family ponds if you don't beat me to it!
Walter, welcome to the Pond Boss forum. I'll be first to thank you for your first post, and to say you did more than "alright" with it!
I love it! Another GSF aficionado in our midst. I too, grew up appreciating the classy GSF, and I'm twice your age. Those quality fish have staying power. LOL
My pond has a couple of lunker greenies. One was 11" last time I caught him. Colorado state record is not much bigger. If he'll eat several more fingerling LMB this next summer, he'll match the state record.
Another gsf fan here. I caught a monster out of my pond. How big? Don’t know. All I could think of was to get it back into the water. Had to go 11 inches to 12 inches with a body to match. I have some questio about what % gsf and bg it was. It had to have been mostly bg but the gsf genes were obvious.
It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.
Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.
Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Thanks guys! I feel like if the GSF were to disappear tomorrow many more people would be lamenting their loss! They're a fun little fish for kids to catch.
Interestingly enough Iowa does have a very small warmouth population but for whatever reason they aren't nearly as widespread as GSF. Does anyone know if they can make a viable hybrid? Now that would be cool!
Jim are you saying Triploids with mother as GSF also very viable and appear sterile in all combinations? Just being clear that you aren't saying all GSF hybrids appear sterile.
Control Allodiploid GSF(female) x WM(male) Sterile sex ratio about 50:50
Pressure Shocked Allotriploid GSF(female)^2 x WM(male) Sterile
Several hybrids I have made with WM have major viability issues. GSF have not such problems and often show some level of fertility, in at least one sex. WM and GSF not close kin. GSF more closely related to other Lepomis than WM. WM in my opinion should not be in Lepomis.
Aquaculture Cooperative Research / Extension Lincoln University of Missouri
I would assume they are the same as WM(female) x NBG(male). Viability in that direction would be good. Fertility of F1's would be zero as far as I have seen, at least when bred back to other F1's. Growth not stellar.
Aquaculture Cooperative Research / Extension Lincoln University of Missouri
I agree. Childers found that Bluegill-m X Warmouth-f at 69% male offspring have a skewed sex ration (not as much as HBG). The info I have see indicates that a high % of BG X WM crosses in both directions hatch.
I have crossed WM with GSF, NBG, RE and Redspotted Sunfish. F1's of the first three failed to produce fry even when ponds were stocked only with them for two growing season. I could sex fish, but could not get gametes to express using socially acceptable degrees of stripping pressure.
I am confident of my ability to keep other species / crosses out and ponds were 1/10 acre and otherwise suitable for breeding sunfishes.
Aquaculture Cooperative Research / Extension Lincoln University of Missouri
fertility of the CNBG X WM is zero, totally infertile? either direction cross?
No I think the cross is just as viable as a BG X WM cross. It should have a skewed sex ration and F-2 are an big unknown but likely to have similar results as HBG F-2s.
Here - see this from Childers work;
Three of the seven kinds of F1 hybrids which produced large F2 populations when stocked in ponds containing either no other fishes or hybrid crappies were also stocked in ponds with largemouth bass. RG F1 hybrids and GB F1 hybrids, when stocked with largemouth bass, produced only a few Fo hybrids. No F2 hybrids were found in the pond stocked with BW F1 hybrids and largemouth bass. Only a few BW F2 hybrids were found when an 18-acre lake containing BW F1 hybrids; largemouth bass; warmouths; bluegills; channel catfish, Ictalurus punctatus ( Rafinesque); and lake chubsuckers, Erimyzon sucetta ( Lacepede), was drained. The results of these experiments, although not conclusive because of the small number of trials, do indicate that RG, GB, and BW F1 hybrids which are capable of producing large F2 populations in ponds containing either no other species or hybrid crappies are unable to do so in ponds containing largemouth bass. It is not known whether scarcities of F2 hybrids in ponds containing largemouth bass are the result of low fecundity of F1 hybrids or a high vulnerability of F2 .... The BW x B backcross was made by stocking adult male BW F1 hybrids and adult female bluegills in a pond which contained no other fishes. R x RW, W x RW, B x RW, G x RW, R x GB, and RB x W young were killed after they developed into free-swimming fry because of the lack of ponds in which they could be stocked. All six kinds of fry appeared to be normal and probably would have developed into adults. Free-swimming fry of the remaining six crosses in the laboratory were stocked in ponds and did develop into adult fishes. BW x B, G x GW, and B x RG populations produced large numbers of young.
Are we differentiating between viable and fertile?
Not all hybrid sunfish exhibit skewed sex ratios and you can get skewed sex ratios within a species like the bluegill when rearing only a brood resulting from a single-mating.
I was not trying to distinguish between any of the possible terms used. Anyone reading or researching on sunfish crosses does need to understand some basics like the difference between , fertile , viable , normal , abnormal and the different stages to which they apply. Also important are the terms cross , back-cross , F-1 , F-2, F-X , skewed sex ratio and reciprocal cross and others.
For all you GSF fans out there, caught this nice 8+" specimen today. BG were kind of persnickety today in 54 degrees water after a cold 1" rain. But the hybrid sunfish and a couple GSF were more cooperative.
Although I do not specifically have trophy goals for my main pond, I would like to raise a 12" GSF. This one went back in to grow. The smaller ones usually get diced up for CC feed.
John, i’ve Only caught one bigger than that and I believe the gsf genes were pretty well gone. However, they were obvious. I returned it to the water quickly before I realized that I should have taken a phone pic.
It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.
Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.
Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Squeeze them for gametes. Will work this time of year.
Hi Jim,
Just a few of questions about GSF specifically.
Could you describe how to do the squeeze most effectively and with least harm to the fish? I'm imagining applying pressure from the front of the abdomen to the rear like milking.
Do eggs come out freely from GSF? I remember attempting this with BG many years ago and found it to be difficult.
Do you seek a positive identification for both sexes? Or can a negative indication of one sex be highly predictive of the sex of the specimen.
Is there a best temperature to test sex by this method?
Last edited by jpsdad; 06/02/1806:02 AM.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
"Just as professor Neal said at the PB conf. the great bulk of performance (growth/size etc) is due to conditions other than genetics like food , water quality , proper environment etc."
I agree with this. Sometimes differences in environment or behavior favor growth potential of one species over another. One BOW I fish I catch 8 to 9 in GSF but have yet catch a BG exceeding 7. There are far fewer GSF. The BOW seems to favor reproduction of BG while favoring the growth and ultimate size of GSF.
In indoor food-fish feeding trials, growth seems to favor BG over HBG. Probably GSF would rank lower than BG as well. Maybe BG handle cramped quarters much better? Even so, not a pond environment.
I notice that in Oklahoma and Kansas the record GSF and BG have very similar weights with GSF slightly larger. In Texas, big as the state is, the record GSF is half the weight of Oklahoma and Kansas records. Also it is only 65% the weight of the Texas record BG. Odd? Or should this be expected?
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
I wonder if GSF do not have a higher metabolic rate than BG. Comcerning feeding fish food it is not for lack of eating. If I fish some for BG after feeding and catch a GSF, its belly will be extended to the point it looks like it is ready to pop. I watched a GSF feed on pellets the other night. The BG would grab a pellet and go. This particular GSF was hogging them one right after another like a CC would. They will gorge themselves on pellets.
So if GSF grow slower, it is not for lack of eating.
When I catch GSF I don't know how to determine its gender. I once caught a male that I though for certain was a female because its belly was so distended. It was a male however and its gullet was utterly full with a 2 inch cray, a small fish that I think was YOY GSF., and a fair amount of gunk that I couldn't identify. They hit inline spinners very well and I wonder if they don't prefer fish over insects.
I wonder which tends to grow larger, the male or female GSF?
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
). A couple were 9", the others were slightly smaller.
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