I stocked LMB BG and CC 3 years ago. I also put 20lbs of FHM In there and i see minnows all over the place during the summer. It's 1.5 acres and I was wanting to add about 100 black crappie. All I can find right now are the 1 to 3 in black crappie. My questions is would they make it since they are so small even though I have a bunch of FHM. Would it be better to put them in there now since the bass are not eating much or when it warms up. It below freezing now but going to warm up a little soon. Thanks and sorry for long post.
I'm not any kind of expert at all. But sorry the experts here will probably tell you not to do that. Crappies are not a good idea in a small pond. They will overpopulate too fast.
As I recall from reading what the experts said in other older threads is that the crappie can have very variable spawns. A person might get along fine for or a while or might not, but then perfect conditions come along for a perfect spawn and they overpopulate in a single year.
Seems like they want a large BOW before recommending the fish. Maybe 10 or 20 acres?
One of the experts will be along shortly I'm sure, now that the non-experts are bringing the thread up to the top of activity.
An archive search will bring up quite a bit of info because I remember reading several things on the subject while reading some of the older threads.
You may consider hybrid crappie, I know a few ponds/lakes using them recently. Suppose to make them spawn less or not at all. Like I said it was recently so I can't say on long term effects.
IMO something is wrong with the balance in your pond if you truly have ""i see minnows all over the place during the summer"". In a balanced pond after 3 yrs with LMB in the pond,, the fathead minnnows should be in very short supply if the bass are at proper numbers and growing well. Bass typically eliminate all the FHM after the 2nd or 3rd yr. Often when the first spawn of bass is at the end of their 1st summer is when the all fatheads finally disappear. Rarely does it take 4 yrs for bass to eliminate the fatheads. There are several possible reasons: 1. the minnows are not fathead minnows but small BG. 2. the 1st stocked fingerling bass had poor survival. 3. the stocked bass have not spawned yet. 4. tremendous amounts of weeds are protecting the FHM and you will have issues later with too many BG surviving and overpopulating. IMO your first step is to verify if the abundant "minnows" are truly fatheads or small bluegill. Re evaluate and identify the small fish numbers in spring before the bass spawn. The second step is to determine if the LMB are at proper density compared to the number of bass and BG stocked. To few bass will require extra management. It is certain you do not have too many bass due to what you estimate is an abundance of small fish. High numbers of bass will eliminate the FHM in the first year.
Regardless of all the above,,, wait at least until you see the first crop of spawned bass reach spawning size and then re-evaluate your fishery balance before adding any crappie.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 02/08/1412:43 PM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
Thanks for explaining that Bill, because the sighting of many minnows also brought up a question in my mind. The fish guy I got my fish from said the Fatheads would be gone by the end of the second year, which is also goes along with what you said and many others have said on this forum.
My first thought was he must have a lot of cover. I do have one aquaintence who had put FHM in an established pond with LMB already in the BOW. From what I have learned on this forum and from my fish guy is that likely should have just been an expensive snack for the LMB. But in this particular BOW there were shoreline weeds and the guy said he was maintaining a population of FHM. They obviously had enough cover to avoid complete predation. Now I have no idea if he has other problems caused by the vegetation, but that is at least one case where FHM were put into an established pond and enough survived to maintain a population.
The guy said when he and his wife would do their daily walk around the pond, he noticed LMB started following them along the shore. Come to find out, when they walked, they would scare out FHM, frogs or whatever and the LMB were there for lunch. The LMB had learned to feed when humans were walking the shore line. I thought that was kind of an interesting observation.
From the above guys experience, I made particular effort to provide spawning areas and fefuge areas for the FHM in hopes I could maintain a population. Maybe I did the wrong thing as I could have provided too much cover for BG also? Time will tell. It may have all been for naught, because the FHM may go by the wayside despite my best efforts.
I think I am going to dig a small forage pond next to the big pond this spring just to raise FHM and RES, nothing else. I have the room, the dozer, the scraper, the time and the backhoe so we will see what happens. Then maybe I can supplement the FHM once a year. I like the little fellas.
For me it is the process that is interesting rather than the end result. I have not got into fishing that much, so if the fishery does not turn out perfect, I probably will not know it anyway.
So the point is your comments were appreciated. Gives me more insight into what I am trying to do.
Hybrid Crappie are a very viable option in smaller BOW's. The HBC DO reproduce, but the offspring are very inferior and controllable by LMB.
snrub, FHM are a lot of fun to raise, but one drawback could be that you end up only feeding small, young LMB that hasten the time in a pond becoming out of balance with over-abundant LMB. FHM are stocked as an easy to eat starting forage for LMB juveniles while the BG population grows to become the main forage base.
Interesting. Had not thought about it from that perspective. In other words too much small food and promoting too many small bass.
Would the FHM help the larger of the BG population to produce nice BG?
I've decided to go for pan size fish rather than trophy fish, or a mixed fishery would be ok too, but I suppose too many small LMB is still to many small LMB.
Great big fish don't float my boat that much. But who knows, maybe if I were to hook into a few it might change my mind.
snrub, FHM will feed your BG, but the most fun and surest course of management is keeping good records on fish removed (weight, length, body condition, sex if possible to tell and species) and if you begin to notice a drop/increase in any given species size class, it can be seen right away. Removing X amount of LMB annually along with some of the older and larger BG will keep you with plenty. of pan size fish to catch.
The 1.5 acre lake was dug 3.5 years ago. Its 19ft deep at the deepest point. There is a small corner that is only a few feet deep that I see lmb eat at. The sides slope off pretty fast. The only cover is some plastic pallets, the grass around the edge and some cider trees in one corner. It has springs in it so it stays full most of the time. All the minnows I saw in the summer were hanging around the dock. The bass do feed on the minnows when you walk around and scare the minnows out of the edge. I stocked 750 3-4in bluegill. 100 6-8in CC. 100 6-8in LMB and some grass carp. Was supposed to get smaller LMB but this is all he had so he gave me some FHM for free. 20lbs were thousands of FHM. I know that the LMB spawned the first year. The BG have also. We have only took out some BG and CC. Since the CC didn't spawn I put 50 in last year.
I've got different reviews on the black crappie. I was told to do black crappie but not white because the white ones take over more than the black ones would. That's why I wanted to check on here first. Would really like a few crappie that's why I was only going with no more than a 100. Thanks for all the replies back
snrub, FHM will feed your BG, but the most fun and surest course of management is keeping good records on fish removed (weight, length, body condition, sex if possible to tell and species) and if you begin to notice a drop/increase in any given species size class, it can be seen right away. Removing X amount of LMB annually along with some of the older and larger BG will keep you with plenty. of pan size fish to catch.
Thankyou very much for that advice. I also have CC and have been warned that I should start harvesting some of them also at about 2#, or they will become a problem. Thanks to everyone on this site for all the good advice.
Something that seems far too common in our area for casual fishermen is for someone to catch some bass and put them in a farm pond after catching a couple decent size ones in the BOW they want better fishing (typical low-no management farm pond). Their thinking is, they need to put some more bass in there so they will grow up big. Then all they have is small bass to catch, unknowingly adding to an already over crowded bass population. It really helps to see the need for balanced populations of everything from algae all the way through the food chain to the apex predators, in order to grow those larger fish. PBF has been a pleasant as well as informative source to figure these type things out.
The 1.5 acre lake was dug 3.5 years ago. Its 19ft deep at the deepest point. There is a small corner that is only a few feet deep that I see lmb eat at. The sides slope off pretty fast. The only cover is some plastic pallets, the grass around the edge and some cider trees in one corner. It has springs in it so it stays full most of the time. All the minnows I saw in the summer were hanging around the dock. The bass do feed on the minnows when you walk around and scare the minnows out of the edge. I stocked 750 3-4in bluegill. 100 6-8in CC. 100 6-8in LMB and some grass carp. Was supposed to get smaller LMB but this is all he had so he gave me some FHM for free. 20lbs were thousands of FHM. I know that the LMB spawned the first year. The BG have also. We have only took out some BG and CC. Since the CC didn't spawn I put 50 in last year.
I've got different reviews on the black crappie. I was told to do black crappie but not white because the white ones take over more than the black ones would. That's why I wanted to check on here first. Would really like a few crappie that's why I was only going with no more than a 100. Thanks for all the replies back
urup, If I was absolutely dead set on having crappies, I would go with the hybrids or the blacks. Wanting a few crappies is understandable, but that's the whole trick with these fish....boom or bust spawning makes it very hard to control their numbers in a small pond.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
Very hard to have a good pond/lake (under 40 acres) with crappie (black , white or hybrids) as they all overpopulate in time. There is a method but it does not involve LMB and BG. There are exceptions to everything and some ponds do have crappie that seem to do ok with LMB and BG. Problem is we can't so far tell what it is about those ponds that make them work. Here is the archive link on crappie and an excerpt on the plan that seems to be working.
From one of the linked threads on Crappie. Now several yeas old. BC= black crappie in this post. Jeff now works with Shawn Banks.
Southeastern Pond Management reports in its client newsletter ( see link to newsletter http://www.sepond.com/images/news/FishTales/sepondfall07.pdf ) excellent success (so far) with Crappie in Southern ponds. This is the same company that one of our PB Convention speakers (Dr. Jeff Slipke) works for. He also provided the PB Forum through Dave Willis info on SMB in Southern ponds. The newsletter contains an article on that as well.
Back to the article on Crappie. With research from reservoirs on HSB feeding they found what we know that the HSB ate a lot of TShad. They also found that HSB eat a lot of young crappie. With that info they decided to try that application on some test ponds. They started with a clean pond and added TShad , GShiners and FH in the fall. The next spring they stocked BC fingerlings followed by HSB in the fall. Over the next 4 years they saw fast growth among the crappie with little crappie recruitment. No sign of the usual problems with crappie in ponds. They then created more ponds like the first and report that electrofishing results are very promising - slab crappie with no overpopulation and - yes the HSB are doing well. A pic of one of the HSB appears to be about 8 lbs. A pic of one of the crappie looks to be about 1.5 to 2 lbs.
Update - additional info on this idea -
North American Journal of Fisheries Management Fish Community Response to Hybrid Striped Bass Introduction in Small Warmwater Impoundments J. Wesley Neal*, Richard L. Noble, and James A. Rice
Results from this study suggest hybrid striped bass may have consumed enough small black crappies to prevent overpopulation without eliminating recruitment. However, further study is warranted using a larger number of ponds and differing conditions. If these results can be replicated, enhancing crappie fisheries while simultaneously creating a hybrid striped bass fisheries would be a favorable alternative to complete pond reclamation.
ewest, have you yet to find any report of a hybrid crappie overpopulating a pond yet, empirical OR anecdotal? With the boom/bust spawning, I don't put anything out of the realm of possibilities, but so far, in ponds reporting, Hybrid Crappie have been unable to sustain a meaningful population in small ponds that are fished regularly.
NOTE: JM Malone and Sons is the Hybrid Crappie producer, with an excellent reputation for honesty and integrity, but absent any scientific study on the Hybrid Crappie, all their "reports" over the last 18 years or so are anecdotal.
Thanks everyone for the response. I might not go with the crappie. I always look to this site before I do anything. I don't want to mess anything up. I guess I should take some LMB out this year since I have never took any out yet. I plan on taking more fish out this year to cook at the house and know that crappie are good that's why I was considering putting them in there.
Overton's Fisheries who is a PondBoss sponsor added hybrid crappie to my pond last year.
Here is what Overton's Fisheries says about Hybrid Crappie:
"The Hybrid Crappie (Black/White Cross) are finally available as an option for stocking crappie in small ponds. Traditionally crappie have not been recommended for stocking in less than 10-15 surface acres due to their potential to overpopulate. The spawning potential of hybrid crappie is greatly reduced compared to that of their white and black crappie counterparts, so they are a better option for small waters. Suggested stocking rate is 100-300 per surface acre. Ideal forage for crappie are minnows and threadfin shad."
I know nothing about hybrid crappie but have looked up the spawning rates between black and white crappie and find that they are about the same. I personally think that the black crappie deal is a fish sellers scam.
As far as stocking crappie anywhere, I remember Lusk writing about a private lake with too many stunted crappie. Some of them were 4 inches long and 7 years old.
It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.
Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.
Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
I think a key in trying to produce decent crappies in smaller ponds is to wait until the HSB, LMB, etc are advanced in size before stocking the crappies. This allows them to effectively prey on the crappies.
URUP There is a possible solution that was in a pond boss magazine article for people that want some crappie to catch in a small environment. The thought was to same sex adult crappie so that there will be no breeding and add them to the pond.
On a side note I have a 3 acre pond that I put in BCP last year. I am predator heavy and intend on using the pond for high volume fishing. It will be years before I can report how it works out in the long run. Crappie in a short term tend to do well in smaller ponds. It is the long term high populations that stunts the fish. I also put them in a pond that I can drain and refill in a short time span so if things go wrong for me it is not a big issue.
Also here is video you might like. 1.5 acre Farm Pond Crappie fishing
Here is one Evaluation of F1 Hybrid Crappies as Sport Fish in Small Impoundments MICHAEL L. HOOE and D. HOMER BUCK
Illinois Natural History Survey, Sam Parr Biological Station, Rural Route 1, Box 174, Kinmundy, Illinois 62854, USA
Abstract.—Growth and reproductive characteristics of reciprocal F1 and F2 hybrid crappies–white crappies Pomoxis annularis × black crappies P. nigromaculatus–were examined to determine if hybrids are better suited for stocking in small impoundments than their parent species. Relative weight gains of the reciprocal age-0 F1 and F2 hybrid crappies were not significantly different (P = 0.55), but the relationship may have been masked by differences in initial sizes of the test fish. Second-year relative growth rates of both reciprocal F1 hybrids were significantly greater than growth of either of the parent species and, with one exception, than growth of the reciprocal F2 hybrids. The reciprocal F1 hybrid crappies were capable of backcrossing with their parent species, and both reciprocal F1 hybrid male crappies had viabilities equal to those of their parent species. Egg viability for the F1 hybrid black crappie female × white crappie male appeared equal to that of the parent species and greater than that of its reciprocal hybrid. Recruitment in ponds was highest for the pure species, intermediate for the F1 hybrids, and lowest for the F2 hybrids. This study confirmed that F1 hybrid crappies may offer a viable alternative to stocking parent species in small impoundments, the F1 hybrid white crappie female × black crappie male being preferable to its reciprocal hybrid. We recommend that hybrid crappies be used only on an experimental basis pending a more thorough evaluation of the incidence and effects of backcrossing with parent species.
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