Pond Boss Forums AQUATIC VEGETATION Balance of plants in the environment The Value of Aquatic Vegetation?

This is sort of a spinoff from a recent post by dph. But, it was suggested to me a couple of weeks ago to put soemthing out on Forum for your comments on this topic.

Basically it is this. Is it better not to have any aquatic vegetation in a pond, as can sometimes be risked by an overstocking of Grass Carp or using too much Sonar, than it is to keep some weeds for whatever their benefit may be? What if one just decided to say, "I've had it with looking at weeds in my pond and just want a clean bottom. Maybe I will just use artificial structure for fish cover to keep my bass and blugill happy."

So, can I have your opinions on this? The consequnces of either? Thanks.

In Carolina, many lakes and ponds are dead. There's no foliage, no insects, no fish, needless to say what toxins have run into them over the years don't bear imagining.

Nobody bothered to plant them, Nothing thrives.

A few ponds have been well planted, with waterlilies in deep areas, the likes of arrow arums, arrowhead, aquatic iris, lizards tail, parrots feather in shallow waters, in the shallows.

Beavers dawdle around,The fish are as big as your leg, the tiddlers dither in the shallows... turtles, frogs, dragonflies and small insects scramble to exploit their particular niches... two places stick in my mind, cat tail lake, and neusoca lakes, both heavily planted, both bulging with species....

Aquatic plants create shade from hot sun, shelter from predators, places for fish fry to hide, in many cases provide various food for all levels of the food chain... they even improve water quality by extracting surplus fertility and toxins, aquatic iris having quite some reputation for taking up metal poisons....

Regards, Andy

Thanks for the reply, Andrew. You hear of these cases wehere a pond is accidently stripped of its vegetation through chemical or Grass Carp overdoses and I wondered what the consequences were. It doesn't sound very good. Guess I'll make sure I keep some weeds at all times. Maybe 20-30%. I heard cattails are good for filtering toxins, nutrients, and other solubles, but you gotta watch how invasive they can get. I have a few, but would like to keep them in check. Does cutting them constantly eventually kill some to keep them under control, or do I have to go the Rodeo chemical route?

The idea of herbicides or chemical solutions is a last resort. I'd never plant a cattail on any pond in any circumstance, with the exception of small forms like typha laxmanii.

The idea of native invasive plants that are easy to throw in, usually means the destruction of a pond, having wrestled cat tails like scirpus lacustris and typha latifolia in the past well, theres other things I'd rather do.

Theres lots of other plants that can be put in and around a pool which don't become a long term problem...

Regards, Andy

Here in Georgia I manage all ponds for no weeds and I never plant any. the only plants I'm worried about are phytoplankton variety. you need to learn how to control plants like water lilly before you plant them into your pond, or know someone who can apply herbicides to them. water lilly rarely stays contained to one area and is not controlled by grass carp unless they are stocked at high rates. I have seen several pond owners plant some aquatic plants around and usually the plants gain the upper hand in a hurry.

If you decide to plant native aquatic plants dont let them cover more than 20 % of the pond. Aquatic herbicieds will probably be necessary because the plants can grow very rapidly. there are several contact herbicides on the market that will allow you to kill plants in one area of the pond and leave them in others. If used properly herbicides are very safe and very effective on keeping aquatic plants in check. I manage ponds all over the state and I have never seen a pond with good fishing that I would contribute to planting aquatic plants, most of the time its the overabundance of aquatic plants that is holding the fish population back. good fishing usually comes from proper fish management (or just plain luck)

I usually get rid of aquatic vegetation and put in man made stuff like PVC, bricks, pallets etc. I have never seen pallets grow out of control and the fish like them just as much as weed beds.

Shan, I have no plants in my pond but have always questioned whether I needed them for oxygenation.

That brings up the question. What contributes the most to pond oxygenation; wind, sun, vegetation, something else?

Dave

Gents:

Excellent replies and discussion!! I would never plant a cattail if I had my way, but they were there when I bought the pond. Now, I am trying to rehab it to the best extent I can. That means trying to control them, the "rats", and too many weeds.

With respect to the need for weeds, I believe Kelly Duffie is also a proponent of made made cover versus aquatic vegetation. But, I like Andrew's question; what gives a pond its oxyegen if not for vegetation? I know vegetation can take away DO just a fast as it can add to it, but what gets the DO into a pond if there are no plants? So far, in what I have read, plants are good for 1) production of microscopoc organisms, 2) cover for breeeding and hiding of fish, 3) food for birds and naimals, and 4) DO?? Now I know that artificial structure can obviously take care of the cover and microscopic animal production needs. But, am I missing something for the need for vegetation as well? Hence my post.

Again, this is a great discussion and I hope you guys continue it and more members add to it. I don't want any vegetation if I don't need it and will sink artificial any day of the week. But, I also want a great fishing pond, too, with no pea green soup water filled with phyto- and zooplankton. Thanks for keeping this going!!

Sorry, I meant to refer to Dave's question in my previous post.

The pond gets some oxygen from mixing of wind and wave action but usually not enough to support a fish population. Most of the oxygen available for fish to breathe comes from the photosynthesis of phytoplankton. Plankton has two jobs in the pond, it is the base of the food chain and it produces oxygen. As the sun comes up in the morning plankton begin to produce oxygen. they produce oxygen all day long (as long as the sun is hitting the water)As day turns to night the plankton begin to respire (use oxygen) When fertilizing your pond its critical not to over fertilize or you will "grow" too much plankton. the excessive amount of plankton will use up all the oxygen in the pond at night and you will wake up to dead fish in the morning.

Note: carbon dioxide has an inverse relationship, just before sunrise the CO2 level is at its highest for the day because everything is the pond has been respiring all night. as the sun comes up the phytoplankton begin to take up CO2 to produce oxygen. as the day progresses the CO2 level drops in the pond as the O2 level rises. this uptake of CO2 is a primary factor effecting pH, therefore ponds typically are more acidic just before sunrise and move towards basic pH reading in the afternoon. the pH level, oxygen level and CO2 level change all day and all night long. Just how much it changes depends on the alkalinity,hardness, water temp. etc.

Plankton is so good at producing oxygen that it can do it on a bright full moon and in northern ponds it can produce oxygen even under the ice. Thats why you hear about the guys up north sweeping or blowing snow off the pond, its so the sunlight can pass through the ice.

Aquatic plants also produce oxygen but they use it as well. its also possible to have so many plants in the pond that the oxygen is used up at night. the next time you see a thick weed bed give it a poke with a stick or paddle. the bubbles you see coming out of the mat are oxygen bubbles.

mark, your pond is full of phytoplankton and zooplankton just not in high enough densities to color the water green. you can have good fishing in an unfertilized pond, your pond just wont hold as many fish. take a bass heavy pond for example. If you begin a fertilization program and your pond is full of 12 inch stunted bass, your bass wont grow. you will just have more 12 inch stunted bass. proper balance between predator and prey are absolutely necessary to large healthy fish. if your pond is balanced it will produce large fish even without fertlizer.

Shan; Thanks, I've been wondering about that. I had 2 DO crashes in 2 years that I know about. It happened both years on highly fertilized and therefore highly productive ponds. Everything seemed to be going well until I got 4 or 5 warm, cloudy days. I think I now understand a litle bit more about it. I now no longer fertilize but question whether I'm getting as many good spawns. However, so far this year I haven't had a O2 crash.

totally stopping the fertilizer is not a good idea. you need to cut back. there are no rules to fertilizing, many of my ponds need far less fertilizer than is recommended. when using liquid fertilizer during summer months my usual application rate is one quart per acre and see what happens.

I recently purchased some fertilizer from Southern Excellence. its advertized in Pond Boss, its the fertilizer that floats in its own bucket. it works very well and the best thing about it is if the pond gets over fertilized you can simply remove the bucket. there is not another fertilizer on the market that you can take out after you put it in. thats sweet. I'm thinking about going to it full time.

As far as your O2 crashes, remember warm water holds less oxygen than cold water. if you test for oxygen in the winter you can expect 14 ppm, test the O2 level in the summer and you will get 7 ppm, thats the way it is. I would recommend that you cut back on the amount that you are fertilizing, let the secchi disk be your guide and give fertilizer at least 2 weeks after application before applying more. Phytoplankton is a weird plant and it does not always do what you think it should. Usually I'll add light doses of fertilizer and see what happens, you can always add more.

Or you can consider a feeding program, that usually takes the place of fertilizer nicely in bass/bluegill ponds. the problem with stopping the fertilizer is the fish population will usually crash. it greatly reduces the amount food available to your fish. if you are certain that you dont want to fertilize anymore than you need to consider harvesting some of the fish from the pond. that will help too.

Shan:

Did two things that were very new to me during the past two weeks. Last Saturday, I purchased 10 Grass Carp and placed them in my 1.67 acre pond. The fish supplier stated I could probably add a few more and not risk de-nuding the pond. I'm thinking about adding 10 more. I have a lot of submerged weeds.

Second, a week ago from this past Monday, I tried my hand at applying Reward and Cutrine Plus to get rid of some of my coontail, curly leaf pondweed, and filamentous algae. Despite the weather forecasts which stated it would be sunny for Tuesday and Wednesady, it rained like crazy through Thursday. Needless to say, when I checked my pond last night, there were no signs that I killed anything. Not even close. Can rain dilute and ruin the effort? Can I spray again at this time? Shan, how long should I spray over a section of water before moving on to another area to ensure a proper amount of chemical will reach the plants under the water surface? I don't know if my failed efforts was due to my chemical mix (suggestion?), the amount I sprayed over the water, or the rain. Can you help? Thanks.

Mark, you did not tell me you stocked the grass carp. I would invest in 5-10 more. Also they need to be large enough that the bass do not eat them. An 8-inch grass carp can be eaten by 14 inch bass. Also make sure no water is running over an open spillway since they love flowing water. I'll let others comment on your herbicide app.

Mark,

first off make sure you are dealing with coontail. you may have another weed that is cheaper to treat. lots of good weed ID stuff online

make it easy on yourself. look at the area of weed infestation. You have a 1.67 acre pond, lets say you have 1 acre of weed coverage. Read the label on the Reward to determine rate for the weed you are trying to kill, usually its about one gallon per acre. or one quart per 1/4 acre

therefore

2 quarts per 1/4 acre = 2 gallons per acre. if you are not killing weeds with this rate of Reward you probably are not going to kill them with Reward.

measure off 1/4 of an acre, one easy way to remember your corners is to use those floating fishing markers or duck decoys. once you have a good idea of where exactly 1/4 of an acre is then spray 1-2 quarts (depending on the recommended rate) over the entire area. it does not matter how long you spend just as long as the 1-2 quarts is evenly applied over the area. you can mix reward with just about any amount of water to help you apply it evenly, 2-4 gallons per quart should be plenty. make sure to use clean water in your spray tank, not pond water. also make sure the pond is not muddy from rain, wait for it to clear before applying reward. wear gloves, goggles and all other saftey equip. wait 2 weeks, Reward works pretty fast. My books say Reward is excellent for coontail, I have treated it a few times and got good results.

Thanks, Shan, your advice is extremely helpful. I recognize you are operating out of Georgia and I am in northern Pa., but I'm hoping things basically work the same on the subject matter under discussion.

I do want to confirm that I did carefully research my weed types and I definately have the species mentioned. Second, I did mark my pond off with little pieces of florescent orange flagging tape along the shore at 100 foot intervals when I did a thorough measurement and calculation of my pond's size. I can now see how I can put those markings to good use in applying herbicides. Basically, from what you described, it sounds like when you get your area for treatment measured off, such as a shoreline, you just keep re-spraying that area with your herbicide (such as Reward) until you use up your recommended quantity of material for that space.

So, for example, 1/4 acre is equal to 10,890 sq. ft.. If I do a shoreline 40' out from shore and 270 ft. long, that comes out to 10,800 sq. ft. and I should apply a total quantity of 1-2 quarts of Reward plus clean water over that space with my trusty pump sprayer. Just keep going over that area evenly until the recommended quantity of herbicideis sprayed out. Sounds good to me.

One other question if you have time. Do the plants have to have their tops at the water's surface to be in contact with the Reward for it to work? I'd hate for them to get that mature and large before spraying, but if that is a requirement, I will wait until they reach that stage. I realize Reward is a contact herbicide, but I thought it could travel threough the water column to get to the leafs of the plants and do its destructive thing. Maybe that's where I'm also making a mistake.

Thank you again. I truly do appreciate all of the PondBoss members who have been so helpful to me thus far. I'm hoping by this time next year, I will be more independent with my pond management. (plus I am adding Grass Carp to my pond to cut down on this herbicide thing. I just put 10 in last Monday)

Greg:

Yep. I got the Grass Carp and I saw one of them swimming around last night. They were all good size (at least 10-12 inches+) when delivered and frisky rascals. My spillway is screened over quite well and I had to prove this to the Pa. Fish Commission before I could get my stocking permit. After this year, I want to follow your lead and that of Mr. Cody and go the natural route to weed control. As you can tell from my messages to you and a few helpful others, I am struggling with this herbicide thing, although I am now starting to see the forest from the trees. Plus, it's my first try and I shouldn't get frustrated. I'll get it right I'm sure and it's because of good people like you, Shan, Kellie, Bill, Bob, and many others. But, I am now a believer to let nature do the work. I have ordered up 10 more Grass Carp to get them acclimated and "fattened" up before fall and winter. I don't think 20 of these fish in my pond is too many. They should be here in two weeks or so. My supplier gets them from Arkansas.

I know I will still have to treat for algae despite the Grass Carp, but that's easy to do from what I can tell as opposed to the other plants growing in my pond.

You have been great to me. Any more advice, please keep it comin'. Next year, I hope to be a better pondmeister (or something like that!)

Mark,

reward does work well contacting plants under the water (down to around 6 feet deep) past that you need weighted hoses.

grass carp will help

Thanks, Shan. Can you or anyone tell me if it's ok to treat my weeds after acquiring these Grass Carp and not kill them? I know the biggest threat is reduced DO due to algae and weed die-off, but can ingestion of treated vegetation hurt my newly installed Grass Carp?

I did find one of my Grass Carp dead along the shoreline near the water's edge of my pond this past Saturday. Either a poacher came in and caught the darn thing or it died of causes. That's money out the window. But, I am going to add more.

just because the fish you stock swim off does not mean they will live. I think your dead grass carp must have been a bit stressed and it took some time for him to kick.

I treat ponds after stocking grass carp most of the time. the carp will be fine, they slow down and dont eat as much after the treatment. they wont die. you will need to treat the weeds to gain control this year, then next year your carp should handle things, if not consider stocking more and make sure to haul them properly and temper them with pond water before stocking

Well, I just checked on my pond after treating it with a combination of Reward, Cutrine, and Cide-Kick last Thursday. Despite some off and on rain which fell the entire weekend, I was pleased to find that the algae was taken care of and the Coontail was brown, short, and close to the bottom, apparently decomposing or temprarily arrested from growing. I appreciate all of the advice this novice has received from the PondBoss members I've contacted, and the encouragement to try treating my pond again after my first attempt failed. In another week, I'll treat the other half of my pond's shoreline, conditions permitting.

Shan, I was also glad to see no more dead Grass Carp. I agree, you can't expect them all to live, even though you'd like to. Just one dead bluegill seen last night.

Can anyone tell me what is a good chem to use to treat cattails? More importantly, I have these terrible willow-type bushes along the shoreline whose root systems go everywhere, including into the water. Very invasive, very tough. Some grow into trees, other into shrubs. Anything effective to wipe these guys out?

wiping out cattails and other marginal plants is tough. you need to be very consistant with your treatments. dont expect to spray one time and eradicate the problem. try aquatic label glyphosate (same active ingredient thats in roundup) or a less expensive solution is any aquatic label 2,4-D. glyphosate tends to work better for me, I treat the weeds monthly and usually dont eradicate the problem but I do get good control. If you find out exactly what type of "willow type bushes" you are dealing with I can be a bit more specific about the treatment. both the above mentioned herbicides are broad range and kill just about anything you spray them on, so be careful of your drift if you have any plants you would like to keep in the area.

hope this helps

Thanks, Shan. I will look for and get one of those glyphosate-based products and try them out. It's got to be easier to run a maintenance program with a sprayer than a gas trimmer and pruner. And, I do want to protect some bulrushes and other desireables nearby, so I'll be careful. As always, thank you for the advice.

Mark, For all woody stemmed plants like the willows and willow like bushes, I use a product called Remedy. It has never failed me. Mix with water for a foliar drench or diesel to spray around the trunks. Bottom line: It works. Best to do it when the "plant" is actively growing in the spring when used as a foliar drench or in the fall when the sap is receding(sp?).

I know you guys all seem to have alot more knowledge than me, but I have had a bad grass carp experience recently in one pond. I'll try to be brief (although I'm not real good at that if you've read any of my other postings!) but I need to give a little background.

The pond is a little over an acre and until a few years ago was pretty barren as far as plant life and big fish was concerned. It's steep walled, deep (still a nice 25 foot channel in it) surrounded by old timber and stays pretty cool all year round due to springs feeding into it from above. It's now about 25 years old and had, I think, about 15 white amur put in as part of the original stocking plan.

Maybe 4 or 5 years ago a HUGE carp came up dead one summer morning. This was about the same time I started getting actively involved in trying to manage it for larger fish. Within a year there were nice but not extensive water plants growing along the only sunny area, the dam. This also happens to be the only place cattails grow and there are only a few of them even though we don't do anything to control them - I just think the structure of the pond limits their range.

The year after that the plants were getting thicker but still not everywhere. Mostly just the south-facing dam, but a few in other shadier places. As expected, the fish population seemed to be growing in size. I decided to try something different to control the weeds and waded in and riped them out by the roots using mostly my feet to form channels in the middle of this new weedbed. This was pretty easy and not too bad of work on a summer day.

This worked well until last summer as far as I was concerned. We were catching 8-9 inch bluegill, 2-4 lb bass, and 10-14 inch crappie with some regularity and the weeds had spread a little but didn't seem to be much of problem to me - in fact that seemed to be the best place to catch fish! It seemed like the way the pond is built limited the water plant's suitable habitats.

Unfortunately, last summer the person who we share this property with had enough of pulling weeds off his lures and wanted grass carp added again. He said the local "expert" recommended 12-15 carp again but I tried to talk him into just 3 or 4 and we can put more later if we want. He "comprimised" and put in 10 about 10" long last May. By the end of June - maybe 6 weeks after the carp stocking - there was not a water plant in the whole pond other than the original cattail stand. The Christmas trees I had put in had previously been clumped over with mossy growth and they were now just skeletons. By later in the summer I even saw fresh green cattails floating in the water as though the carp were starving and even eating them.

I'm hoping that the lack of remaining food supply killed of some of them last winter, but I have seen some this year and I would say they were about 16-18 inches in length. There is still no plant life and the clarity of the water (I can see 7 feet down at times) makes the pond look like a virtual desert. I think it's a little soon to know how the fish populations are reacting but there are still larger fish being caught. I also have been more active again about adding christmas trees, rip-rap, a huge hollow log and other types of structures to compensate for the loss of plant-type structure.

Anyway, I don't know if any of this helps but it might serve as a warning about adding too many white amur in one year if you aren't sure. You can always put more in the next year if you haven't gotten your results yet.

Paul:

Thanks for the report on your experience with Grass Carp. It certainly makes me think about things. But, even the strongest proponents of Grass Carp, such as Bill Cody, have counseled me that you got to start in small numbers and work your way up from there. Even my fish supplier, who's there to make a sale, has said maybe we otta hold off until next fall to see if any more should be added to my pond.

So, I'm diverting my remaining funds this year to some more forage fish (golden shiners), a few more perch (yes, I know they're not that great for a bass pond), and maybe one or two more Grass Carp to replace the one that died and any others who may pass on over the months ahead, bringing the total to 11 in a 1.75 acre pond.

Thanks again for the post.