Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Chain Pickerel as the dominant predator

How do Chain Pickerel do as the dominant species in a 1/4 to 1/2 acre pond. Is that size pond large enough?

It is large enough and how they do depends on a number of factors... What other species are you considering stocking with CP? How deep is the pond?

The pond has yet to be built, I'm just trying to gather information and plan a head of time. I'm not sure what I want to put in there yet. But in this scenario it would be Chain Pickerel and forage fish for them, not sure what as I still have to do my research on that.

We need a supplier for chain pickerel!

Chain pickerel like all pike family, are ambush predators. They would do well with some vegetation, lily pads, sunken longs, etc. near shore to hide in to ambush prey. In addition, they do not build nests but lay their eggs on vegetation and brush in the early spring to keep eggs from falling to bottom and getting smothered in mud (similar to yellow perch). If you want reproduction, you would need to make sure to have some of these marshy or vegetated areas (or throw some dead shrubs or branches in shallow areas. I would think bluegill would work but not preferred prey as they are too wide to swallow as they (bluegill) get older and then bluegill could become overpopulated. Pickerel cannot take as large prey as Largemouth bass. Yellow perch plus golden shiners would be good forage as they are thinner - maybe even green sunfish.

This pond would be a cool idea. I have tried to get chain pickerel established in my Uncle's pond that already has bluegill and Largemouth bass with no luck as the bass would beat them down and his pond had minimal vegetation for pickerel to hide in. Bass will easily eat many small chain pickerel as they are so long and thin. Since you are starting from scratch, it should be easy - forage first then pickerel. Just don't add Largemouth bass. I wonder if smallmouth would work well with them?. I don't know any hatcheries that sell chain pickerel. I think you need to get them from other lakes.

oldsconv provides a pretty good summary about chain pickerel. It is doubtful that they would successfully recruit new individuals in a pond as small as 0.2-0.5 ac unless it had an attached marshy or boggy area. Although IMO you do not really want the CP spawning and adding new predators because you could easily get too many predators and growth rates will suffer. A pond full of stunted fish is not very exciting. The key feature for growing good quality predators is to have very good control of their density. Fewer predators grow faster and larger and allow a high number of forage fish to always survive and provide a constant source of feeder fish.

Ideas for forage of YP, GSF, GS sounded acceptable to me although I have never raised CP which are likely very similar to a smaller version of northern pike as far as predation behavior. If the pond was balanced correctly, the YP could provide harvestable panfish.

Smallmouth could be an additional primary or secondary predator in a small pond if the proper fish balance was maintained. Although IMO the SMB would likely spawn and recruit new smallies compared to recruitment ability of CP. CP would likely eat a lot of the young SMB so I would not stock very many CP unless the CP is your main interest then the SMB would be an occassional bonus fish. If you stock CP and SMB I suggest that you keep their numbers of both SMB&CP low or else you will have a hard time keeping enough forage in the pond so the predators do not stunt. A few SMB&CP can eat a lot of fish over the course of one year. Figure on 7 to 10 lbs of forage fish eaten per predator per year.
Link to acronyms:
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92442#Post92442

Thanks for the response guys. My plan was to self supply, there are a few ponds that have decent pickerel in them. I was thinking about going the perch, shiner route, would they be prolific enough spawners not to get wiped out in a 1/4 to 1/2 acre pond?
I always liked catching pickerel, so I think this would be a fun way to go. I originally was thinking trout, but think that might not be a reality, so now I'm looking more into either LMB or CP. I'm not looking for massive trophy fish, though a few large fish would be nice, but i'm more interested in a decent fishery.

Would pumpkinseeds or redbreast sunfish be acceptable as forage or is the shape not conducive like the bluegill, even though they stay smaller?

Pumpkinseeds are a beautiful fish. Not sure if they are prolific as bluegill and would become stunted. Like Pike, The chains like marshy areas to reproduce but I think the pickerel will reproduce even in the pond as long as there is some submerged vegetation. I think northern pike are more finicky about needing marshy shallow areas for reproduction. Like Bill Cody said, they can become stunted especially if food is scarce, but they are very cannibalistic and may self balance in a small pond.

Yeah I've heard they are cannibalistic, which may or may not make management slightly easier. With the Pumpkinseeds, would/could the pickerel eat them?

I would not rely on CP to control PS reproduction to prevent stunting. RBS would likely be a better option.

CP are not as nearly picky about their spawning needs as are NP or musky. CP tend to not compete overly well with LMB or even SMB, more so with the LMB though. I see CP in ponds that are high acidic where LMB cannot live or struggle to live. That is where they excel...

They are a neat fish Travis even though they don't get as big as other fish in their family. I have fond memories of them saving the day on bad fishing days when I lived in Massachusetts. I also remember catching the same fish twice within a short period of time!

Most impressive CP memory I have is catching a RBS that was about 6" long and tossing it back into the hole in the creek I had just caught it from. No sooner had the RBS hit the water when a rather large CP came up and inhaled it whole right before my eyes. They may not reach the sizes than NP or musky do, but they sure do act much like their bigger cousins.

Yes they do!

I saw one nail some kind of bird that was flying close to the surface of the water. Must have been a big chain pickerel!

Here is the path I would take. For starters stock your FHM, shiners and YP fingerling and 4"-6"ers first. If there is no pellet feeding then use around 200-250 YP/ac; mixed any way with fingerling and 4"-6", some FHM at 40 lb/ac and GSH at 24 lb/ac. OR in spring stock FHM at 12 lb/ac and GSH 8 lb/ac allow spawning, then in fall add the YP. After the minnows & YP spawn then add the CP. At first start with fewer CP such as 20-30/ac until you know how well the forage fishes (YP&minnows) are surviving and if the CP are spawning with survival. Spawning and recruiting CP will make your management efforts much more complicated as far as time involved in determining numbers and manually adding fish or harvesting.

Consider this - if you are a regular and experienced CP angler, you should be able to catch your CP prespawn or early post spawn when you can determine the sex - male or female. Post spawn female will have a reddened, swollen and stretched genital opening. Then just stock single sex fish,, this way you will be able to much better control the number of CP and how many forage fish esp YP and adult shiner that are surviving. I don't think the larger CP will eat a lot of FHM and small shiner and these smaller forage fish will feed the YP population. Unless I miss my guess, I think the CP of 16"-24" will focus on eating larger YP (4"-6"). It is not important to stock all CP are one time. It would actually be better in the small 0.2-0.5 ac pond, to stock 3-6 each year until you get the numbers of CP to where the forage-YP balance appears acceptable. As you add CP you will see a decline in certain sizes of forage species, if you regularly monitor the entire forage fish community (all sizes FHM-GSH-YP). Lots of forage and numerous smaller thin bodied YP (4"-6"), then add a few more CP. Too few surviving harvestable YP, very few adult shiners, then remove some CP. You should be able to harvest in a clear water pond around 25-30 lb of YP/ac. FYI four 8" YP weigh about a pound. Thus your clear water 0.3 ac pond should be able to produce a harvest of 25-35 8" YP per year.

Keep us advised as to your progress. Numerous members are interested in your CP adventure.

Nice to see a discussion about the lowly chain pickerel. I really like catching them. They fight good, and they are very good eating if you can deal with the bones. I have also been thinking about putting a couple in my existing LMB, BG pond. It would be a good idea like Bill Cody said to only put in the same sex and females would be the ones because they get bigger.

Thank you all for your input. I will keep everyone informed. But just a heads up it may be a few years before this happens. I'm quite the planner so I like to get everything in line a head of time. I probably wont break ground till at least 2015 (due to lack of funds), hoping some how it will work out this year but not sure. I actually plan today to go down and start clearing some of the area that will be my recreational/picnic area next to the pond. I plan to contact the NRCS any day now to make sure i'm not missing anything. And see what steps I need to take through the state to get everything in line correctly. I think a pickerel pond will be fun. I always have enjoyed them, it makes me laugh when people up here refer to them as junk fish.

Same sex smaller Chain Pickerel could be beneficial in ponds especially if one needs selective or specialized predation of certain smaller species. CP are said to have little preference of forage items and they eat what is most abundant; often minnows, sunfishes and catfishes. Size of forage being the main limiting feature of what is eaten. One study found CP ate 37 different species of foods.

Always choosing the females for larger size may not always be the best approach depending on ones goals. Smaller male CP are be forced to eat smaller forage items compared to what sizes of foods the larger CP would often eat. If you wanted an emphasis of predation on for example smaller yellow perch of 3"-5" then smaller CP of 12"-16" would be more beneficial compared to larger 17"-24" CP that could consume 5"-7" maybe 8" YP. Scott & Crossman (Fishes of Canada) stated that larger CP usually have a direct size relation with fishes eaten. They note that most CP are 15"-18" long and maximum length is around 30" and 6 lbs. CP are tolerant of water temperature as high as 98F and are distributed primarily along the eastern and southern US from Canada to Texas.

Any CP over 20" is a dandy in my book. 24"+ is a trophy and when you get into the 28"+ range, you're talking a once in a lifetime fish. CP will no doubt prey on sunfish, but if given the choice, they will certainly pick spineless fusiform fish over sunfish. Keep in mind, if you are stocking these fish into a pond with LMB, you'd be blown away at how large of a CP a LMB can prey on...

Thanks CJBS I've toyed with the idea of doing pickerel and bass, but from all the information I've seen that appears not to be a good idea. I think if all works out well, I am going to shoot for pickerel, pumpkinseeds, perch and golden shiners I contacted my local NRCS office last night and will be waiting on there response. To get the process started

There are some ponds and lakes around here that have both LMB and CP. Some of them have very few CP. But some of them seem have more CP than LMB, at least that's what I catch. These ponds and lakes were stocked many many years ago. It seems they have totally different LMB to CP ratios.

Type, amount and density of habitat will make a big difference in the ratio of CP:LMB.

What Bill Cody said about habitat plus size of pond. There are smaller lakes like 15-20 acres near me in NY that have CP, SmB, lmb, bg, GSF, YP, Shiners, catfish, pumpkinseedand rockbass and probably others I forgot, LOL. I think they all coexist because of hiding places, weeds and the pond is large enough. I think a 1/2 acre pond, even with weeds to hide in, LMB will beat down CP young and recruitment will be Nil and they will eventually die out. I think it is the old adage, if you want SmB, start with them and you can always add LMB later if you want to switch, but tough to go the other way. Start with CP and can add single sex LMB later if you want. And then can always add both sexes LMB later if CP seem out of control.

Thanks for all the info guys. My dad and I are talking about getting a backhoe so this project may move forward sooner than I thought, now I just to get in touch with the state.

I guess that CP would do best in a small pond if they were the only predator. No LMB or SMB. A small pond full of Golden Shiners or other forage, and only a few pickerel may result in some fat CP.

When I think about it, around here the 2 best ponds/lakes for catching CP are both loaded with lily pads.