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Originally Posted By: esshup
Cecil, maybe talk to the plastic tank company. Run the calculations and get a tank that has enough capacity to hold 24 hr worth of water. Put the level switch in there, and it only kicks on once per day when the water gets low enough. IIRC if you have an open pit, and only exchange the water once a day, it might bring in unwanted bugs/frogs or be an area where mosquito's lay their eggs.


Makes sense Scott but I'd prefer to steer clear of a plastic tank for two reasons:

1. Even at 2 gpm for 24 hours, it would have to be a big expensive tank to have enough volume to only have to kick the well on every 24 hrs. 120 gallons an hour x 24 = . Probably cheaper to dig a pit 3 feet deep by 6 or 8 feet wide by whatever length needed and put in a liner. I could dig it by hand, and I do need some fill to build up a drop in slope in the same area.

2. If it was above ground in a tank the water would warm up in the summer vs. below ground in a liner.

As far critters I've got a nice cover now for the 6X6X3 pit made of a wood framework and plastic mesh that works good for keeping out the larger critters. I'll probably enclose it anyway with a frame construction insulation and slanted roof with a vent tube to vent off Co2.


Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 12/19/13 03:33 PM.

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Thanks for the clarification of the system Cecil.

If your pump already has a electric contactor a smaller size relay could control it. If your pump is turned on with a manual contactor or a big knife switch then as has been said, a contactor switch with adequate rating (probably a NEMA 1 contactor) would be needed to keep from burning out a switch not designed to handle the load. Often the switch on any float mechanism is a relatively low power device and it controls a larger switch that actually turns the large load (your pump)on and off.

One comment about your pressure tanks for your house and the pump kicking on and off often. We used a well pump and pressure tank for probably the first 40 years of my life. If those pressure tanks get "waterlogged" the pump will kick on every time you open a faucet. Easy to tell if you have a pressure gage on the system. If when a faucet is opened the pressure drops rapidly, the tanks are full of water and do not have the proper air gap in the top of them to maintain pressure till the tank drops about half the gallonage of the tank.

Just something to check.


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Thanks snrub. Actually I may have been exaggerating how often it kicks on. My point was I didn't want the aquaculture well to kick on more than once a day.

Thank for the good information. I'll keep that mind when I hire an electrician!

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 12/19/13 10:03 PM.

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A person that catches fish exaggerate?

Surely not. laugh


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Hmmm... Just dawned on me there may be a very cheap and effective solution: since the flow from the pit is gravity fed and the flow rate can be set with a valve, why not calculate the time it takes to drain the pit to a determined low level? Then use that time interval to set a timer to turn on the pump when that time interval is passed? And also set the timer to turn the well back off at the full mark of the pit?

Thoughts?

Hey Phil (JKB) I know you're peeking and rolling your eyes! grin

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 12/23/13 05:02 PM.

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I think that as long as the drain/fill times remained a constant, it would probably work.....but, I wouldn't do it if it were me. I would want the pump on/off circuit actuated by something more directly influenced by the water level itself, rather than elapsed time.

I still like the float idea, and I still believe it could be accomplished safely and reliably without taking out a second mortgage. It just seems to me to be the best fit for the situation at hand.


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Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Hmmm... Just dawned on me there may be a very cheap and effective solution: since the flow from the pit is gravity fed and the flow rate can be set with a valve, why not calculate the time it takes to drain the pit to a determined low level? Then use that time interval to set a timer to turn on the pump when that time interval is passed? And also set the timer to turn the well back off at the full mark of the pit?

Thoughts?

Hey Phil (JKB) I know you're peeking and rolling your eyes! grin


Oh Cecil, that's just silly unless you programmed in some AI that knew what it was doing smile

Talked to Scott, and we got your butt covered if you ever do this. Not mad at you either wink

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Originally Posted By: JKB
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Hmmm... Just dawned on me there may be a very cheap and effective solution: since the flow from the pit is gravity fed and the flow rate can be set with a valve, why not calculate the time it takes to drain the pit to a determined low level? Then use that time interval to set a timer to turn on the pump when that time interval is passed? And also set the timer to turn the well back off at the full mark of the pit?

Thoughts?

Hey Phil (JKB) I know you're peeking and rolling your eyes! grin


Oh Cecil, that's just silly unless you programmed in some AI that knew what it was doing smile

Talked to Scott, and we got your butt covered if you ever do this. Not mad at you either wink


Nice to hear your not mad at me!

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year dude! Looks like it will be white up there.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
I think that as long as the drain/fill times remained a constant, it would probably work.....but, I wouldn't do it if it were me. I would want the pump on/off circuit actuated by something more directly influenced by the water level itself, rather than elapsed time.

I still like the float idea, and I still believe it could be accomplished safely and reliably without taking out a second mortgage. It just seems to me to be the best fit for the situation at hand.


You're probably right but we shall see.

The worst thing that could happen with the timer is the well could continue to flow when not needed, or not start up. Which either way if caught in a reasonable amount of time would not be a disaster, as in flooding or no water -- since the system is a recirculating system and would have an overflow.

All I know is I want to get away from using 64,800 gpd to produce 500 lbs. of trout in 2 years! It's profitable but a terrible waste of ground water! And as we talked about with our state coming up with a "water plan" it could get interesting in the next few years.

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 12/23/13 08:25 PM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Cecil, just pipe it over to my pond. Problem solved. grin


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You do the Roman Aquaduct thinky and it's yours. grin

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 12/23/13 08:15 PM.

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Here ya go Cecil. A complete pump control rig, (including floats) and easy to hook up. Pump Control

It's made by SJE-Rhombus out of Minnesota, who is a major name in the industry, and it's Listed UL508!!!

If you had someone build this, it would easily cost you about 2K. Same thing I was talking to esshup about, but this also has an alarm if something goes wrong.

For 530 bucks, ya can't beat it!

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Thanks Phil. I'll consider that an option.

You da man!


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Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Thanks Phil. I'll consider that an option.

You da man!


It's the best option I have found that is UL508, unless you want me to Triik it out for ya wink

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What does UL508 mean?


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It means that you will have something proper.

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Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
What does UL508 mean?



Correct me if I'm wrong but I think it's a safety standard? I hope it means it won't leak current if it gets wet, etc.

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Just have to look it up! Nothing to do with being wet or leaking current.

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I worked with pumps and float systems all the time when i was underground.

Our de-watering system was cascade style coming up form 5000 feet below the surface, I forget how far below sea level we were there.

Some sumps would pump down 4 foot before shutting off and others we would only pump down a foot and a half.

How much drop are you planning haveing to start your pump??


The floats worked great but the water was...?? Hard. for lack of a better work. and growths and erosion and rust, such would give us troubles.


Water is the basis of all life, by design!
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Originally Posted By: fishm_n
I worked with pumps and float systems all the time when i was underground.

Our de-watering system was cascade style coming up form 5000 feet below the surface, I forget how far below sea level we were there.

Some sumps would pump down 4 foot before shutting off and others we would only pump down a foot and a half.

How much drop are you planning haveing to start your pump??


The floats worked great but the water was...?? Hard. for lack of a better work. and growths and erosion and rust, such would give us troubles.


The in ground lined pit will only be about 3 feet deep. 3 X 8 X 16. I'm thinking the pump should kick on somewhere close to the bottom and kick off somewhere near the top. My water is very hard at about 550 ppm. I have to remove scaling from my stainless steel heaters every 6 months in the recirculating aquaculture tank.

The idea is to have it kick on only about once every 24 hours to keep wear and tear down on the well pump. This is based on the volume of the tank and a flow of about 2 gpm.

Another option is a timer and I see Lowes sells a timer that is rated for 220 which is the well voltage.

Weighing out all the options and will hire a professional to do it right.

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 01/03/14 09:53 PM.

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I will try and catch a name brand and price from a friend.

Our environment and water conditions were far from normal (110*F and all the extras in the water from mine tailings, synide, solids, and other funny colored things) but the biggest wear on our pumps was shutting them on and off. Once a day is a good goal!I think.


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Cecil, which timer at Lowes?

I went thru everything they had and did not see one rated for a motor load.

One thing unknown here, is your well pump a 2 wire or 3 wire?

You mentioned that there is no control box, so that would indicate a 2 wire pump.

The odd duck part of this is you mentioned on several occasions that the pump is 2-1/2 HP. I haven't been able to find one in current offerings. Maybe need to verify that on your end.

BTW: Your supply is probably close to 240 volts if it is modern. Definition of modern, depending on location and power company could be >30 years ago.

Most common would be 120/240/480 supply, so you could run the 115/230/460 volt stuff (which is standard) with allowable voltage drop thru your wiring and still keep your devices performing well. The 110/220/440 scheme is still around for supply, as with others, but not very common.

Europe is all going 3 phase. Build a new house, and they'll pipe in 3 phase. Quite a few household appliances and systems run off 3 phase.

We only do rich peoples houses with true 3 phase service. 60K estimate to run true 3 phase to my property from about 3/4 mile. Not gonna happen! I'll get a rebate if someone else taps into it, but that won't happen! Not up in red neck land! I can do the 2 transformer setup with simulated 3 phase from the lines on the poles for about 12K, but no point in that. They'll drop 240V at 400 amps for free! Hence, using VFD's for motor operation.

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JKB,

Not sure of all those questions you're asking; I'll have to do some checking. You're the expert and I'm Charlie Brown when it comes to electricity and engineering. wink

My dad worked with electricity for 21 years after retiring from the military (I & R local telephone company and Sprint) so he's done a few things around here for me. However he's not afraid to tell me to hire an electrician when it's above his pay grade, as in when I get a propane powered generator backup system hooked up for the house, apartment above the garage, and my pole building coldwater recirc system.

I'll have to find the link to the Lowe's switch. Someone posted it on the Koiphen website.

BTW some really cool stuff going on over there with some in depth discussion on airlifts. One contractor has done some testing with various submergence depths, pipe diameters, and air flow rates and has charted various flows achieved. He says he's come up with his own manifold that blows the U.K. Yambuki airlifts the British use to shame. He's sending me one to do some testing and compare to the some Yamabuki manifolds I'll be building.

Hopefully I can get a tank to do the testing in that is deep enough at a good price from the local plastic tank manufacturer that sells me tanks at a discount. Optimum depth is supposed to be about 65 inches.

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 01/04/14 12:48 PM.

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It is best to get someone local that deals with the JHA's and understands their flaws. JHA's in some areas are like inbred Gestapo agent's that wield authority, but have no clue as to WTF they are doing! Yet, they can muck up the works. Gub employees wink

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There is no optimum depth for an air lift. It's all about the requirements for the current task at hand. What you need!!!

Air lifts can be built and employed with unlimited head! Geyser pumps are more controllable tho.

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