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#163677 - 05/14/09 03:40 PM Problems with ESS-13?
sitedeveloper Offline
Fingerling

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 2
Loc: USA
I need to know if any of you have ordered from Seepage Control, Inc., specifically their product ESS-13. If so, did they request a 50% deposit before shipping the product?
I have used the product and it's truly garbage. Have any of you used it?



Edited by sitedeveloper (05/14/09 04:07 PM)

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#163678 - 05/14/09 03:42 PM Re: Problems with ESS-13? [Re: sitedeveloper]
CJBS2003 Offline
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Registered: 01/19/09
Posts: 10457
Loc: northern VA
Where in VA are you located sitedeveloper? What kind of business do you operate?
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#163809 - 05/15/09 12:09 PM Re: Problems with ESS-13? [Re: CJBS2003]
Rainman Offline
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Registered: 06/06/07
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Loc: St Louis, MO area
There have been some good reports here IIRC. Kinda spotty due to the price. I remember the last time I thought of trying ESS-13 they didn't claim it was a cure all and rather strongly suggested they apply it for optimal results. Application seemed pretty specific, and that it was a specialized vegetable oil.
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#163951 - 05/16/09 07:15 PM Re: Problems with ESS-13? [Re: sitedeveloper]
jnapier Offline
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Registered: 04/19/02
Posts: 23
Loc: Central Oregon
I have done business with Seepage Control and they have always treated me very well and fair - my experience has been first class all of the way. I also believe they are an advertiser and supporter of Pond Boss and I appreciate that - I don't think Bob Lusk would take them as an advertiser if their product and company was not reputable and proven. I don't remember whether I paid a deposit or not, but that would just seem to be a prudent business practice, particularly in this economy.

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#164059 - 05/17/09 04:00 PM Re: Problems with ESS-13? [Re: jnapier]
Bob Lusk Offline
Editor, Pond Boss Magazine
Lunker

Registered: 04/10/02
Posts: 3099
Loc: Whitesboro, Texas
I've spent quite a bit of time learning about their product and how they apply it. As a matter of fact, Otto wrote a series of articles several years ago about different products and methods to deal with questionable soils and ESS-13 was one of the products he researched.
Jul-Aug 2006. PBoss Mag. ENVIRONMENAL SOIL SEALANT MAKING LEAKY SOIL TIGHT. Otto looks into the details of using ESS-13, a liquid polymer emulsion for sealing leaky soils.

Here's what I learned. The product is used in specific instances where soils lack enough clay to properly compact. The polymer attaches to marginal soils and compaction improves. Then, the pond must be filled in an organized way, usually by pumping, to protect the seal formed with ESS-13.
If soils are sandy or gravelly, the company reps will be the first to tell you the product may not be the best choice. From my research, Seepage Control should assess the situation and then apply the product to get guaranteed results.
I would struggle to call the product "garbage." ESS-13, like many, many products, must be used in the proper application or it won't work.
And, yes, Pond Boss won't take on an advertiser who doesn't meet our ethical standards. We always check out a potential advertiser before we take them on.


Edited by Bill Cody (01/16/17 02:47 PM)
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#164211 - 05/18/09 07:17 PM Re: Problems with ESS-13? [Re: Bob Lusk]
Seepage Control Offline
Fingerling

Registered: 05/18/09
Posts: 10
Loc: Phoenix AZ
This is Vance Collins, a technical rep for Seepage Control, Inc. First off my apologies to "sitedeveloper" that has mentioned that our product is garbage. We make every effort to work with our clients to find a solution to their water loss issues. However, not every pond can be sealed without draining and reworking the soil. In either case we stand behind our products and will work with you until a solution is found. I was unable to find a record of any recent sales to a contractor in Virginia, so please just give us a call, email me at tech@seepagecontrol.com, or post some more information and help us understand better your frustration with the product.

As far as 50% down on an order. This is our standard contract if not 100% on smaller orders. I apologize if there has been any confusion in this area.

Thank you to everyone who has added their comments. We appreciate your honesty, the knowledge, and the experience you have with our company. Feel free to continue to post any questions you might have! Have a great day!! Vance C.

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#164242 - 05/18/09 09:50 PM Re: Problems with ESS-13? [Re: Seepage Control]
burgermeister Offline
Lunker

Registered: 02/27/05
Posts: 4025
Loc: Houston, Tx.
sitedeveloper, you need to tell when you purchased it, how much, the conditions and size of the pond, to whom you spoke and how it was determinde how much to order and how to apply.
This would truly help everyone remotely interested in the product. Do not want to scare anyone off, but you need to provide information before posting this type of ambiguous post right off the bat.
Welcome, and I hope to hear more and I am sure many silent members are interested. The product has always been intriquing to me, but also rather costly, and seems quite a gamble when using on a pond full of water. I would also like to hear some positive examples from the company's rep.

thanks


Edited by burgermeister (05/18/09 10:51 PM)
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#164531 - 05/20/09 03:58 PM Re: Problems with ESS-13? [Re: burgermeister]
Seepage Control Offline
Fingerling

Registered: 05/18/09
Posts: 10
Loc: Phoenix AZ
Thank you burgermeister...you're right, that information is absolutely necessary to evaluate this situation.

This post may come off a bit like a sales pitch, but I'll give it try anyway ;). If anyone has any questions please feel free to post, call, or email.

Seepage Control has been sealing ponds with ESS-13 for about 50 years. In the beginning it was formulated using Diesel fuel as a component \:\( Although effective at reducing seepage probably not the most environmentally friendly solution. In the late 80's it was reformulated using a vegetable oil component. The ESS-13 product we sell today has been tested for a battery of standard EPA tests like heavy metals, volatiles, semi-volatiles, and polynuclear aromatics. We have also run aquatic toxicity tests on minnows, and single cell animals. All of the tests have shown a lack of significant toxicity or any other hazardous components.

As far as positive examples, we have several case studies on our website http://seepagecontrol.com/casestudieswater.html that demonstrate the different application options as well as the different types of lakes and ponds we have worked with. Make sure to look at the submenu at the top of the page because there are a lot more case studies on subsequent pages.

ESS-13 is a product that reduces water loss due to seepage through porous soils or poorly compacted soils. Sometimes this is not the source of the water loss. In cases where ESS-13 has not performed as expected, our Field Techs work with our customers to find alternate sources of the leak. In nearly every case where ESS-13 does not reduce the water loss a structural problem is found with the pond that needs to be repaired. Customers can also hire one of our Field Techs to come out and troubleshoot an existing pond before any treatments are performed. In any case our company is here to use the tools we have, whether it's ESS-13 or our knowledge and experience, to help fix your pond.

As I mentioned above we've been in business for a long time, we intend to stay in business for a long time, and we're here to help solve your lake and pond water loss issues. If you have any questions please do contact us. Have a great day, Vance C.

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#164542 - 05/20/09 04:44 PM Re: Problems with ESS-13? [Re: Seepage Control]
Bing Offline
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Registered: 05/03/02
Posts: 1601
Loc: Fayette County Illinois
Vance:

I don't thing that comes off as a sales pitch, but more as an attempt from a representative of an established business with a great reputation defending themselves against a new forum member whose first and only two posts have indicated your company isn't selling a good product.

Sitedeveloper posted started this on May 14, and was asked to furnish details. Now on May 20 we still have not heard from him.

As Burgermeister said he is certainly welcome here as a new member, but not being responsive and specific about what his complaints are is not what I think most of expect from fellow members.

Bing
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And now for a lil mechanical engineering....I'm going to put a rear end in my recliner!

Sushi is fish for men who do not know how to build a fire.

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#165849 - 05/29/09 04:23 PM Re: Problems with ESS-13? [Re: Bing]
Seepage Control Offline
Fingerling

Registered: 05/18/09
Posts: 10
Loc: Phoenix AZ
Thanks Bing.... VC

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#357351 - 11/17/13 02:30 AM Re: Problems with ESS-13? [Re: sitedeveloper]
LAS Offline


Registered: 06/27/13
Posts: 2
Loc: CA
I know that this is late in regards to ESS 13 but hopefully it will prevent someone from making the same mistake we did. We put it in our reservoir and it was totally useless and they did not stand by their product. Their supervisor left before the job was completed saying everything looked great - then when it leaked like a sieve he was blaming the contractor. If you have $30,000 plus to waste, then give it a shot but we had clay and mixed it under their supervision and it never held water. We finally had to put in a vinyl liner. Wish we had just done that in the first place. ESS 13 is a total waste of money. Awful product - Awful company.

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#357356 - 11/17/13 09:20 AM Re: Problems with ESS-13? [Re: sitedeveloper]
Dudley Landry Offline
Hall of Fame 2014

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Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 869
Loc: St. Mary Parish, Louisiana
Their claim is to REDUCE, not stop, water seepage. In this thread, no mention has been made of the amount of reduction. I haven't even seen the use of nebulous words like "substantial reduction", so one gallon loss per day could be considered reduction. Or one teaspoonful, for that matter.

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#357381 - 11/17/13 01:58 PM Re: Problems with ESS-13? [Re: sitedeveloper]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
Hall of Fame

Lunker

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 20043
Loc: Northeastern Indiana
How big is this "reservoir" you were going to put your favorite fish, Koi, in? (According to your profile.) I thought Koi for typically put in small ponds?

Something's not passing the smell test here for a first post IMHO.

Reminds me of the people that write bad reviews for books on Amazon for kicks when it's obvious they've never read the book.

Or perhaps this is a way to get into the door to start posting SPAM?


Edited by Cecil Baird1 (11/17/13 05:15 PM)
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If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.







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#357385 - 11/17/13 02:30 PM Re: Problems with ESS-13? [Re: sitedeveloper]
fish n chips Offline


Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 2315
Loc: Northeast Ohio
Why does it show as 2 posts by LAS, but there seems to be only one? Does registering add as a post?

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#357395 - 11/17/13 03:46 PM Re: Problems with ESS-13? [Re: fish n chips]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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Lunker

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 20043
Loc: Northeastern Indiana
Originally Posted By: fish n chips
Why does it show as 2 posts by LAS, but there seems to be only one? Does registering add as a post?


That's what I was thinking but don't know.
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If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.







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#357419 - 11/17/13 05:31 PM Re: Problems with ESS-13? [Re: sitedeveloper]
Rainman Offline
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Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 6935
Loc: St Louis, MO area
I think the first post was deleted...whether by LAS or a mod as an all out attack on a decent product when used properly, and in the right situations. As I recall, it was quite a rant.
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www.TilapiaStockers.com


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#357427 - 11/17/13 06:34 PM Re: Problems with ESS-13? [Re: sitedeveloper]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
Hall of Fame

Lunker

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 20043
Loc: Northeastern Indiana
Well $30,000 isn't chicken feed for most of us.
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If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.







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#357432 - 11/17/13 07:45 PM Re: Problems with ESS-13? [Re: sitedeveloper]
kenc Offline


Registered: 11/07/11
Posts: 909
Loc: Aylett, VA
It is for the Perdue clan, Cecil.
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Two ponds, 13 and 15 acres on the Mattaponi River.

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#357477 - 11/18/13 07:26 AM Re: Problems with ESS-13? [Re: kenc]
fish n chips Offline


Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 2315
Loc: Northeast Ohio
Originally Posted By: kenc
It is for the Perdue clan, Cecil.


laugh

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#361423 - 12/30/13 05:19 PM Re: Problems with ESS-13? [Re: sitedeveloper]
DonC347 Offline


Registered: 03/26/13
Posts: 27
Loc: Burnside, Louisiana
Ok guys. Just added 4 drums of ESS 13 to the pond in hopes of reducing seepage. I left the fish in the pond, Seepage control indicated that adding fresh water, aeration and cooler weather are pluses to reduce fish loss. I am seeing some fish loss but I didn't add these fish to the pond they just got there. These are a schooling type of fish possibly some sort of fresh water pogy. Seen a few fat head minnows appearing to be gasping for air or eating some of the foam from the ESS. Will keep you'll updated on how this goes.

Anybody know what this is, they are about 2 to 5" long.


Edited by DonC347 (12/30/13 07:40 PM)

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#361503 - 12/31/13 11:36 AM Re: Problems with ESS-13? [Re: DonC347]
Kelly Duffie Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/19/02
Posts: 1475
Loc: Cypress, TX (Helena A-E LLC))
Originally Posted By: DonC347
Anybody know what this is, they are about 2 to 5" long.
Hard to verify from your photo, but it looks like either a young gizzard shad or threadfin shad.

GIZZARD SHAD

THREADFIN SHAD

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#361513 - 12/31/13 12:35 PM Re: Problems with ESS-13? [Re: Kelly Duffie]
DonC347 Offline


Registered: 03/26/13
Posts: 27
Loc: Burnside, Louisiana
[/quote]Hard to verify from your photo, but it looks like either a young gizzard shad or threadfin shad.

GIZZARD SHAD

THREADFIN SHAD
[/quote]

Thanks, didn't even think about looking for shad. Did some research thanks to your information and it seems these are threadfin shad since they have the yellow tails and a underbite. I have a 5 gallon bucket of them dead. These shad might explain why my bass have been really short and fat, .


Edited by DonC347 (12/31/13 12:45 PM)

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#361622 - 01/01/14 01:48 PM Re: Problems with ESS-13? [Re: sitedeveloper]
roadwarriorsvt Offline


Registered: 03/09/11
Posts: 621
Loc: Wahiawa, HI
The shad (at least the threadfin) are a very fragile fish. It doesn't take much for them to die off.

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#361633 - 01/01/14 09:16 PM Re: Problems with ESS-13? [Re: sitedeveloper]
DonC347 Offline


Registered: 03/26/13
Posts: 27
Loc: Burnside, Louisiana
Starting to lose some CNB now, one large on and some smallers ones are starting to die. Hope the fish kill stops soon. It does appear at least as of now the leakage rate has reduced a lot. Hard to tell for sure as we had a mild mist last night. Even with some heavy rain before the addition, the level would still drop quickly. I'm hoping the ESS 13 works and the fish kill is minimum.

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#361668 - 01/02/14 10:18 AM Re: Problems with ESS-13? [Re: sitedeveloper]
liquidsquid Offline


Registered: 11/20/11
Posts: 1922
Loc: East Bloomfield, NY USA
You have to keep us posted on this, I am reluctant to use a product like this to fix my seeping pond, but it may beat a complete drain re-do. I don't want to loose all of my fish in the process of fixing the seepage, but the way this product works may be effective in my case.

I would suspect that if a pond is "connected" in any way to ground water and the flow through the soils reverse direction at various times of year, ESS13 applied to a full pond wont be much help as it will get flushed from the soil or never make it into the soil to allow compaction. Also if the shape of the soil grains is such that the ESS13 does not help it compact, then all bets are off too.

I would make a bet that it is very difficult to predict scenarios where this product will work, and Seepage Control is in a very difficult business I don't envy at all. I hope people come to this thread and also post successful results, but I know how rare it is for people to post positives vs. negatives. However if it does work for your situation with minimal fish loss, that is great! I for one would love to hear it.

For me I have very hard water to the point of when ice forms, lime precipitates out. I think I have a chance of applying rock salt to my pond for ion exchange to produce a similar effect of ESS13 if water truly is seeping through my soils. The ion exchange should allow the soils to become more "fluid" and compact rather than clumping in little ionic wads. Also the fish may actually like it as long as I don't overdo it.
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