Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Raising Forage and Bait Forage pond for Golden Shiners

Hey guys, with a half inch of ice on everything here in Central Missouri, I have been thinking of pond type plans for next year. I have a 4 acre pond managed for bass with LM, RES, BG and, of course, some GSF. Pond was initially stocked about 5 years ago. Bass currently in good condition with largest being about 19 inches so far, many in the 16 to 18 inch range. BG are well established with sizes from 11 inches to fry. I am culling most bluegill over 8" and most bass under 14" as well as anything that looks skinny. So far, not too many skinny fish! I also have a small bow, about .08 acre that I am thinking of draining to kill any fish that may be lurking, then using it as a forage/bait pond for golden shiners this spring. With the ultimate goal of moving a significant portion of the gsh to the large bow to help establish a breeding population there. And to use as bait at local lakes and rivers A couple of questions for anyone that wants to chime in: assuming no other fish in this small bow, how many gsh should I stock? The two bodies are very close together, but the smaller is at a slightly lower elevation than the larger, logistics on moving the fish from small bow to larger, best practices on that? any recommendations on suppliers? Anyone done this successfully, or not? All input is welcome. And Merry Christmas!

If you have not read it yet, FireIsHot has a great thread on his forage pond that you might be interested in.

FireIsHot forage pond

I just read it start to finish and it has a lot of good info.

Thanks snrub, I had read that excellent thread and Fireishot's experiences were part of what made me consider turning my existing small pond into a forage pond. I am mostly interested in finding out from anyone if they have done anything similar with the gsh, other things I need to consider, is this very small pond big enough to get me enough gsh for a decent amount of forage for the 4acre pond, and any good suppliers.

Merry Christmas to everyone here on PondBoss.
CMM

CMM - concerning this small pond and your questions. I calculate that 0.8 ac is approximately equivalent to 60X60ft (3600sqft). I have done something very similar to your plan.
1. Do you have any goals for how many forage fish you want or need so you/we know what you can expect for production?
2. Is the bottom clean and condusive to seining?
3. What is maximum depth and average depth?
4. Is the pond drainable? easy, simple, or difficult ?
5. Do you plan on or can you use supplimental feeding and or aeration? These tools will increase production.

Bill, Thanks for the questions.

1. Production goals: I would like to be able to establish a breeding population in the larger pond, and thought with an existing population of lm, getting a population in the forage pond would allow me to supplemental stock as needed to facilitate that. As far as numbers, no, I don't even know how to estimate. My lm are currently in good condition, I wish to keep them that way by encouraging continued bg reproduction and offering other forage as well.

2. Yes, the bottom is a clear bowl shape. I have one piece of easily removed structure that I will take out when I drain it. I have never used a seine before, but have some fishing buddies that have experience and I can offer incentives to them to come over and teach/help me.

3. Not 100% on the depth, max should be around 7 to 8 ft , average depth probably 5 foot as the side slope very steeply. I will be able to get better measurements when I have drained it. I have a back hoe as well and because of the small size, can take a scoop or two out if needed.

4. The pond should be easy to drain with a trash pump. Any leftover puddles can be limed.

5. I had not considered feeding or aeration. Neither is out of the question. Would feeding alone be alright, or should that only be done in conjunction with aeration?

Thanks again for the feedback!

CMM

I will return with comments after Christmas.

Thanks Bill. CMM

1. According to methods for growing golden shiners (GSH) in ponds (see below), your 0.08 ac could on average grow between 8 to 36 lbs of GSH depending on how they were raised. Lower pounds without feeding and aeration and a higher amount with feeding (32%) & aeration. For reference there are around 250 2” GSH per lb and 125 3” GSH per lb, 4” abt 30-32/lb which equates on the low end, to 1000 to 2000 2”-3” shiners in 0.08 ac if you produce 8 lb per year (low end). When you raise young ones (eggs/fry) in with adults (wild method) expect lower production amounts (6-12 lb/0.08ac) due to adults eating eggs and fry.

2. A smooth clean bottom makes seining easier. Draining the pond to low pool of 2ft-3ft deep will allow you to catch a higher percentage of the existing fish. Seines come in various mesh sizes from 1/8” to ¾” which will you to catch only the larger fish and allow the smaller fish to remain in the pond.

3. A pond 7’-8’ deep will stratify without bottom aeration which will reduce the amount of fish raised due to the water volume that loses oxygen and this 'space' will not grow fish.

4. Reducing the pond volume will make it easier to eliminate the current fish community so stocked shiners will not have to compete with other fish which will reduce amount of shiners produced. Periodic draining will also allow improved fish harvest and weed control.

5. A relative low amount of feeding can be done without aeration. Generally the more one feeds the more important aeration becomes to reduce chances of summer kill due to loss of dissolved oxygen during algae blooms and cloudy weather, warm water periods. Improved production of GSH can be done with fertilization (organic or inorganic) and or feeding ground 32% protein pellets once fry get to about ½”- 1.0” long. Read in the linked material about fertilization techniques. Fertilization at least early in the season to produce algae zooplankton blooms would be a good idea and will help reduce filamentous algae and weeds in this shallow pond. Dense FA and/or weeds in the pond makes catching shiners in a seine almost impossible. A good initial plan would be to use some fertilization (water clarity 16” -2.5ft) and some ground pellet feeding. Copper based algacides that kill filamentous algae can be highly toxic to fish eggs and fry. Aeration especially at night will reduce chances of dissolved oxygen fish kills and help increase pounds of shiners raised.

The following is from: http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-golden-shiner.htm:
The golden shiner is nearly always found in groups, or schools, even when breeding, which is also known as spawning. Breeding season for the golden shiner usually takes place between March and September, when water temperatures reach 68°F (20°C). Females typically deposit between 2,700 and 4,700 eggs in the debris of sandbars. They will sometimes deposit their eggs in the nests of largemouth bass, which may lead to a higher survival rate for the young golden shiners because the largemouth bass protect their nests. Males swim behind the females and fertilize the eggs as soon as they are deposited.
After the eggs are deposited and fertilized, they receive no further care from the parent fish. Generally, the eggs hatch within four or five days. The newly hatched golden shiners typically stick together in large schools near the shore, and feed on rotifers and algae. In cold waters, the young golden shiners generally grow to lengths of 1.4 to 1.8 in (36 to 46 mm) within a year. In warm waters, they can reach lengths of 3 in (76 mm). Young fish can grow to lengths of up to 5.5 in (140 mm) by their second year of life, but after this, their growth rate typically slows significantly.
Once the golden shiner reaches maturity, it begins to feed mainly on zooplankton, insects, small fish, mollusks, and crustaceans, such as water fleas and crayfish. In the event that food becomes scarce, adults have been known to eat algae. Its streamlined body, small head, and pointed snout aid in hunting. The fish mainly hunts by sight, so it is generally most active during the daytime.
How to grow:
Agency Gudelines for Growing GSH
Provides some basic methods and expenses for commercial endeavors
https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/event/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/204/

http://warnell.forestry.uga.edu/warnell/service/library/index.php3?docID=37

Detailed Master’s thesis – producing fry and adults – organic and inorganic fertilizers:
http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3210&context=etd

Numbers of shiners to stock for breeding or production in 0.08ac can be at high density, low density or somewhere in between. At high or standard stocking numbers as brood stock regular methods suggest around 300 lbs of adult shiners per acre are stocked in spring (20-25 lbs/0.08ac). The light or low stocking method uses 1 to 1.5 lbs of 2"-3" adults for 0.08 ac (10-15lbs/ac) stocked in fall and these shiners will grow to brooder or spawner size (3"-4") by the next spring spawning period. From info above, there are about 30-40 3.5"-4" long shiners per pound.

OK Bill, thanks for the information. It sounds like I may be beating my head against a wall trying to get the planned forage pond to turn out enough lbs of shiners to eventually establish a breeding population in the larger pond though. I will have to think on this some more. 36 lbs per year (max) of shiners would be a little snack for the lm already in the big pond. Another reason why this forum is so great though, a person can get super feedback from others who have the knowledge and experience. I will for now continue with an aggressive culling program for the LM and feeding the bg's to keep the LM fat and sassy.

Happy New Year!

CMM

Your situation gives others a good idea just how much forage is needed for feeding some bass. A few bass or other predators can eat a sizeable amount of food which is why LMB often "run" out of food after their numbers start increasing.