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#35957 - 03/17/07 11:19 PM Dawn As A Surfactant?
Limb Bream Offline
Lunker

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 118
Loc: Raceland, LA
Quite some time back I heard someone say that Dawn or other dish washing soap would work well as a surfactant when mixed with herbicides. Has anyone had any experience with this (pros or cons)?
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Some days you're the bug, some days you're the windshield.

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#35958 - 03/18/07 09:13 AM Re: Dawn As A Surfactant?
BarO Offline
Lunker

Registered: 01/23/05
Posts: 473
Loc: east Texas
Diesel works well too......what/where are you spraying the herbicides?
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20 acres of trees & 3/4 acre pond.

"Home of the future Texas state HSB record for Private ponds"

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#35959 - 03/18/07 09:26 AM Re: Dawn As A Surfactant?
Limb Bream Offline
Lunker

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 118
Loc: Raceland, LA
Mainly around some newly planted trees near the pond. But I always seem to meander over to the pond and spray some alligator weed, water primrose, and any other grass that I feel shouldn't be around the pond's edge. The leaves on the alligator weed and water primrose look so shiny that the roundup appears to just run off of them.
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#35960 - 03/18/07 10:10 AM Re: Dawn As A Surfactant?
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19072
Loc: Miss.
Yes dishwashing soap acts as a surfactant. It is not the best but is often recommended (by coop-extension types). It helps the chemical stick to the plant longer and is cheap. I have used it many times but if you have a situation where it really matters (cost of high $ herb. or critical plant situation) use the real thing.
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#35961 - 03/18/07 10:21 AM Re: Dawn As A Surfactant?
Limb Bream Offline
Lunker

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 118
Loc: Raceland, LA
Great! Approximately how much do use use per gallon of herbicide?
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#35962 - 03/18/07 10:35 AM Re: Dawn As A Surfactant?
BarO Offline
Lunker

Registered: 01/23/05
Posts: 473
Loc: east Texas
I never used more than about a teaspoon/gallon. Otherwise, you get lots of suds in your sprayer. I agree with Eric, use the real surfactant ..... it seems to do better at working with your herbicide and may be cheaper in the long run. Try Inergy, it works well with most herbicides.
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20 acres of trees & 3/4 acre pond.

"Home of the future Texas state HSB record for Private ponds"

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#35963 - 03/18/07 12:26 PM Re: Dawn As A Surfactant?
Limb Bream Offline
Lunker

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 118
Loc: Raceland, LA
Sounds good. Thanks for the info. guys!
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Some days you're the bug, some days you're the windshield.

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#35964 - 03/18/07 12:29 PM Re: Dawn As A Surfactant?
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19072
Loc: Miss.
I use about an oz in a 2.5 gal sprayer with water and some amount of Herb. (as directed). Not per gallon of Herb.
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#35965 - 03/18/07 08:44 PM Re: Dawn As A Surfactant?
Limb Bream Offline
Lunker

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 118
Loc: Raceland, LA
I think I'll try both to compare the two. Thanks again for the replies.
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#35966 - 03/18/07 08:56 PM Re: Dawn As A Surfactant?
burgermeister Offline
Lunker

Registered: 02/27/05
Posts: 4025
Loc: Houston, Tx.
Funny thing. Years ago on the radio lawn and garden shows, they all said to squirt some dawn or lux liquid into whatever you were spraying to make it spread out and stick. Now, with products that have surfactants inside them and surfactants sold as additives,(that happen to be sponsers), nobody talks about adding dishwashing soap anymore.
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#35967 - 03/18/07 09:04 PM Re: Dawn As A Surfactant?
Limb Bream Offline
Lunker

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 118
Loc: Raceland, LA
BM, this is off the subject, but I finally got electric run to my pond after fighting with the parish permitting office for months. A few days ago I began to aerate my pond with the small Gast pump that you recommended last year for the solar system. I use it with an Air Pod diffuser and it works great! It seems to be just the perfect size for my size pond. Thanks again!
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#35968 - 03/18/07 09:10 PM Re: Dawn As A Surfactant?
burgermeister Offline
Lunker

Registered: 02/27/05
Posts: 4025
Loc: Houston, Tx.
Glad to hear that, LB. You have a really good lookin' pond. Good fishing.
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#35969 - 03/19/07 06:51 AM Re: Dawn As A Surfactant?
Dave Davidson1 Offline
Moderator
Lunker

Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 13169
Loc: Hurst & Bowie, Texas
It is my PERSONAL belief that herbicides are too expensive to not use the proper surfactant as recommended my the manufacturer.
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It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP

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#35970 - 03/19/07 07:11 AM Re: Dawn As A Surfactant?
Limb Bream Offline
Lunker

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 118
Loc: Raceland, LA
There's nothing cheap about herbicides. You're right about that. I use the concentrated Round Up which is high, but I've seen others that are even more expensive.

Are there specific surfactants that ya'll would recommend? BarO recommended Inergy, but I'm having trouble finding it on the net.
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Some days you're the bug, some days you're the windshield.

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#35971 - 03/19/07 12:11 PM Re: Dawn As A Surfactant?
Dave Davidson1 Offline
Moderator
Lunker

Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 13169
Loc: Hurst & Bowie, Texas
LB, contact the Manufacturer.
_________________________
It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP

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#35972 - 03/19/07 12:14 PM Re: Dawn As A Surfactant?
BarO Offline
Lunker

Registered: 01/23/05
Posts: 473
Loc: east Texas
LB,
Got mine at Estes Inc. Most Ag/Chem stores should have it.
_________________________
20 acres of trees & 3/4 acre pond.

"Home of the future Texas state HSB record for Private ponds"

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#35973 - 03/19/07 12:47 PM Re: Dawn As A Surfactant?
Limb Bream Offline
Lunker

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 118
Loc: Raceland, LA
Good deal. Thanks Guys.
_________________________
Some days you're the bug, some days you're the windshield.

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#35974 - 03/19/07 03:20 PM Re: Dawn As A Surfactant?
burgermeister Offline
Lunker

Registered: 02/27/05
Posts: 4025
Loc: Houston, Tx.
 Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Davidson1:
It is my PERSONAL belief that herbicides are too expensive to not use the proper surfactant as recommended my the manufacturer.
Dave, that would normally be the case. In this instance, he is using Roundup. It's surfactant is the reason it is not recommended in and around the water because it can cause reproduction problems with frogs, etc.
Less expensive forms of glyphosate, which do not contain surfactants, with a squirt of dawn is surely safer than this. Yes, no, maybe?
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#35975 - 03/19/07 05:15 PM Re: Dawn As A Surfactant?
FamilyTradition Offline
Lunker

Registered: 08/05/06
Posts: 264
Loc: Deer Park & Shiro Texas
LB, try your local COOP dealer, they should have sufactant along with Tractor Supply.
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Pond Boss subscriber ever since I joined the forum. Thanks Bob!

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#35976 - 03/19/07 09:40 PM Re: Dawn As A Surfactant?
Dave Davidson1 Offline
Moderator
Lunker

Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 13169
Loc: Hurst & Bowie, Texas
Burger, I agree that I would do it rather than start finding frogs named Igor.

I don't usually worry about overspray. Of course, I might develop a third ear.
_________________________
It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP

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#35977 - 03/19/07 10:26 PM Re: Dawn As A Surfactant?
Frank Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 369
Loc: Macon Georgia
I agree with those that recommend appropriate surfactants. If you want to use glyphosate based herbicides be SURE to use one labelled for aquatic use. Roundup uses a surfactant that is not pond friendly. You are much better off selecting a glyphosate product that is rated for aquatic appications. You then have total control by using the surfactant of your choice.

In my experience surfactants are cheap compared to herbicide costs, and the remedial steps required to recover from damage to my fish, frogs, aquatic invertebrates, and desired plants.

My 2 cents worth...

Frank
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#35978 - 03/24/07 11:46 PM Re: Dawn As A Surfactant?
Kelly Duffie Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/19/02
Posts: 1472
Loc: Cypress, TX (Helena Chem Co)
Dave - you get my nod on this one - regardless of which "herbicide-grade" surfactant one might use.

Sorry to speak my mind on this issue; but I have to disagree with some of the above posts.
Dishwashing soap is mostly detergent, with only a small amount of ANIONIC surfactant - BTW, the high-foaming type. In only one aspect does the diluted surfactant found in "soap" serve a similar purpose as the NONIONIC surfactants used for herbicides; which is to decrease the surface-tension of the detergent/water mixture for better coverage and cleaning of dishes or clothes. However, the minute amount of surfactant found in soaps does little or nothing to aid herbicide leaf-cuticle penetration or reduce droplet-deposition evaporation-rates (both functions are offered by a good commercial surfactants intended for herbicide treatments).

Truth be known, there are huge differences found even in the "herbicide-use" surfactants. In general, the less expensive surfactants (aka "cheap") are cheap for a reason. Even if they're marked as a 90% "active-ingredient" (and therefore contain 10% water), the 90% a.i. is often comprised heavily of IPA (isoproply alcohol) and other glycols, which may be detrimental to herbicide performance. In short, check the product's MSDS and key-in on the flash-point. The lower the flash-point, the higher the concentration of IPA and other volitiles (flammables) and the less beneficial it is deemed for herbicide performance.

Like so many things these days, you seldom get something cheap that's "good". But, (in the next breath) just because a product is relatively expensive doesn't mean that it is "good". Cutting to the chase: Chemical suppliers will usually have multiple formulations of surfactants under different names. They have "cheap" surfactants for folks who shop on price (yet the supplier probably make more profit on these lower-priced surfactants). Suppliers also have "good" surfactants that cost more - but, usually for a very good reason. Enough on that....

BTW - diesel makes a terrible surfactant (IMO) for systemic herbicides (whose mode-of-action entails being absorbed and translocated within the plant's vascular system). Why? Because diesel will rapidly dissicate (destroy) the very leaf tissue that is vital for the herbicide's uptake. Oh, granted, it looks good to the uninformed user - because diesel-treated plant withers to a crispy brown within 2 to 6 hours - especially during hot weather. However, systemic herbicides usually take days or weeks to execute their functions on the plant. But, when the plant "browns-out" in hours, the plant's physiological activity comes to an abrupt halt - as does the herbicide's movement within the plant. Basically, if you're going to use diesel in your spray-tank (specifically for foliar treatments), save some money and skip the "herbicide additive".

Lastly, INERGY is produced by Estes Inc. It is a methylated seed oil (MSO)+ organosilicone combination. It works exceptionally well with many herbicide chemistries - particularly HABITAT. However, some herbicides will perform equally well with "good" conventional non-ionic surfactants.

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