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After three years and considerable thought, the decision was made to raise the pond level another 8". I had already raised it 4 additional inches over design right after construction was finished. I'm not afraid of doing this because when we originally built the pond the "bench" which was designed to prevent bank erosion which was designed to be 5' wide. Well I had trouble figuring out how to make a 5' wide bench with the dozer and get it done properly so instead it ended up being about 12' wide. That made the entire dam structure at full pool water level about 7' thicker than originally designed. So the dam has plenty of "meat" to handle the additional water. It also was designed to have 3' of dam above water level at full pool and we still have that even after adding this additional 8". So we kind of over did the dam, which turned out to be a good thing for this project of raising the water a full 12" over what was originally designed.

Actually when the NRCS did the original elevation shots it was determined that the absolute maximum size of the pond could be 3.5 acres. But at that height the water would be to the top of the hill and would actually be running into the SW corner of one of our machine sheds. Which was an undesirable feature. So we scaled the pond back to 3.1 acres where it is now. But in the mean time we also built a forage pond and sediment pond near the shed mentioned. We used some of the dirt removed to raise the floor in the shed and the sediment pond was between the main pond and the shed. All this having been done, it now allows us to raise the pond the additional foot (which was close to the water level in the 3.5 acre design) but still have about 3.1 acres.

Luckily when I built the dock, not knowing exactly how close I wanted the bottom of the structure, it ended up being a little higher than needed. The floating dock portion always had the ramp sloped down to it. This was sheer dumb luck, because had I not got it a little high to begin with I would not have been able to raise the water level. With the additional 8" now the floating dock sits nearly level with the main dock.

Well if anyone is actually still reading this long winded description, the actual raising of the water was supposed to be the easy part. I ordered a 8" "pipe extender" (made to go inside and extend a plastic pipe) and an 8" plastic elbow to go in the 8" overflow pipe. Stick the pipe extender in the overflow pipe, cut the plastic 90 degree elbow to the right height for the correct water level, glue it, and done. Sure thing. Easy peasy. Well the pipe I had used in the original raising of 4" that was used to cross the "bench" area was a scrap. I had encased it in concrete and it had worked fine for 3 years. Problem was the "scrap" was somewhat oblong in shape and not quite to proper size. The pipe extender would not fit inside. Was not going to fit and seal. So after much consternation I took what was supposed to be an easy installation, modified it with jig saw so the lower part would fit in, wrapped it with rubber tape to form a seal, formed up the whole thing and poured concrete around it. So the pictures below show the finished product of what was supposed to take an hour that turned out ten times the project originally intended.

The good news is it worked out pretty well. Original concrete overflow end was just beyond the steel posts in the pictures.



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Last edited by snrub; 10/07/16 09:59 AM.

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Thanks for the update. Your pond will be even better now, especially in the upper end. You will be glad for the extra water to help ride through the inevitable drought periods of SE Kansas.

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This is what the new water level looks like running at 4" over the new full pool level or in other words 12" over what was the old full pool level.
I knew on part of the bench I would need to add two or three inches of gravel to get it back up level with full pool water level. The south part of the pond was ok as it has always been a little "high". But it looks like I will need more like 3-4" on part of it. A little more than I thought or else I got the plastic 90 cut off a little higher than I thought.

Will know closer for sure when the water drains down to full pool. The road is solid (already rock underneath) and I have already been hauling and dumping some crushed rock on it using a tractor loader. When the water gets down I will do the final grading.

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I have not been happy with my LMB recruitment, having never seen any small LMB in the shallows and LMB being extremely hard to catch. Since I am trying for a pan fish pond, there should be numerous 12" LMB and I would think I should be catching at least some of them while fishing for BG. Nada. Not happening.

So I decided to go pro-active and put in some more LMB.

Picked up 100 LMB fingerlings from the Dunn's route truck. They were 3-4" long and looked to be healthy and active. Now I am aware that stocking small bass in a pond with big bass might be just making the big bass happy with bass snacks. But with the abundance of small BG I have and with the additional water level since raising the pond and giving a very nice ring around the pond with grass shallows, I'm hoping at least 50 survive and maybe even more. We will see.

There are sure a lot of minnows and baby BG utilizing the new shallows. So the new bass ought to have enough to eat.

If some survive, that ought to at least give me another size class.

Then I go out late afternoon to feed and have this floating up to the bank. mad

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Been contemplating changing the spillway in the old refurbished pond into an overflow tube for a couple years now. And at the same time raise the water level about a foot. Raising the water level a foot or a little more will turn the island in the middle into a submerged hump. I've had some trouble with geese loving the island for making nests.

Got started today. Got the Tonka toys out and moved a little dirt. Picture is of the scraper sitting on top of where the overflow used to be. Had to dig down about 5' to get to solid clay and then hauled in fresh clay from nearby field (where I may make my RES pond next year) and packed it in with multiple passes with a loaded scraper.

Got it roughed in today. Tomorrow will install an overflow tube with the backhoe and do some elevations with the laser level and see how much more dirt I need to move to make the banks like I want them.

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Last edited by snrub; 10/31/16 11:06 PM.

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I chickened out on putting in an overflow pipe.

Considering there was rain in the forecast, the rest of the crew are out actually making a living working getting harvest in so I would have no help, and my concern I could not get the pipe installed and compacted correctly by myself in the weather window available, I just raised the dam height and stayed with an earthen spillway.

But I did get to run the Tonka Toys!

Some pics of the mid stage level of dirt work below. It is all roughed in and compacted. The finish work can come later. The soil and clay works better after it is weathered a little anyway.

I ended up raising the water in this pond 16". It entailed raising the dam height some, raising the water level in relation to the dam height some, and extending the dam quite a ways further around the BOW.

The full pool water level is now within 5" of running over the top of the hill, and in fact that is now my emergency spillway. If the water is running over 5" deep in the spillway on the SE corner of the pond, it will start spilling over the top of the hill on the north side of the pond which is a very wide grassed area. I have basically raised the water level to the max available for where the pond sits.

Raising the water this far was going to cause a lot of shallow water on the south side of the pond. I did not want the weed problems that would cause so with the scraper and tractor filled in that area out to within a couple foot of the existing water line to where it would be about 5" above the new full pool level. In other words, the additional water height will not add much to the overall size of the pond because of adding this fill. The north side was not a problem as that side needed a short dam where none existed before. The west side was going to add some area of only 12-16" deep water, so in that area I just dug it out with the dozer another 4' so the water there will now be 5' deep or so.

So the pond is only slightly bigger by maybe 3' wide on the N,S and E sides and by 25' on the west side. But the overall depth increase on the whole pond is 16".

And the island in the middle (formerly named Turtle Island - the turtles loved it) will now be an underwater hump.

Any red flags you see. at the base of those flags is the new full pool water level.

Descriptions are with each picture.

Edit: did get an 8" overflow tube installed. After building my new RES only pond next to this one, and after installing the overflow tube in it, I came back to thks old pond, put a tube in, and finished extending the dam around further where the earthen overflow had been. Finished!

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Last edited by snrub; 03/04/17 08:28 AM.

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That's a great looking job....hope to see it in person sometime.

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Got the overflow pipe installed in my old pond. Last December, just before heading for our winter stomping grounds, I did get a chance right before we left to install the overflow pipe that I had said I chickened out on in the above post.

Just got back and someone had ask for some pictures of the refurbished old pond after raising the dam, so below are some new pictures I just took.

Normally we would have had enough rain over the winter to fill the pond. But since we only had a couple rains that produced a minimal amount of runoff, the water level is still below full pool a foot or so. But the island in the middle is just barely visible where in the pictures in the above post it raises a foot or so above water at the old pond level full pool. Will post some more pictures when it gets to full pool. Been a dry winter.

The post above has pictures of raising and extending the dam. These pictures are after I installed the 8" schedule 40 sewer pipe and filled in the area where the earthen overflow had been and extended the dam appropriately. The emergency overflow is now basically both sides of the pond, which is about 8" above full pool. In other words, when the pipe is running full, the water will start around the dam on both sides for the emergency outlet of excess water. I made the emergency so close to the overflow pipe level to get what I felt was the maximum water level available.

Picture where old overflow area was

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Last edited by snrub; 04/02/17 08:31 PM.

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Welcome back! It's been nice much of the winter. This cold snap waited for your return. We had 3.2 inches of rain here in five days last week.

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Glad you got some rain! That should have put some water in your ponds.

I got back and they told me I should leave. They say every time I come home I bring cold nasty weather with me. laugh I have been watching the weather at home all the time gone and it looked like we had an unusually cold December, but then January and February were really pretty nice.

A dry winter is really a good thing for SE Ks as far as farming goes. Not so for central or western Kansas, but here in SE Ks we are usually plagued with too much moisture when we don't need it. The dry weather let us get all the terraces patched and built up and a lot of field dozer and dirt work maintenance that often we don't get to do. So the dry winter has been a blessing for us. All the farming field work and fertilization caught up and ready to start planting corn in the next few days. Just hope the dry spell doesn't decide to extend on into summer. smirk

Last edited by snrub; 03/14/17 09:04 PM.

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Snrub,
Unfortunately there wasn't a lot of run off from the rains. We need a good fast rain for runoff, like three inches in six hours.
I was feeding CC and BG last week, but the water is very cold again now.

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You do some mighty fine work there with your Tonka Toys Snrub!
I'm always fascinated by your descriptions of dirt moving. Most of my career was spent in the logging woods, so I appreciate a good catskinner in action.
My only other comment, coming from the Rockies, is, "Dang, Kansas is awfully flat." LOL

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I'm just an amateur when it comes to operating construction equipment, but I have been operating farm equipment for over 50 years and have seen a lot more terraces and waterways than I ever wanted to, so am no stranger to water movement.

I do enjoy running the equipment........as long as it is a hobby and I don't have to do it for a living! Then it would quickly become a lot like work and my back would be, well, a pain in the back. laugh


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Some of the BG from this pond. I don't know if my growth has stalled out on my BG, if the larger original stocked fish are just harder to catch (their numbers would be much lower than their offspring), or what, but I seem to be able to catch considerable numbers of 7-8" fish and boatloads of 6".

I'm not feeding as heavy as I once was. About 3# per acre per day, once a day, and the fish would eat two or more times that amount easily. Water quality concerns keep me from upping the feed rate.

I'm not after trophys particularly so if I can get a bunch of the 6" fish up to the 8" level that is a really nice size to fillet. I'll probably harvest a bunch later this year.

Nothing spectacular. Just some good solid BG.

Edit: interesting that to date I have not caught a single one of my CNBG. Hope they survived. Original stockers were regular northern BG with some 6" CNBG added later. Lots more of the regular BG in the pond though, so maybe they are there and I just have not hooked one yet.

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Last edited by snrub; 04/02/17 02:06 PM.

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snrub, like you, I can get in the boat and catch all the 4 to 7" cnbg all over the pond using the gulp baits but when the feeders go off I see really big cnbg feeding and have caught one 11" cnbg. I think they are smarter and wiser and harder to catch. smile Talking Bg in general

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Originally Posted By: snrub
Edit: interesting that to date I have not caught a single one of my CNBG. Hope they survived. Original stockers were regular northern BG with some 6" CNBG added later. Lots more of the regular BG in the pond though, so maybe they are there and I just have not hooked one yet.

From what I've read here you are too far north to have CNBG survive the winter.

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He's only about 92 miles north of me and my CNBG have survived the past two winters in fine shape.

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Originally Posted By: Mike4634
Originally Posted By: snrub
Edit: interesting that to date I have not caught a single one of my CNBG. Hope they survived. Original stockers were regular northern BG with some 6" CNBG added later. Lots more of the regular BG in the pond though, so maybe they are there and I just have not hooked one yet.

From what I've read here you are too far north to have CNBG survive the winter.


That could be but this winter likely would not have been the one to kill them off. My CNGB come from Dunn's in Oklahoma and they sell them as far north as about the center of Kansas, although they mostly push their HBG.

I stocked the CNBG as 2" fish late summer 2014 in a newly constructed sediment pond that is adjacent to my main pond. They grew to 5-6" when I started catching them and transferring over to my main pond. I had a DO crash in my sediment pond and transferred hundreds of the remaining fish and their offspring by netting them at the surface and putting them in the main pond. So the original stocking CNBG have already been through one winter that was considerably harder than last winter.

Most of my BG are northern. Being in the SE corner of Kansas, I'm definitely at or above the northern edge where CNBG will thrive. They are kind of an experiment, but they are sold into my area regularly by Dunns. Some have said that the Arkansas strain of CNBG likely have adapted to colder climates than some of the original southern CNBG (don't know if that applies to Oklahoma sourced CNBG or not). The ones I had when in the sediment pond grew really well the first year. They are all in the big pond now, diluted with thousands of regular northern BG so catching them will be kind of like finding a needle in a haystack. I did catch some of them last year though, so it is possible.

Here is a link to a post earlier in this thread with a picture of one of the CNBG caught out of this main pond along with a couple northern BG pictures. 2 northern BG and one CNBG from this pond in this post

Last edited by snrub; 04/02/17 06:17 PM.

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I stocked about 130 fingerling CNBG in the fall of 2015, then in December of that year stocked about 30 adult native BG from 4-7 inches. I am fairly certain that they hybridized with the CNBG in the later spawns of 2016. There are some 3" ones now that look like crosses or BGxCNBG.

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John,

That is very cool. Please post some pics of the BGXCNBG when they get a little bigger. I don't recall ever seeing a pic of one.


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Bill somewhere on the forum (probable multiple times) ewest or someone described how there became two strains of BG. They all originated from a common ancestor. Then when a lot of Florida was under water part of it was separated from the main land. The bluegill evolved along different lines to reflect their environment. Thus became BG and the southern CNBG. Or some such story approximating that explanation. Maybe someone will give us the actual story again.

So if the two strains came from common ancestors, it would only be natural that they could combine genetics again through breeding when both varieties are present in a BOW. Or it would seem so to me, but I'm no geneticists (and couldn't even spell it without a spell checker grin )

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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
John,

That is very cool. Please post some pics of the BGXCNBG when they get a little bigger. I don't recall ever seeing a pic of one.


With my adult BG stocking, I put in mostly males, probably 20 males and 10 females. I watched them spawn last year from my little dock. One of the big BG males would be on the nest, and multiple smaller CNBG females would run in and rub up against him, one at a time. Some of the offspring have strange coloring, like a dark stripe partway down the top of the head.

The hatchery raised CNBG also feed trained the larger native ones and now they are such pellet hogs they won't let the 2 to 4 pound CC get much. They only move out of the way for my six pound albino CC.

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I have the same problem. Particularly since I am feeding less that what I used to, the CC I think rarely get to the feed quick enough to get a bite. I think right now I am depending on them being my top predator since my LMB population is lite.

If I fed more in a single spot, the CC would get more. When I stop in one spot to observe for a while and feed there more than usual, the CC show up pretty quick. But they have to be REALLY quick to beat the BG to the feed.

We have thinned out our CC a bunch. Have eaten a lot of them. Did catch one today I guess at 3# on a 1/32 oz jig with a golden shiner for bait. Sitting in the holding pen with another smaller one to get cleaned tomorrow.

Last edited by snrub; 04/02/17 08:43 PM.

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Originally Posted By: snrub
I have the same problem. Particularly since I am feeding less that what I used to, the CC I think rarely get to the feed quick enough to get a bite. I think right now I am depending on them being my top predator since my LMB population is lite.

If I fed more in a single spot, the CC would get more. When I stop in one spot to observe for a while and feed there more than usual, the CC show up pretty quick. But they have to be REALLY quick to beat the BG to the feed.

We have thinned out our CC a bunch. Have eaten a lot of them. Did catch one today I guess at 3# on a 1/32 oz jig with a golden shiner for bait. Sitting in the holding pen with another smaller one to get cleaned tomorrow.



With your 3.5 acre pond, and all the cover you have, I think you may have some CC recruitment.

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I absolutely know I do.

I have pictures in one of these threads. And I think I have two year classes, because out of my sediment pond I had caught a couple (that obviously swam upstream during a high water event) that were about a foot long. They did not look stunted and were way too small to be original stockers so I am sure they were from two years ago.

Then late last fall I caught a half dozen CC about 5-6" long about the size of what we originally stocked four years ago.

So I definitely have recruitment. Which is ok with me as long as I do not get too many. But this also tells me my LMB crop is very lite or they would not be letting the baby CC get by them.

I put a hundred additional LMB from Dunns last fall but have not seen any of them since. Although normally stocking small LMB would just be eaten, as much forage as I have and with some of the CC recruitment surviving I was hoping at least 25 or more might make it. I may add another 100 here in another month.

If I were not trying to raise RES now in my Sediment pond, I would just grow some LMB there big enough to go in my main pond. But once I get LMB in the sediment pond, they will always be there, so trying to avoid that as long as I can. Eventually they will get in there via a high water event from the main pond. But until then I want to use the sediment pond to raise RES.

The pond measures 3.1 acres.

Last edited by snrub; 04/02/17 10:38 PM.

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