Pond Boss Forums FISH & FISHING Sunfish-Including Largemouth and Smallmouth Bass Lepomis Hybrids

Been catching some hybrids in the main pond this fall and a couple fish have me perplexed. I'm far from an expert when it comes to identifying genetic traits on lepomis hybrids, so wanted to request your feedback.

Little background on lepomis genetics present in current fishery:

CSBG [Northern BG]
RES
RES/GSF [RGSF] mistakenly stocked as RES while collecting wild RES several years ago
HBG No clue where these came from - far and few between and quite large.

First two photos I'm 99% are BRES hybrids.

1. Small gape, although not too visible in photo it had pronounced dark red margin on opercular tab.



2. Small gape, less visible and lighter orange margin on tab.



I'm uncertain on these next two fish. Both had yellow pectoral, pelvic and anal fins, and very large gapes which suggested to me presense of GSF gentics. Some RES have yellow fins...so this clouds the situation, but the gape was still larger than a pure RES. My WAG is these could be RGSF/RES hybrids. Lepomis experts - could these be 25% GSF - or just RES with abnormally large gapes?

Fish 1





Fish 2

Here is my opinion....

The first two look like hybrids, BG x RES, the last two look to be pure RES to my eyes.

They look like all bluegills to me.

My guess:

I think the first photo is a BG x RES, and I think the second might show a RES x GSF...those blue cheek striations look suspicious....

I think the other photos show RES.

On second look, what I took to be striations may just be blue mottling, indicative of a RES...

So much for my guess!

I'm almost certain top two are BRES...the photos may make them appear different, but they were nearly identical with exception of margin on opercular tab.

I have never seen an RES with blue mottling on it's cheeks, nor have I seen one with such a large gape especially on a 6" fish, but I've caught probably fewer than 200 RES in my life, so I'm no expert. Remember, the theory is 75% RES, 25% GSF.

Awesome looking fish!

I think you have some GSF genetics in a couple of those hybrids esp those with yellow in the fin coloration.

Second attempt....

First photo....RES x BG....RES dominant trait
Second photo....RES x BG...RES dominant trait....female?

Third and fourth photos....if I were to see this photos without knowing anything about where, or how they came to be, I would probably call em' RES and never look back.

But, perhaps the gape is slightly larger than what you would expect from a pure RES, and maybe I do see a lighter edge on the anal fins....

Big help, huh?

Remember, this is TJ. I think due to the loud noises at his place, they're RES x HSB.

One thing is for certain, my lepomis are indiscriminately gallivanting around with no apparent standards. Shameless hussies!

Sure....everybody's always blaming it on the hussies.

It's the hussies or the flash powder, apparently.

IMO -- guess

1 is a BG X RES - high probability.

2 is a RE X GSF or you may well have PS genes in it. My guess is PS genes but the probability is low on this guess.

3 second group of fish are a high % RES (high probability) but all have other genes as well . My guess is BG and /or GSF. Real mutts but we all know mutts are often the best dogs to have.

Just curious, I see some pictures of RES with faintly yellow tinted fins, some without, is the yellow tint indicitive of "other" genetics or just RES genetic variation? Diet? Sex?

I have also noticed some variation in BG fin tinting as well, some with very clear fins and others with very light opaque fins that are lightly tinted blue. Is this just genetic variation?

Here are some pictures from my pellet trainning project, notice the faintly yellow tinted fins? To my knowledge there are no other types of sunfish in my pond.

No doubt that local adaptation occurs including color. Plus in lepomis color can change rapidly in the same fish due to environment factors especially stress related ones. The literature on RES is limited and its is not always consistent. Some call the ear flap margin red others orange and some say it is red in males and orange in females. The cross data on RES is even more limited.

Shorty and TJ what do the gill rakers look like on some of those fish. Take some pics and post them with a pic of the fish.

I have to catch one first!

I have caught a total of two RES out of my pond on hook and line in the last two years.

Here is the one that I caught in 2012, notice the faintly yellow tinted fins.



Maybe TJ will have better luck.

Ewest, does the RES pictured in your signature line have faintly yellow tinted fins?

Yes there is some yellow in the fins on my RES pic.

Here is a pic of my RES .




and gill rakers via John Lyons with WiscFish

RES have bigger mouths than BG. I see nothing in the last two photos that would indicate those fish are anything but pure RES.

I think sometimes people are too quick to explain genetic variation as hybrids rather than what it is, not all fish of the same species look the same.

Yellow pectoral and anal fins in RES is more of a norm than an exception.

I believe fish 1 and 2 are in fact hybrids, most like BG x RES, but with TJ having stocked some unkown hybrids accidentally, who knows.

Fish 3 and 4 are almost certainly pure RES IMO.

You guys are correct that RES can have yellowish anal and pelvic fins. For GSF hybrids the pelvic is often a different shade of yellow compared to the yellow of A HBG pelvic fin. The HBG yellow on the anal fin is usually on the margin and not throughout the entire fin as in the yellow tint of the RES. I agree with observations that the yellow on fins vary quite a bit. There is likely very little if any GSF genes in the fish of the first 6 pictures of this thread. Compare the yellow on the HBG fins in the link below to that on the fins of the RES above; noticeably different yellow coloration on the two different fish.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=256325#Post256325

It is not just a matter of yellow on the pelvic and anal fins but where and how is the yellow located on the fin. The colors including yellow show up best with fish in clearer waters. Fish in murky water almost always have murky, faded colors.

The yellow on GSF tends to be opaque, while on RES it is transparent.

Yes and the color is deeper on the GSF.

The 2 morphological features that make me guess the second group of fish on pg 1 have some non-RES genes are the lower jaw and pectoral fin width. Those could be local adaptation. I can't see the tail fin or gill rakers. The head shape is a bit odd for RES but I note that Bruce has posted pics of RES local to that area with the same head shape.

Hear are side by side pics.

There do seem to be some RES that have a more rounded face such as your RES Eric. Others seem to have a more pointed face like the ones TJ has posted.