Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Soil questions pond leak question

I have a relatively new pond on my ranch in Blanco,TX. The pond was built just before I bought the place so I did not see the construction. It was a wet year and the creek feeding the pond was running and water going out the overflow pipe. I did not realize that the pond had a leak until the creek quit flowing. The pond leaks in the old creek about 15-20 yards beyond the dam. I had a local dirt contractor out of Blanco come out and rework the dam/core trench. He said it would work. The bottom of the pond is essentially solid limestone. I questioned this needing clay but he assured me it would work. Long story short it is still leaking. Is this just water permeating into the limestone and finding a path to the old creek? Anyone have any experience with a product called water saver plug or water saver seep made by a company in Australia. I really don't want to spend a bunch of money on things that will not work.

The guy that helped you said it would work. What is his reply now?

He actually has done a few things on his dime. He tried broadcasting sodium bentonite where he thought the problem was and recently came in and dug out the portion of the dam closest to where the leak is on the other side. So I can't say he has not tried. The pond is about 1 to 1.5 acres and maybe 16 feet deep. Should I just bit the bullet and get a liner for the thing or is there a high chance of success by lining the bottom with clay. Clay is not easy to come by in Blanco County.

Welcome to the forum.

If I were in your shoes, I'd do 3 things.

1. Research if dropping a well would be economically feasible.
a) With regards to actual cost of installation.
b) With regards to electric costs per month.
c) With regards to the available water (i.e. will it be enough to overcome the leak?)
d) Will the well water quality be O.K. for the pond.

2. Research how much a 40mm-60mm EDPM liner will cost WITH installation.
3. Research how much a properly compacted clay liner will cost.

With both the clay and EDPM liner, the liner should be installed so it is up above the highest water level in the pond, even in a flood.

I have a well there already. The problem is I don't live out there. The well was built for my ranch house but I do have a line going down to the pond. Is it ok to leave the well on for a week or so at a time?

I had an estimate for a liner a couple of years ago and the guy gave me an estimate of $120,000.00. That number seemed ridiculously high for me for a pond that size. Maybe I need another quote. I know it would be expensive but hopefully it will be a lot better than the 1st quote.

I would really like to get this thing sealed and not have to pump an excessive amount of water out of the ground as a band aid. I guess I've just been frustrated that this has been going on for a couple of years and I'm no closer than when I started.

I don't know of a way to pump water from a well to a pond in enough quantity that will also leave enough water pressure in the house for daily usage.

As for length of time, I've run my well for months straight into the pond @ 25 gpm.

I could just shut the water off to the pond when I come up to stay in the house. I only spend maybe two weekends there a month. I may just leave it running next time I'm up and see how much it helps.

What about a shallow well downstream where the water comes up, and pump it back into the pond? Like and old school hand-dug well.

What gpm do you get from the well?

The well was 40 gpm per the driller, but I believe the pump is 18 gpm due to the regulations in Blanco County.

I thought about damming up the creek below the pond and trying to pump the water back in. But I don't have electricity down by the pond. The electricity stops at my ranch house and my current well is up by the house. I have several hundred yards of 1.5" poly pipe running down the hill to the pond. It's a pretty good flow of water that comes out of the pipe.

Do you guys think it would be feasible to dig a hole where the water is coming out and put in a solar pump to get it back in the pond. I would have to guesstimate how much is coming out in day and dig the hole big enough to catch it all since the pump would only be pumping during the day. Worth a try or a waste of money? I know this is not ideal and never would I have thought this would be what I need to do but my dirt contractor doesn't seem to be able to fix the leak.

Won't know until you try. A battery or batteries will let you run the pump after the sun goes down.

It takes quite a few solar cells to move a decent quantity of water uphill for extended periods, and a heck of a bank of batteries if you want to run it into the night. If the well is shallow, you can move more water for less energy vs a deep well.

Skip the batteries, spend the savings on a larger water reservoir and pump. Move more water when the sun is out so you dont need batteries for pumping at night.

It all depends on how much water you need to move and how far. First you need to find the loss rate though to know what you need to pump. Measure your pond size, loss in inches over time, and then you can find loss in gallons vs. Time. Then you can get a good idea if a well will even make a dent. You can also calculate how much energy is required to move those gallons per unit time up to the surface of the pond.

Brad, at 18 gpm, you can pump 25,920 gallons in 24 hours. 1 inch of water, 1 acre deep is 27,000 gallons.

Thanks for the input. Those numbers are helpful. I am going to look into how much it would be to run electrical down to the pond as well. It sure would be a lot more efficient to have a pump that I could run at night as well. Maybe less headache in the end as well.

Yeah, after some research it is hard to justify using solar cells as the payback is very poor. They are best for installations were running electric is next to impossible.

Maybe in a few years, prices will have dropped enough to make it feasible.

The other problem is if you are running a motor or pump, you need a fairly substantial hit of power to get the motor started. Without needing to oversize the solar panels, you will still need a good, stout controller capable of dealing with these loads, and likely a battery to supply the surge the solar panels cannot. In the end, the electric will be cheaper, and then you will have the ability to light up your pond area!

I've received a quote to have my power company get electricity down to my pond. $7,000. I am also exploring applying bentonite to the pond by having it placed in the pond that has about 10 feet of water in it currently. The guy that wants to do this states that he has sealed about 10 ponds this way. Any thoughts on if this will work. The bottom of the pond is essentially limestone. I'm at the point that I don't want to drop of money on something and have it not work again. Also if anyone has any experience with a good dirt contractor near Blanco, Texas that would be appreciated. I think I am going to talk with a few contractors this time before I move forward.

why cant you just run a cable off of the house service for the pond?7 grand seems a bit much,I'm no expert but maybe calling an electrician would be a tad cheaper then the electric company.

Also have you tried to get a estimate on the rate of loss yet?

Without tilling in and compacting the bentonite, I don't know how effective it will be. I think there's different forms of bentonite to be used in water vs. tilled into the ground. Has he had success using bentonite in ponds that had that much water in them?

He said that he has sealed about 10 this way. Of course I am skeptical. After spending about $30,000 with another local contractor I am very gun shy at this point. I think I am not going to run power down behind the dam and try and pump the water back in. The more I thought about it that didn't seem like the best idea. I think there has got to be a way to seal this pond. I just need to find someone who actually knows what they are doing to get out there and fix it.

You can probably run electric from your home much cheaper then your electric company will do it for. Just ask around for a good electrical contractor. If the guy has sealed ten ponds that way, just ask him where they are located and then go talk to the owners. Just because someone has then own pool cue does not mean they can do it on the felt. Good luck!!

Could Otto be given a call, even it is was just for advice?


And ask him if he would gauarantee it. I think that would be a tell-tale sign whether or not you want to risk spending more of your own money on it.

Hi Brad

First off, welcome to the pond boss forum! Sorry your first post had to focus on such a dubious topic. Many of us have been there, however - and you're getting some great outside the box solutions offered thus far.

Few thoughts/questions:

I am wondering how aggressive the leak is - have you measured the water loss daily during dry periods? I have ponds with varying degrees of seepage, and truly all ponds leak, to some extent. If you're only losing a couple inches weekly, living through the loss between rain events is worth considering VS. spending thousands trying to address. It works for me, and many others - we simply live with a couple feet drawdown every Summer.

I do not recall many, if any, forum posts where bentonite has worked to seal a seeping pond. The best solution in my mind would be to work 24" clay over the limestone area which appears to be the source of the leak. If clay is available, this is the most cost effective and permanent solution to the seep. Obviously if the cost of sourcing clay is prohibitive, one needs to consider other options.

Lastly - were I in your shoes, I would hand over my project to THE Mike Otto. He's down near Whitesboro, and consults anywhere in the US. He's an owner of Pond Boss along with Bob Lusk, and is the best pond construction mind in the business today. Let us know what he has to say - he'll be familiar with the soils out your way and availablitly of clay.

Mike Otto
mikeotto@ottosdirtservice.com
940.736.5333

I appreciate the input from everyone. The leak is more like an inch every 2 days. The water can be seen coming out of the old creek bed down below the dam. Not at the junction where the dam base meets the old creek but about 20-30 yards down. I'd say it's about like a water hose running to quantify how much is coming out. I'll try and give Mike Otto a call again.

If you decide to use clay on the pond bottom I would ask M.Otto about also using or mixing bentonite (as insurance) with the clay for lining the bottom. Otto is one of the best for assessing leaks and repairs. I trust his highly experienced opinion. Bentonite tends to work best long term when water always covers the bentonite compacted area. Once the original soil crack with bentonite dries out (evaporation) in upper near surface areas the leak often returns. I would use the compacted bentonite-clay mixture on the bottom as a much more likely way for a good long term fix compared to just adding bentonite to a pond containing water and hoping bentonite will find its way into the cracks in the limestone bottom.

If the pond does not receive water, how far will the water recede before the level stops going down?. If the leak is in the limestome pond bottom, the pond should eventually completely drain dry. If the leak is mostly in the upper soil layers the water level decrease tends to stabilize at some level or depth.

The pond goes completely dry. After talking with Mike Otto today, I think I am just going to bite the bullet and put in a liner. I hate that I spent the money with the other contractor but such is life. I'll just have to move on.

Mike doesn't think clay will get it done? Liner - ouch! Let us know if we can help source liner companies...I know Bruce has purchased and installed a couple on his former hatchery ponds.

Oops, posted based on the last page, then I saw your post about completely dry! OMG that stinks. Mine isn't that bad, but leaks enough to drive me nuts.

It takes it a while to go dry. Right now it has about 10-12 feet of water in it and it will take months for all of it to run out/evaporate. I lost a lot of fish when I first bought the place and did not know the pond was leaking. My wife is starting to get pissed off about this pond and reminds all the time about the fish I bought for the raccoons to eat when the pond dried up.

The lower the water level in the pond, the less pressure there is on the bottom and sides of the pond, so the leak slows down.

Brad, I am in Driftwood TX which is not far from Blanco and I am in a similar situation as you've described. I have a 1.3 acre pond ranging in depth from 5'-9' feet when full. My pond leaks badly, 4 inches per day until a certain point where it slows down considerably. I don't know if it is just leaking out of the dam or if it is also seeping through the bottom. I can't seem to anyone around here to give me solid advice on how to repair it. I just got the phone number a local guy who does this type of work and am waiting to hear back from him. I would be interested in knowing how you resolved your leak.

And it is this concept that makes it so difficult to find where the actual leak is.

I haven't done anything with this yet. I think I am going to wait until the water drops again and maybe try some bentonite on the bottom along with whatever clay I can find on my property. I guess I am a little gun shy of dirt contractors right now so I am going to just give it a shot myself with my tractor.

My Pond situation sounds very similar to yours in terms of weak limestone layers and not having the best clay bottom in my pond.

I have had good success with a polymer product that gets drawn into the limestone layers. It can be broadcast incrementally
when the water level is down so as to not need to cover a huge area. Then you can chase the leak up the valley as needed.

Or, if you have the $$$ to throw at it, you can cover a larger area with the product.


Anyway check out my post about it. I have no affiliation with that company, they just did a good job for me and while expensive, it is cheap compared to the other options.

John

I actually have tried using this product from Australia. I have put I think ten of the buckets in spread all over the pond but more toward the corner where I presume the leak to be. And yes it is expensive to have the material shipped from Australia. It may have slowed the leak some, but not near what I was hoping for. Maybe I should give it another shot. I have not had any fish in my pond for two years now since I don't think I can count on the water making it through the summer with the current leak.

Brad, I've tried bentonite on several occasions with no luck. Or maybe it was with no skill.

A cheap fix might be to run some pigs in it they will sill it I had 2 cow ponds with soild rock on bottom both would go dry in summer ran pigs in them for a summer and now they've held water for 4 years now never went dry again and im in arkansas it gets dry here, iv even heard of people using highdreht limestone to sill ponds around me but I used pigs when I was done with them I ate them they were good both ways pond and eating but im no professional im just redneck lol