Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
Shotgun01, Dan H, Stipker, LunkerHunt23, Jeanjules
18,451 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics40,899
Posts557,051
Members18,451
Most Online3,612
Jan 10th, 2023
Top Posters
esshup 28,407
ewest 21,474
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 15,110
Who's Online Now
2 members (Rainman, Bobbss), 458 guests, and 152 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31
G
OP Offline
G
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31
Hello all,

I apologize in advance for the length of this:

A little background:
I live in Southern New England and have an approximately 1/4 acre pond (100' approximate circumference). We have owned the property for 4 years. As far as we can tell the deepest point is 6' right now, so probably 7' when the water is higher. The majority of pond is that depth as the shallow areas reach 6' within 10' of shore. The pond is man made and was put in in the '70's to irrigate the garden. It is not lined. It is spring fed from the bottom and has an outflow (though the spring doesn't feed it so much that it is always outflowing, only when we get lots of rain). It has a stone bottom (not that I can see it) and the man who installed it used to swim in it and said it was 9' deep. The trees have certainly grown in around it as I have pictures from the 90's.

The owner before us, who bought the place in the 90's, added goldfish. They are 8"+ man-eaters. Well, not really, but they certainly do breed like rabbits. The pond has a lot of fish and minnows. I can't even begin to estimate. There are also tons of frogs, newts, turtles, dragonflies and other water bugs- and leeches. The edge is planted with water iris and there are some shallow water grasses and perhaps 10 cattails. We have done nothing to the pond since we bought the place with the exception of cutting overhanging branches the first Winter. The water is sometimes clear and sometimes murky. It has no noticeable odor and no algae.

My Goal:
I would like to make the pond more swimmable. The two obstacles as I see them are muck and leeches. Our dogs lay in the shallows all the time and never have had a leech on them. But my husband went into the pond twice and both times before he could get past his knees he had a leech on his leg. And while they didn't get to latch on it's not an experience that I wish to have!

I have read extensively on natural swimming ponds and am trying to figure out the best way to improve the pond. The following are ideas I have considered that would reduce muck and thus the leech habitat and make the pond more swimmable without changing the natural look of the pond. But most seem quite expensive to do in a pond of this size.:


- Add a net across the pond in the Fall. Not cheap to get a net that size though!
-Set leech traps. I plan to try this this weekend.
-Trap and remove minnows and fish to reduce their impact (not sure what I will do with them though).
-Add aeration. I am considering the Airmax 20SW but it's wicked expensive so will have to wait.
-Add bacteria and enzymes. I am not sure if they work. But I doubt they will hurt. There are so many to choose from though. And again, they are expensive for a pond of this size.
-A pond vac that empties back into the pond, something like the Pond Monsta. It seems, however, impractical to use a pond vac in a pond of this size.
- Perhaps if I can get rid of the muck I would also add gravel to the pond edges and swim area.
-Use a skimmer. But again, the size of the pond makes this seems impractical.
-Add a filter- again the size makes it seem impractical.
-Add a UV filter. Again, big pond.
-Planting more water plants, such as upright rhizome lillies. I don't want the whole pond covered in lilies.

I appreciate any thoughts on this situation and any feedback as to the ideas I listed that I am tossing around in my head. Where is the best place to start and where is my money best spent? Thank you to all who respond.

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 237
Likes: 3
J
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
J
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 237
Likes: 3
I am no expert. I would be thinking of pond aeration system & one ot the muck digestants/bacteria to rid & keep under control the muck in the pond.

A top predator to eat the leaches & unwanted carp. BG/LMB ?

Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31
G
OP Offline
G
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31
Originally Posted By: J. E. Craig
I am no expert. I would be thinking of pond aeration system & one ot the muck digestants/bacteria to rid & keep under control the muck in the pond.

A top predator to eat the leaches & unwanted carp. BG/LMB ?


I have considered adding a fish that would eat leeches and goldfish. Not sure what fish would fit that bill- LMB? Of course I would guess that I would still need to try to trap and remove the big goldfish. They are tough to catch! My father would be delighted if I added something fishable! I just don't want to make the fish problem worse (too many fish pooping-up the pond). Not sure how you find a hatchery that sexes their fish.

I am open to aeration suggestions. The Airmax system I like is about $1300-1400. Most affordable systems won't be able to make a dent in the approximately 300,000 gallons in the pond. I don't want to drain the pond, for a number of reasons, if I can avoid it.

BTW, the leeches are pretty big- about 5". They appear to be one of the medicinal types. We saw them on hubby and sometimes we see them swimming along the surface. We wondered if we build a float/dock and entered the water in the deep area, thereby avoiding stirring the muck and shallows, maybe we wouldn't get attacked? I guess I don't know a lot about leeches.

I would add pics of the pond and the leeches but I am new and don't know how to do so yet. smile

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,315
F
Offline
F
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,315
Here is a link to a little bit of reading that may help until further thoughts come along.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=347862&page=1

I do know that in our pond the wife will get leeches on her if she stands and stirs up the edges, but when she uses the dock and goes into deep water there doesn't seem to be a problem.

Reducing muck will help get rid of the places they hang out. That means reducing things that go into the pond as well as clean up what is already there.

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,177
Likes: 28
L
Offline
L
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,177
Likes: 28
The most important steps:
1. Get some Yellow Perch in the pond, they will cut back on the leech numbers over time. Inexpensive and you can do that now (or soon, when water temps drop a bit more). Try to buy larger ones to tackle the larger leeches.
2. Try to eliminate the trees near the pond, all of those organics are filling it in with muck and providing ideal leech habitat.
3. Don't fertilize anywhere near the pond.

My initial thought is to bring an older muck-filled pond into good shape for swimming almost requires a do-over with a swimming hole as a goal. You will have to weigh the costs of aeration vs. excavation and see if it makes sense.

If you are unwilling to start over with a drained pond and excavated bottom to clean it out, the best alternate way is aeration to help break down organics. However that is slow, and I think you need flow-through in order to rinse some of those newly liberated organics out of the pond. Me, I don't have patience of years to wait for breakdown that may never occur to satisfaction. I sure as heck am not swimming with 5" leeches! The places those buggers latch on is not what I consider polite.

If I were to do this I would:
1. Drain.
2. Treat with hydrated lime to "nuke from orbit". Give the frogs a chance to find a new home, save fish as you see fit.
3. Wait for it to dry, you may need to pump if you have a spring. Also some excavators will dig in wet, but I don't think it is common.
4. Excavate, repair, seal, improve, build docks, etc.
5. Let 'er fill up.
6. Swim.

Last edited by liquidsquid; 09/10/13 08:08 PM.
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 8
Fingerling
Offline
Fingerling
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 8
Sounds like a great size for a swimming pond. At that size liquidsquid 's suggestion of draining is probably the best way to give it a face-lift. Call some local construction companies for referrals on pond cleaning. Channel cats and Pumpkin seed sunfish are also great at eating leaches, but 40+ years on a 100' diameter pond is about all you can expect.


Fish Control My Brain
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 8
Fingerling
Offline
Fingerling
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 8
Wholesale price on leaches is $22.00 a pound!!!!


Fish Control My Brain
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31
G
OP Offline
G
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31
I am not trying to be obstinate but I really cannot see draining the pond. It's not just the expense. It's primarily the difficulty of access to the pond. The only good way to get at it is over my leach field. The heavy equipment might destroy my septic, certainly will destroy the ecosystem which is flourishing, and will destroy many trees, one of which is a 100" year old two story cider apple tree. I just can't imagine equipment that can get through the small access space and over my leach field (less than 3500 lbs) that is able to do the job. I would rather not ever swim in my pond than incur that kind of damage. I am also not willing to do a major tree removal around the pond. We will trim it all back this winter but the trees are privacy for us. This is why I considered the net. I would post pics if I could figure out how.

I saw someone with a similar problem had found companies to vacuum the pond muck. I sent them a PM.

Small Creek Fish I just need to figure out who wants to buy the leeches, LOL!

I think I would see leeches on the fish, frogs, or the dogs if we had really bad leech problem.

I think the pond is swimmable now, just not ideal. I don't expect that it will ever be ideal. I would want to shower after. But overall it's a fairly clean and healthy pond for being left alone for 40 years. We have toyed with the idea of moving the garden and thought a natural swimming pond would be great where the garden is. But that is a project that must wait for a future date.

Will perch or bass eat the smaller goldfish?

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,315
F
Offline
F
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,315
Yes, you could have the muck vacuumed up, but it usually a more costly way to go compared to digging it out.

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,177
Likes: 28
L
Offline
L
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,177
Likes: 28
Yeah, I hear you on not willing to cut down trees, especially an old apple! I am a big fan of trees, especially old apple trees. They seem to have a spirit of their own.

You are likely fine with a backhoe going over a leach field, just not the tank itself! The tracks do a good job of spreading weight out so they don't sink while working.
It is tough to consider harming a healthy ecosystem to rejuvenate a pond, I would have the same problem. However they recover very fast, and if done right will support even more life. That is why I suggested draining and waiting for the life in it to find a new home before liming it.
So it sounds like you have space to maybe put in a second pond? That may be a great option! Maybe make it smaller with the intention of swimming and easier management.
BTW i will swim in almost any body of water except one with those massive leaches, those things give me the willies.

Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31
G
OP Offline
G
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31
Originally Posted By: liquidsquid
Yeah, I hear you on not willing to cut down trees, especially an old apple! I am a big fan of trees, especially old apple trees. They seem to have a spirit of their own.

You are likely fine with a backhoe going over a leach field, just not the tank itself! The tracks do a good job of spreading weight out so they don't sink while working.
It is tough to consider harming a healthy ecosystem to rejuvenate a pond, I would have the same problem. However they recover very fast, and if done right will support even more life. That is why I suggested draining and waiting for the life in it to find a new home before liming it.
So it sounds like you have space to maybe put in a second pond? That may be a great option! Maybe make it smaller with the intention of swimming and easier management.
BTW i will swim in almost any body of water except one with those massive leaches, those things give me the willies.


I think I am inclined to try aeration and bacteria, maybe vacuuming, and other fish. If things get worse instead of better I will then get to try figuring out if the equipment is as big as I think.

My neighbor has the equipment to dig a second pond. He is digging one of his own right now. It's 12' deep. Moving the garden is a huge undertaking. But, we need to move it eventually because the huge trees cast shadows and some of the garden is shady. I figure we could place a swimming pond in the sunny area. And yes, it would be smaller, for swimming. We could more easily net it and clean it. Skimmers and filters would be more effective. But that's years away.

I am not thrilled with swimming with the leaches but maybe the population isn't too bad. A dock in deeper water would help with being able to swim, I think, without being bit! There are some steps I can take and hopefully DH will be willing to try a swim after these measures are taken.

Has anyone used a net over a pond of this size before? I think it would cost around $500 and we'd have to look at it. But it is a preventative option. I also have to get rid of those goldfish.

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 237
Likes: 3
J
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
J
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 237
Likes: 3
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cygnet-BioBlend-...8#ht_1186wt_679

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MuckAway-Benefic...1#ht_1081wt_679

I have no experience with these but they might be worth a try while you decide what to do.

I still like the do it yourself with little disturbance to the suroundings: fish to eat the leaches, bacteria, & aeration.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=350532#Post350532

Last edited by J. E. Craig; 09/11/13 08:05 AM.
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,318
Likes: 6
Ambassador
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Lunker
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,318
Likes: 6
In a pond that size I would go with 5 or 6, 8 to 10 inch LMB. They would make short work of your smaller gold fish and leach issues. Then once you think there under control you could always have your dad catch a few of them and eat them. It's a win, win. You get rid of your small to medium gold fish and you get rid of your leaches and your dad gets to have some fun catching a few LMB once they get bigger!

RC


The only difference between a rut and a Grave is the depth. So get up get out of that rut and get moving!! Time to work!!
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31
G
OP Offline
G
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31
Originally Posted By: RC51
In a pond that size I would go with 5 or 6, 8 to 10 inch LMB. They would make short work of your smaller gold fish and leach issues. Then once you think there under control you could always have your dad catch a few of them and eat them. It's a win, win. You get rid of your small to medium gold fish and you get rid of your leaches and your dad gets to have some fun catching a few LMB once they get bigger!

RC



How big of a goldfish can a 8-10" LMB eat? Is there such a thing as a hatchery that will send single sex LMB? If so, are females or males better to keep?

Also, I think I posted on a thread of yours this morning regarding bacteria you were using. How is that going?

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,318
Likes: 6
Ambassador
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Lunker
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,318
Likes: 6
LMB are hard to sex for even a pro. Not sure if you could get same sex LMB from a hatchery? Guess that would depend on hatchery...

Females in most caeses will get bigger than males. Either one will get decent size in your pond. Say 2 to 4 pounds if there is enough food. The problem you will run into is you will more than likely run out of food for them to eat sooner or later. They are eating machines! So you will have to fish the out at some point once you think your pond is good to go goldfish and leach free!

Most times you can judge what a bass will try to eat by 1/3rd its size. So if you have a 15 inch bass it will (try) at times to eat a 5 inch fish depening on the size of the 5 inch fish.

I posted on the other thread already about the bacteria.

RC


The only difference between a rut and a Grave is the depth. So get up get out of that rut and get moving!! Time to work!!
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31
G
OP Offline
G
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31
Originally Posted By: RC51
LMB are hard to sex for even a pro. Not sure if you could get same sex LMB from a hatchery? Guess that would depend on hatchery...

Females in most caeses will get bigger than males. Either one will get decent size in your pond. Say 2 to 4 pounds if there is enough food. The problem you will run into is you will more than likely run out of food for them to eat sooner or later. They are eating machines! So you will have to fish the out at some point once you think your pond is good to go goldfish and leach free!

Most times you can judge what a bass will try to eat by 1/3rd its size. So if you have a 15 inch bass it will (try) at times to eat a 5 inch fish depening on the size of the 5 inch fish.

I posted on the other thread already about the bacteria.

RC


I thought they were difficult to sex. I guess my two main concerns about LBM then are first that they would over populate the pond eventually. Maybe they eat their young though? Second, I also worry they would wipe-out the frogs. Many goldfish are too big to be consumed by the bass so I assume they would continue to breed. Which means food for the bass as long as we keep their numbers down.

Thanks for the info on the bacteria. I will check the stuff out that you mentioned. I know we need to aerate but the systems are expensive. I'm not sure when we'll get one.

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,177
Likes: 28
L
Offline
L
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,177
Likes: 28
I chose not to stock LMB for the sake of the frogs. From what I have observed, they do a fair job of eating everything clean. Ponds with LMB around here have very few frogs. Instead I have walleye, perch, and black crappie. They will still eat some frogs when larger (I think) but not like LMB do.

Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31
G
OP Offline
G
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31
Originally Posted By: liquidsquid
I chose not to stock LMB for the sake of the frogs. From what I have observed, they do a fair job of eating everything clean. Ponds with LMB around here have very few frogs. Instead I have walleye, perch, and black crappie. They will still eat some frogs when larger (I think) but not like LMB do.


Well that may be a deal killer. I LOVE my frogs and live to hear them sing!

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,315
F
Offline
F
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,315
I am going to throw out the idea of tilapia as something to look into. First you have to find out if they are legal to stock in your area. Then you have to find out (from RAINMAN?) if they will help with the muck. I think it has been mentioned that if you stock the proper amount, they help with reducing the muck. Less muck=less leeches.

Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31
G
OP Offline
G
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 31
Originally Posted By: fish n chips
I am going to throw out the idea of tilapia as something to look into. First you have to find out if they are legal to stock in your area. Then you have to find out (from RAINMAN?) if they will help with the muck. I think it has been mentioned that if you stock the proper amount, they help with reducing the muck. Less muck=less leeches.


Interesting- I know they are raised with bass because they eat the bass poop. I call them "poo fish". I have no idea if they are permissible here. I need to look into that and what it takes to keep them.

Edited to add: they seem to be easier to sex. Maybe I could get a single sex to avoid them breeding out of control. I wonder if they would survive Winter?

Last edited by Greyhound; 09/12/13 09:36 AM. Reason: Addition
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,315
F
Offline
F
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,315
I would think you want them breeding heavily, but perhaps not "out of control". Proper stocking amounts would be needed. Tilapia will not survive over the winter. If they did, then you would have population problems.

They are raised with LMB because they spawn so much it supplies abundant food for them.

They are stocked every spring, which can be costly. As you are finding out, all the alternatives to digging out the muck are usually more costly and require more maintenance. Perhaps some tough choices for you to make. Pond management is sometimes deciding which is the better of two evils....


Last edited by fish n chips; 09/12/13 11:14 AM.
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,099
Likes: 22
R
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Online Content
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame
Lunker
R
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,099
Likes: 22
Originally Posted By: Greyhound
Originally Posted By: fish n chips
I am going to throw out the idea of tilapia as something to look into. First you have to find out if they are legal to stock in your area. Then you have to find out (from RAINMAN?) if they will help with the muck. I think it has been mentioned that if you stock the proper amount, they help with reducing the muck. Less muck=less leeches.


Interesting- I know they are raised with bass because they eat the bass poop. I call them "poo fish". I have no idea if they are permissible here. I need to look into that and what it takes to keep them.

Edited to add: they seem to be easier to sex. Maybe I could get a single sex to avoid them breeding out of control. I wonder if they would survive Winter?


They could never survive the mildest of new England winters, and "breeding out of control" is what you want for muck/algae removal....stockers are just for breeding...the babies do the work.



Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,474
Likes: 264
Originally Posted By: fish n chips
Pond management is sometimes deciding which is the better of two evils....



I would put it this way - Pond management is sometimes deciding which is the better choice of several less than perfect options to reach your goals. It involves not only $ considerations but also possible ranges of effectiveness and risk must be a factor considered.

Last edited by ewest; 10/09/13 05:33 AM.
















Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
Bob Lusk, GaryK, GrizzFan, PhotographerDave
Recent Posts
Happy Birthday Bob Lusk!!
by Rainman - 03/28/24 02:53 AM
Relative weight charts in Excel ? Calculations?
by Mark Dyer - 03/27/24 10:18 PM
Reducing fish biomass
by esshup - 03/27/24 06:17 PM
New 2 acre pond stocking plan
by esshup - 03/27/24 06:05 PM
1 year after stocking question
by esshup - 03/27/24 06:02 PM
Questions and Feedback on SMB
by Donatello - 03/27/24 03:10 PM
Paper-shell crayfish and Japanese snails
by Bill Cody - 03/27/24 10:18 AM
Brooder Shiners and Fry, What to do??
by esshup - 03/27/24 08:47 AM
2024 North Texas Optimal BG food Group Buy
by Dave Davidson1 - 03/27/24 08:15 AM
Dewatering bags seeded to form berms?
by esshup - 03/26/24 10:00 PM
Freeze Danger? - Electric Diaphragm Pump
by esshup - 03/26/24 09:47 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
by Tbar, December 10
Deer at Theo's 2023
Deer at Theo's 2023
by Theo Gallus, November 13
Minnow identification
Minnow identification
by Mike Troyer, October 6
Sharing the Food
Sharing the Food
by FishinRod, September 9
Nice BGxRES
Nice BGxRES
by Theo Gallus, July 28
Snake Identification
Snake Identification
by Rangersedge, July 12

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5