Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations The myth of the superior hybrid bluegill growth

Many of you already know that hybrid bluegill are marketed as faster growing and are claimed to reach larger size. This is not entirely accurate as it depends more on environmental conditions and intraspecies competition, but for some of you that didn't know, I thought I'd post this abstract. I do know this has been discussed before on here, but this little abstract really makes the point. I also found it interesting that female bluegills can grow faster than hybrid bluegills!

Note: I apologize if Eric has already posted this abstract at some point and I missed it.

ABSTRACT

Abstract.—An indicated demand for sunfish (Lepomis spp.) as a food fish remains untested because of continuing inability to efficiently rear these fishes to required large sizes (≥227 g; 0.5 lbs). A recent study involving parallel, indoor rearing of two sunfishes under favorable conditions showed that bluegills Lepomis macrochirus possessed markedly higher growth capacity than B × G hybrids (F1: male bluegill × female green sunfish, Lepomis cyanellus). B × G hybrids had been thought to possess superior growth capacity and so have received more attention than bluegills as a food-fish candidate in many areas of the USA. Reanalysis of data from the recent study with emphasis on gender differences revealed that the male bluegills possessed much higher growth capacity than male B × G hybrids, at least from May to March as Age 1 and then early Age 2 fish. Male bluegills reached 67% of food-market weight within the 10-mo period from a starting weight of 7 g; male B × G hybrids reached only 24% of this weight. Male bluegills' more rapid growth versus male B × G hybrids' apparently involved less growth energy allocation to gonad development. Female bluegills grew slower than male bluegills but also outgrew male and female B × G hybrids whose growth trajectories declined in midsummer (June) and remained largely flat through March. The previous view that B × G hybrids possess higher growth capacity than bluegills was fostered by studies in ponds where bluegill growth can be impeded by high reproduction rates and, as this study reveals, by high densities and exposure to suboptimal temperatures when their growth potential is high. Indoor rearing of male bluegills should ameliorate most pond-related growth impediments and take fuller advantage of their rapid growth capacity.

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118622924/abstract

Good info Cecil... Thanks for posting!

I read that 3 times to get the meat. So, under controlled conditions, a BG will outgrow a HBG in their first 10 months. However does the HBG ever catch up without the super strong sex drive of a BG?

I wish they had also tried the GSF and hope they will keep the study going until both reach marketable size.

Thanks Cecil. Guys while I agree in general and have posted so before don't go to far with this because of its basis "Indoor rearing of male bluegills should ameliorate most pond-related growth impediments". I can show outdoor pond studies with different results.

IMO in ponds HBG grow faster for a short period (few mths)because of their larger mouth and aggressive behavior. Male BG catch up quickly and pass HBG in size and female BG follow. HBG are a tool to use in the right situation ( put and take fishery , where no to little reproduction is wanted or where really aggressive sunfish are wanted [kids pond , fee fishing]). HBG have been shown to be more aggressive and apt to bite than either BG or GSF (their parents).

You are spot on Eric. Yes the hybrids have advantages, are agressive with feed, and have a niche. But since there are so many suppliers out that have it in their customers heads hybrids are superior in every way I thought i would post this.

Ironicially in my region hybrids are pushed so hard by suppliers it's tough to find regular bluegills. I had a local supplier tell me no one wants regular bluegills. I asked him why my phone rings off the hook with people asking where to find regular bluegills. He couldn't answer me.

I agree Cecil (good study post - I like those) and that is why we need to keep putting the info out so fewer pond owners are duped.

My BG outgrew my HBG in the first 3 years. The only advantage to the HBG that I see is that they are more aggressive. So I get the HBG only kiddie pond idea but bluegills are so easy to catch anyway that I think a same sex BG pond would be a close enough match on catch rate with the potential to produce larger fish. IME the HBG wise up to being caught just as fast as BG so there's probably a small window of only a couple of years that a HBG pond would be superior on catch rate and size to a same sex BG pond.

I didn't see a single HBG in my pond after (what I recall was) about 2 1/2 years. They were stocked in equal number with regular BG.

I think another thing that makes HBG easier to catch is the size of their mouth. A larger hook will fit in it easier. A lot of novice fisherman I have seen use hooks too big for BG.

As I have posted here before, and thanks to all of the help I've received from you kind folks, I am currently feeding some 400 HBG in a 3/4 acre pond. I took your advice and lowered the number in the cage to 75, and turned the rest into the open pond. The ones in the cage feed like crazy, and their free swimming brothers and sisters are now showing up at the cage at feeding time to scarf up whatever drifts out of the cage. I've never tried to feed native BG so I don't have a valid comparison, but just by the "seat of the pants" feel, the HBG are tremendously aggressive. I'm catching 5" fish on 2.5" floating Rapala minnows, and they just slam it hard. I haven't sampled any in the cage to check for growth, but after a month they sure look bigger. I caught a couple 9" BG in another pond tonight, so the hybrids definitely have a way to go to keep up with the natives. I will leave the debate over growth potential to those with the experience and expertise to weigh in on such matters. I possess neither. My reason for choosing HBG for this particular pond concerned the low reproductive rate. While I would love to meet Dr. Condello one day, (and shake his hand and ask for an autograph), his technique of selecting male BG only, seems a bit out of reach for the average pond owner. Whilst I can sex bg when they are above 5" or so, most folks I know cannot. Having a low- reproducing fish in the pond just seemed to equate to fewer mouths to feed, hence bigger fish potential. I am aware of the loss of hybrid vigor, but then you're not raising these fish to reproduce. They are not self-sustaining. I'm going to feed em' out, harvest, then re-stock. It's a livestock operation. That's where some hatcheries mislead folks. They are not a "superior BG". They are a different BG. You have to know when they're appropriate, and then manage them to their full potential. Again, I am a novice here, you guys are the pros, I'm just glad you take the time to help me with my problems. I've learned much in my short time here, and don't wish to sound disrespectful to anyone. Especially Dr. Condello, whose fish continually astound and impress me. The results of his hard work speak for themselves. His ability to grow BG is what motivated me to start a feeding program. Thanks again to ALL you guys,I look forward to learning much more.

Good post sprkplug... I think what we have to keep in mind is hybrid BG are just that, a cross between BG and usually GSF. GSF do not reach the size BG do, so one would have to reason a cross between the two would not produce a fish that would grow larger than either parent species. I cannot think of one hybrid that gets larger than either parental species. Tiger musky, wipers, saugeye, tiger trout, they all max out about middle between the two parent species. So one would assume, the maximum length BG get is about 16" and the maximum length GSF get is about 12". So I would say maxumim length HBG would get is about 14"... But a 16" BG is incredibly big as is a 12" GSF.

Sparkplug sounds like you know about HBG very well. Good results are good news. You hit the nail on the head WRT aggressiveness. Hybrid vigor can result in traits in excess of both parental species be it growth , aggressiveness , heart function have all been noted in Lepomis. Problem is that is generally followed by outbreeding depression in the offspring. Here is some info from IMO one of the very top HBG PhD fisheries scientists around.

NorthA merican Journal of Fisherie Msnagemen6t: 156-167, 1986

¸ Copyrighbt y the AmericanF isheriesS ociety1 986

Evaluation of Male Bluegill X Female Green Sunfish Hybrids for

Stocking Mississippi Farm Ponds

MARTIN W. BRUNSON and H. RANDALL ROBINETTE






The use of hybrid sunfishes in ponds has been

suggesteda s an attractive alternative to the more

traditional stocking policies involving the bluegill

(Lepomism acrochirus)o r redears unfish( Lepomis

microlophus), or both, in combination with the

largemouth bass (Micropterus salmoides) (Lewis

and Heidinger 1978a).



Ellison and Heidinger

(1978) surveyed 30 privately owned hybrid

sunfish ponds in southern Illinois and determined

that the presence of largemouth bass and supplemental

feeding were the two most important variables

related to growth of hybrids.



Growth of redear

sunfish x green sunfish and bluegill x green

sunfish (BG x GS) hybrids exceeded the average

growth for bluegill in Illinois (Lopinot 1972). The

BG x GS hybrids reached an acceptable catch size

in a shorter time than channel catfish (Ictalurus

punctatus), and they were easier to catch where

both were stocked for recreational fishing.



Several hybrid combinations have been recognized

as having potential in pond management

(Lewis and Heidinger 1978b), but the BG x GS

hybrid appears to have the most attractive combination

of desirable attributes. Like other hybrids,

the BG x GS hybrid exhibits rapid growth

(Childers 1967; Ellison and Heidinger 1978) and

probable hybrid vigor (Brunson and Robinette

1985), produces mostly males (Childers and Bennett

1961; Laarman 1973; Brunson 1983), and is

highly vulnerable to capture by hook and line

(Henderson and Whiteside 1976; Crandall and

Durocher 1980; Brunson 1983). Only the BG x

GS hybrid, however, is well suited to artificial

feeding (Lewis and Heidinger 1978a) and frequents

shallow water areas, where it may be more

accessiblet o the pond angler than some other hybrids.

The BG x GS hybrid is probably the most

common commercially produced hybrid sunfish

in the southeastern United States.



From an angler's viewpoint, increased growth is

highly desirable.H owever, perhapsm ore important

to the angler is the presumed high catchability of

hybrid sunfish. This vulnerability to hook-andline

capture has been alluded to by many authors

but relatively few experimental data exist to substantiate

such statements. Childers (1967) cited

one instance where a population of more than

10,000 BG x GS hybrids was decimated by anglers

during the first week of fishing. Childers and

Bennett (1967) reported hook-and-line yields in a

0.4-hectare pond stocked with redear x green sunfish

hybrids and largemouth bass that surpassed

those of comparably fished bluegill ponds. They

concluded that hybrids were more aggressive, less

wary, and less able to learn how to avoid being

caught than their parent species. Henderson and

Whiteside (1976) confirmed the vulnerability of

hybrids to angling, and Ellison and Heidinger

(1978) reported that hybrid sunfish were much

easier to catch than channel catfish when both were

stocked for recreational fishing. They also confirmed

the aggressivenesos f hybrid sunfisha s reported

by swimmers who were nipped by these

fish. Crandall and Durocher (1980) reported that

catchability of the BG x GS hybrid was significantly

higher than that ofbluegill x redear sunfish

or green x redear sunfish hybrids.

Other than theses tudies,t he literature on hybrid

sunfishes is the result of laboratory or controlled,

short-term pond studies with relatively narrow objectives.

The total catch of

146 hybrids during the 2-h period was 21% of the

population.



These high catch rates,

especially at Britt Pond, once again confirm the

aggressivenessa nd vulnerability of the BG x GS

hybrid, and point to the importance of strict control

of harvest in hybrid ponds. Especially significant

is the effect that poachers can have on a

hybrid population.



Though hybrid sunfish are not a panacea

for all farm pond management problems, they can

be used under certain conditions to produce desirable

populations of rapidly growing fish. With

a rapid growth rate, low population fecundity, and

high catchability, these fish can be used to create

high quality bream fishing when properly managed

Thanks ewest, lots of good info there, I concur on the issue of aggressiveness versus "catchability", if you will. I have every intention to moniter who fishes in my HBG pond, and try to keep some sort of running tally of the fish removed. I believe, based on my limited interaction with the fish, that it would pose no great problem to over harvest their numbers. I think you have to walk a little finer line with HBG vs. BG, in regards to numbers removed, (caught), and maintaining an adequate number of predators in relation to controlling reproduction and the resulting outbreeding depression. I have to keep reminding myself that I will need to restock the HBG in a few years, so the size, not just the amount, of LMB will also require frequent adjustment. I plan to Keep removing bass as they grow larger than 12", and replacing them with 6". I'm finding it to be quite the balancing act, although very enjoyable. I'm probably going at it all wrong, and I'm sure mother nature will let me know it!

Sounds like a well thought out plan to me. Let us know how things progress.

sprkplug,

Do you an update on this for us?

If I could add something, in my state Kansas the record HBG is larger then both parent species but all the sunfish species are within a few ounces of one another. But I find this just to be a fluke and agree bluegill in perfect conditions will get bigger. Having said that I still like hybrids for there ease to manage and they tend to be more robust like a readear Weres Ur average bluegill arnt so I seem to get thicker fillets off a hybrid wich is great. In my eyes when u grow hybrids u get the robust quality of a readear sunfish but the ability to feed them artificial feed like a bluegill. But this is just my opinion I'm no expert I'm still learning information every day from this wounderfull website.

Just a note to say that if you're really into redear you can get them to eat artificial feed.

Wasn't there a 5 lb plus HBG caught in Georgia?

Anomaly. Ever species had anomalies. It has to happen consistently to say it's a trend.

IIRC, I think there was some lead involved.

Not necessarily. The fish was very robust in appearance.

Wow...this seems like it was so long ago... (For those who read this entire thread, I did get to meet Dr. Condello and shake his hand...still haven't got that autograph though)

I touched on this during the GTG at Esshup's place this summer, but I'll share it again here in the hope that someone mught benefit from it.

When Cecil initially posted this thread, I was a little over one month into my HBG journey. I had been a dedicated BG angler for many years, but had never caught one over 1 lb. I finally decided that my best chance to do so involved growing my own fish. I began researching the various types and strains of BG, but I was attracted to the HBG due to it's severe male bias....I had seen far too many BG ponds overrun with stunted fish, and wanted to avoid that scenario.

When I started the HBG project I set myself a goal that would hopefully define its success, or lack thereof as the case might be: An outing on the water that would produce 25 fish, with 15 of those weighing between 1 and 1.25 lbs., and the remaining 10 weighing no less than 14 ozs.

I achieved that 28 months after the intial stocking of 500 3-4" HBG, and I was blown away. The fish grew so quickly, and were so violent on the end of my line, that I was pretty sure I would always have at least one pond dedicated to growing them.

Since then I have supplementally stocked fish every year, (the ladder stocking technique commonly advocated for HSB), and my largest HBG to date went 1 lb 10ozs. But I have seen two this year, from ponds other than my own, that went 2 lbs. What will they top out at? I don't know, but as time progresses I am discovering that getting them to achieve that size may take more than time and a high protein diet. Many of my largest fish have succumbed over the last two summers, which I feel is due to a combination of factors, including an advancing age, the effects of a high protein diet, stress caused by spawning and high water temps, and susceptability to stresses endured during catch and release.

Am I happy with HBG? Yes. Would I stock them again? Yes. If you're after ultimate growth potential in a BG, then a native "pure"? strain is probably your best bet. If you need forage for another species, or desire a more balanced scenario, then I think natives win again.

But, if you understand the HBG and realize the ups and downs involved with having them in your pond, AND you would like to have numbers of BG over a pound in a short time, with a greatly reduced chance of overpopulation, and very little management effort on your part, then HBG might be worth a closer look.

Sprkplug --

I had completely forgotten about this thread due to my memory and how old this thread is.

You were a real inspiration to me when I built my second pond. The 1-2 inch HBG I put in that pond 15 months ago are now 7-9 inches. They are thick. They are feisty. I've added also added HBG about 12 months ago, and five months ago. I intend one more stocking this year.

To me, they define the term "feeding frenzy". The regular bluegill in my other pond are no where near as aggressive when it comes to feeding or catching.

I have no scientific data to support using HBG vs BG in a pond. I do know that since about late June of this year, my grandkids have had an absolutely great time in the HBG pond. The other pond has become the pond for swimming and using the paddle boat. Every baited hook, whether with a Stubby Steve's pellet or a piece of worm, is attacked within seconds of hitting the water in the HBG pond. This pond has also received two stockings of 4-5 inch channel cats. We are now catching 10-14 inch CC.

My other pond has lots of small/medium bass, lots of bluegill from yolksac to 12 inches, and a number of Channel- and White-Catfish. But, it can take quite some time to pull in any kind of fish from that pond.

In the next couple of weeks, the HBG pond will get stocked with golden trout which we'll feed as long as the water is at a reasonable temperature. I expect the kids and our elderly guests to have a great time with them next spring.

I love the HBG. If they never get over 10 inches, I don't care. There are lots of them, and they bite like crazy, they are fat, they fight hard, and the kids love them.

I'm just not sure where I go from here. I know the HBG did do some reproducing this season. Besides the CC, I added five 5-6 inch SMB to try and keep things in check.

Both of my ponds also got stocked with blue tilapia in July. They have spawned several times, but I think I put in too few, too late in the season.

Next season will be better.

Nice work guys and thanks for the updates. Those really help in back assessing the plans.

Sprkplug u said u achieved 1 pound plus HBG in 28 months after stocking and catmando you said u achieved 7-9 inch fish in 15 months. Both are great growth rates sprkplugs seam a little better but my question is this what food if any was being fed how often how much and what percentage of protein was the food. Your guys results and any information or tips are greatly appreciated and very helpfull for future HBG lovers to set goals for there Hbg ponds.