Pond Boss Forums AQUATIC VEGETATION Controlling unwanted plants Surfactant

Would simple dish soap work as a good enough surfactant for glyphosate on cat tails?

Dish soap is predominantly comprised of "detergent" (and sometimes phosphates), along with a relatively small amount of anionic surfactant to improve the wetting of soiled dishware.
1) It takes a relatively large quantity of dish soap to equal the surfactant-load found in a quality (concentrated) adjuvant that is designed for herbicide-use.
2) Commercial adjuvants are normally non-ionic, versus anionic dish soap. Virtually all herbicides specify the use of non-ionic surfactants for optimum performance.
3) Higher use-rates of dish soap (to offset its lower concentration of surfactant) will guarantee that the second tank-load will "foam-over" (foam exiting through the tank-lid) long before the tank is half-full - unless one uses a additional defoaming agent (PAM sometimes works).
4) Surfactants play a much more important role than simply wetting the leaf-surface; which is comprised of multiple layers of overlapping/waxy platelets (ie. leaf-cuticle). Systemic herbicide spray-depositions must permeate the leaf-cuticle without causing tissue-damage in order for the herbicide to enter the plant's vascular system. With systemic herbicides, damage to the leaf-cuticle may prompt "shock" (shutdown) in the treated plant's metabolism - and impede the herbicide's mode-of-action, which often involves enzyme synthesis disrutpion. In other words, treated leaves may turn brown - but the herbicide was unable to perform its mission, and such plants often survive in the long-run. Same thing happens when one uses too much herbicide (an excessive concentration). Short-term results from the shock-effect may look good, but a quick visual response is often deceiving.

I'll stop boring you with details (finally) and give you my opinion.

Dish soap is probably better than nothing; but is far inferior to a quality commercial surfactant when a herbicide label calls for it.

Hi Kelly, It always amazes me that such a good scientist like yourself takes the time to answer our mundane questions. I personally have benefitted from your expertise two times in the short time I have been a PB member. I really appreciate you and look forward to reading everything you post. Your posts on the water lily problem were amazing. Thanks from all of your readers!

Kelly is a good guy. He once nixed one of my hair brained ideas that could have landed me in the federal pen.

Kelly, another "thanks" from me as well (again)!

What an excellent, sensible and in layman terms explanation! It is so much more helpful when you know how and why things work!

Thanks Kelly!

PS - And as I wanted to mow 'em down first, double the dose, and "bake" it in, this was a good lesson for impatient people like me to pay close(r) attention to "For Best Results"

Keith

Hey Lovnlivn, your PS was exactly what I was thinking about doing. I sure learned a valuable lesson. BOCOMO sent me esshup's formula but I still didn't snap to the importance of it.

Guys - it's a pleasure interacting with this group.
Private ponds represent a small fraction of my business, but they receive the bulk of my personal interest and intrigue.
I learn new stuff on this forum everytime I visit - so it's only appropriate to give back whenever possible.
Ah Dave, yes - I remember it well.
I still think you would've looked dashing in one of those orange uniforms ---- while making many new friends.

What would Eeshup's formula be for 40 percent glyphosate for cat tails ?

That could have have an interesting experience though...

As I asked in the pm, is that 40% specifically labeled for aquatic use? The labels on herbicides aren't guidelines, they are law as Dave alluded to.

Ole Dave would be especially popular if he would get Sue to learn him them twerking moves before relocating.

Early this summer I mixed 1 oz. of 51% glyphosate to one gal. of water with dishwashing surfactant for spraying an experimental 15 x 20 foot section of cattails. The cattails only bent over slightly but nothing happened. A month later I mixed 4 oz. of glyphosate to one gal. of water but without and surfactant and again sprayed. The cattails slowly started to die but a few stayed mostly green, and I figured that was because I didn't have the surfactant to completely wet them. But later on even the partially green ones died also and the area is now completely dead. So far no cattail have grown back. I supposed the real test will be next spring to see if they come back in the sprayed area.

I took this picture early this morning since I didn't have any taken in sunlight.

The label calls for a .75% solution of herbicide, plus .25% surfactant; yet you used a 3% solution of herbicide and no surfactant?
I don't understand! What justifies the "off-labeled" use of 4x the labeled-rate, and ignoring the need for a surfactant?
I sell herbicides; but I also subscribe to the notion of using the least amount of product that is necessary to accomplish any given task. Appropriate surfactants play a critical role in that concept!

I could shave without shaving creme - but I don't!

I am going to follow the Shore Clear and Cygnet instructions to the letter. I just wish I could find a cheaper source for aquatic herbicide than the price I paid. I have found that particular company to be almost two times the price some others are.

Ole Dave was not going to spray plants he was going to nuke pigs. It would have worked but you know how nukes work !!!
I have seen it done and it works like you would not believe but I am shutting up now. I don't like orange suits - I try to keep people out of them.

If you find one, let me know. I deal with that almost every day!

Try pricing Fluridone based herbicides (Sonar AS for an example). OUCH!!

Sounds like thinking on a higher plateau.

This is what I do and I'm not recommending it for anyone else. I am so cheap and it's my pond, in the middle of my farm, and vermed so no water gets out even on my fields. I use a Walmart 51% glyphosate ($9) 4 oz to one gal. of water. One bottle makes about 2 1/2 gal. at 4 oz. and 10 gal. at one oz. So why do I use 4 oz to a gal. If I use a small bottle of dishwashing surfactant ($5) at 3 oz of glyphosate to a gal I gain only 3/4 of a gal for my extra $5, and since I haven’t tested that ratio I don't know if it would work for me. This product isn't for use with water. But three times now I have sprayed in a selected area teaming with frogs and hundreds of minnows around my deck where I am constantly observing wild life and I have never seen any detriment to frogs or minnows. In these kind of decussions before I have been told that the kind of surfactant used is what makes a glyphosate product safe for water, not the glyphosate itself. So If that is the case then 4oz per gal of glyphosate without surfactant is safe. Regardless of whether this is true or not I have not lost any frogs or minnow that were in ground 0 of the spray.

I second following the label. The label rates and additives are based on many scientific experiments and are designed to work the great majority of time under the greatest number of environmental conditions, while maintaining safety to you and the environment.

That would be well worth the price of admission

Good info in this thread. I have been reading up on the different herbicides for my application and proper use.

Not something ya want to redneck your way thru tho.

The Forum is about helping others with their waters. It provides both positive and negative info in hopes of guiding each individual to his/her best choice.

I encourage everyone to participate so we have the collective biggest pool of info from which to draw. Keep in mind every pond is different and what works one place may not be best in another. As a result the more you know the better choices you can make.

In the end we are each entitled (with some limitation) to make our own choice with our land/water. In my many years of dealing with land/water for myself and clients I know that the land is best cared for by individuals with private investment( both $ and soul)in their land. This country was founded and built on that basis. It is the engine of freedom !