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Originally Posted By: woodb01
Originally Posted By: RC51
Hey Wood one question? Do you have a check valve in this line somewhere to stop water from coming back up into the tank? Say if you turned your tank off IE:(no pressure) Or is your tank up high enough where that is not a factor? I know the fusers I use have built in check valves in them to keep the water from coming back up my line just in case.

RC


My compressor is up high enough that is not an issue. Because of the winters here in MN I had planned on putting one in before the first snow however. I wouldn't want the water coming up in the hose.

I'm sure I'll make a few more changes but so far I'm pretty happy with it.


Since the compressor is up high, that will increase the chances of water entering the system, from the comp. itself. I would still add a drop in the line, with a drain or trap. Probably wouldn't hurt anything down south, but up north might be another story.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Originally Posted By: woodb01


2. On the bottom (the weight side), you will want to drill one or two small holes, just a HINT larger than the air holes. This allows the water to escape from the bottom when the pressure comes on after being off a while. That way you don't end up with a nasty water pool in the bottom.



I second Bill Cody's advice about suspending the bubbler off of the bottom, especially if air is being directed out that direction. Having it lay on the bottom might stir up a lot of stuff and cause visibility/turbidity issues.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Well??? Not sure on your bubbler design? I know it's working for ya and seems to be doing good so that's cool, but in most cases you want as many small holes as possible! Think how many small holes are in 1, 9 inch fine bubble diffuser? I think it's like 6,000 or so if I remember right maybe more. The reason for that is for LOTS of small bubbles to create LOTS of lift to move your water through out your water column. It may look like your getting a lot of lift but your not really pushing as much as you think with just 100 or 200 small holes. Not to say it's not working just may not be as effective as an actual diffuser would be.

RC

Last edited by RC51; 08/16/13 12:00 PM.

The only difference between a rut and a Grave is the depth. So get up get out of that rut and get moving!! Time to work!!
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True, bubbles do not always equate to proper aeration.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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I'm sure more small holes would be better. I thought about that quite a bit too. I have a fish tank with a bubbler and under gravel lift so have some idea about the water movement.

My thinking is that even though I could get smaller holes I wanted something that I could clean well at least once a year. Smaller holes would be almost impossible to clean. As for air bubbles, a bit of pressure seems to give pretty small bubbles. They are discharged so quick that they don't have time to "inflate" to any real size. When I back the pressure off and slow it down the bubbles are still fairly small but a bit larger than when it has more pressure.

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Originally Posted By: george1
I have seen "regular" shop type compressors and large pressure tanks on more than one successful hatchery/fish farm.
Must be doing something right. smile
G/


Bet they filter the crap out of the air tho wink

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Well Guy's and Gal's,

One of the formulas I used to verify the info in this thread previously, is incorrect.

I'm messing with some stuff here, and I am saying that this can't be correct! Dang near a perpetual motion machine, and I am going WT?!

It was quite coincidental how the numbers matched, actually really freaky, and the numbers put it within 20 seconds.

Talked to an engineering buddy of mine who is a full time compressed air head laugh wink , and he set me straight! (nice to have engineering buddies)

The real error was in the tad over 4 cfm, which was 4.013. Need to divide that by 14.7, which the "erroneous" formula did not state, thus puts it at 0.27 CFM going to the fusers over an elapsed time of 30 minutes. (14.7 is actually in another part of the equation, but it works on this end)

The time to recharge the tank is also fairly correct at this flow rate. (Quincy, Gardner Denver, and my buddy)

If you want to try get 4CFM out of a compressor like this, on a continuous basis, based on the upper and lower set points, tank volume... it will kick in about every two minutes and run for a minute or so. Don't matter what the pressure is, because you are using volume, and draining it. It will also burn up at this cycle rate!

Based on the numbers, probably not a "3.5HP OUTPUT" compressor either. Gotta watch these non NEMA motor manufacturers that don't fall under any Federal or International Laws with regard to motor nameplate ratings. Probably fired it up when they made it in China and looked at the amp draw on kick in and called it 3.5HP wink

Sorry for any inconvenience!






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JKB - thanks for the math. Informative.


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Yeah Bill,
I plugged the 4cfm scenario into my CH 80 gal compressor (with a real motor)

If I crank it up to 175psi, it will pee out 4cfm for 28 minutes, then the tank is down to 20psi. Compressor kicks in at this point with the light bulb dimming effect at first, then runs for 8.5 minutes to recharge, while eating about 800+ watts of electricity.

You'll also need some fancy hardware and filtration to make this work properly, which will be expensive!

Expensive to set up properly + eats electricity.

I like to use my compressor as a labor saving device, which that is what they are intended for. Don't want to fork that kind of cash over to the electric company, or in repairs, to blow some bubbles in water. crazy

A proper aeration system would be a much better choice.


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Originally Posted By: george1
I have seen "regular" shop type compressors and large pressure tanks on more than one successful hatchery/fish farm.
Must be doing something right. smile
G/


So have I, and they all had one thing in common, a very good oil separator/filter to avoid contaminating the water, with the oil film, that is in the compressed air produced by a "regular" shop type compressor


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My compressor is rated at about 6.5 CFM AT 90 PSI! Now, I have my line pressure cranked DOWN to about 4PSI(I am guessing here because it is not a low pressure regulator). I am making that guess because of the depth of the diffuser at around 7 FT (who knows, maybe it is 6 with all the muck down there?) is what a lot of the commercial pump folks call for.

As for the bleed off, I have no idea how many CFM are contained in a 20 gallon tank, at 125 PSI, dropping down to 80 PSI before recharging. Even though I'm pretty familiar with the stochastic atmospheric pressure at 14.7 PSI.

Haven't had a chance to spend the time, capture a video, and post it on YouTube but I am *happy* with the results and from where I was they are impressive.

==========

On another note, the way I know how this is working is that I actually sat in my garage, with my cell phone (android) stopwatch and timed the compressor run time and time between recharges.

When I first cranked this up, at about a 7 minute recharge time the bubbler was holding the brick off the bottom of the pond and "floating" so I was running WAYYYYYYYyyyy too much air through it.

==========

As for Watt load, the only way anyone will REALLY know is to turn off every freaking thing on a breaker panel EXCEPT the compressor, kick it on, and get the meter start and finish readings.

==========

Sorry if I seem a tad frustrated by the amount of cynicism over something that I can go out to my pond and see the dramatic difference in less than 2 weeks.

Watermeal and Duckweed used to completely swamp the entire pond surface so that you could not see ANY water. Water was black and smelled foul. Could not see more than about 3 -5 inches below the surface. Today, about 1/2 duckweed and watermeal. Foul smell is gone. Yesterday I looked and was shocked that I could actually see about 15 - 18 inches into the water and although a bit of a "tea-like" tint it wasn't black and nasty anymore!

Last edited by woodb01; 08/19/13 05:47 PM.
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<<snipped my previous response>>

My numbers were all way off...

Figuring air volume in a compressed environment is a royal pain...

Last edited by woodb01; 08/20/13 07:42 AM.
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Hi woodb01
If you plow thru this doc./pdf
http://www.putman.net/brands/ps/downloads/ps_compressed_air_articles.pdf

You'l get a fairly deep understanding on the matter
Pay particular attention to page 15, under quote: 9. Pump away at pumps, and 10. Get a clean shot. quote end.

and page 18, under quote : While temperature and dew point are useful air system measurements,the key metrics are pressure, flow and electrical consumption. quote end.

The hole doc. is well worth reading, but the above cover spesifically the risk of poluting the air going in the pond and the higer costs,
in your type of setup.


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"Sorry if I seem a tad frustrated by the amount of cynicism over something that I can go out to my pond and see the dramatic difference in less than 2 weeks."



Wood folks here just want to make sure you have all the facts. I get a lot of this myself with my DIY system as well. So don't worry about it bud. If it's working for you and you can see how good it's working then that's what matters my friend. The one thing I would be concerned about like andedammen says above is contamination of your water. If your good there then rock on!

Oh
P.S. Keep in mind if you do replace your bubbler with an actual fuser your unit may start kicking in more often. As there will be more slits for air to come out of.

RC51


Last edited by RC51; 08/20/13 07:59 AM.

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that is one reason that most aeration systems use oil free compressors

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Originally Posted By: andedammen
Originally Posted By: george1
I have seen "regular" shop type compressors and large pressure tanks on more than one successful hatchery/fish farm.
Must be doing something right. smile
G/


So have I, and they all had one thing in common, a very good oil separator/filter to avoid contaminating the water, with the oil film, that is in the compressed air produced by a "regular" shop type compressor


same reason we dont fill our scuba tanks with "regular" air compressors.

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Originally Posted By: woodb01
As for Watt load, the only way anyone will REALLY know is to turn off every freaking thing on a breaker panel EXCEPT the compressor, kick it on, and get the meter start and finish readings.


Woodb01, you can purchase a Kill-A-Watt energy monitor for around $25. I bought mine about 5 years ago and it will tell you exactly how much each appliance (or air compressor smile ) is costing you to run. I checked about everything that plugs in crazy

Take the cure for runaway electric bills.
Know "Watts" killing you. Connect any appliance to the P3 P4400 Kill A Watt and assess how efficiently that appliance operates. Count consumption by the kilowatt-hour and calculate your electrical expenses by the day, week, month even an entire year.

Very cool little gizmo!

Keith


Keith - Still Lovin Livin

https://youtu.be/o-R41Rfx0k0
(a short video tribute to the PB members we met on our 5 week fishing adventure)

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Originally Posted By: RC51


Oh
P.S. Keep in mind if you do replace your bubbler with an actual fuser your unit may start kicking in more often. As there will be more slits for air to come out of.

RC51



That's not the issue with flow, RC.

I counted 49 holes in one of the pictures. Not knowing the actual size of the hole, but guessing at 1/16" diameter. At 4.5 psi, probably wouldn't have any trouble getting 10cfm out of the rig.

The restriction appears to be the pressure regulator, which is probably not a high flow unit at low pressure.

The differential volume in the 20 gallon tank between 125psi and 80psi is only 8.2 cubic feet.

Wood,
You can easily calculate watts if you know the amps and the volts. Amps x Volts = Watts

It's best to actually measure these values and you can get a decent meter for about 75 bucks.

Paul,
Thanks for the link.

Maybe I am just explaining it wrong.

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I have Central Pneumatic 21 Gallon Air Compressor. Will this be useful for bubble making?

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From what I gathered after reading through this old thread, I would say no.


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Originally Posted By: Shara
I have Central Pneumatic 21 Gallon Air Compressor. Will this be useful for bubble making?



No.

Get a compressor rated for continuous duty. The version you need depends on your water depth and volume. The garage compressor is useful for high pressure low volume, and you want lower pressure, high volume with continuous duty.


Brian

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Your Central Pneumatic 21 Gallon Air Compressor will operate okay for a relatively short life span. You will 'burn it up' fairly quickly. Talk to their tech people. They will tell you no, because they do not build them for periods of long operational use.


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