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Joined: Jun 2008
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Caught this little guy tonight on a dropshot with a waxworm. This is one of this year's stockers, which were 3-4" when they went into a cage in April. This one was 6" and 3.42 ozs this evening, which puts his Wr at just over 130%. I liked his body dynamics, I think he shows promise. This boy came right off the fish truck.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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Joined: Jan 2008
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Chairman, Pond Boss Legacy award; Moderator; field correspondent Lunker
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That's a HBG without much GSF genetic traits visible? Wheres the yellow margin on the pelvic and anal fin?
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
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Nice catch TJ..This is a HBG that I would classify as BG dominant. he will tend to favor the BG's rounded, plate type dynamics rather than the GSF more slender profile. It's been my experience that this type of HBG can sometimes exhibit a superb Wr.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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Hall of Fame Lunker
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As Sprkplug states hybrids don't always exhibit the traits of both parents equally. Many people think a hybrid is always exhibits 50 percent of each parent gene wise, which is not the case. There will be 50/50, 60/40, 40/60, etc. and so on.
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.
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Joined: Jan 2008
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Chairman, Pond Boss Legacy award; Moderator; field correspondent Lunker
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Thanks guys that is valuable knowledge, still, I would have mistakeningly IDed that fish as a BRES rather than a HBG due to zero yellow fin coloration. Was the gape GSF large?
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
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Joined: May 2012
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Wow sprk. How do you figure out the WR?
Last edited by Jwwann; 08/18/13 10:50 AM.
If you ain't gonna fart, why eat the beans? . RES,HBG,YP,HSB,SMB,CC,and FHM. .seasonal trout.
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The mouth may have the gape of a GSF but it is hard for me to tell. The only other GSF characteristics I see are some coloring below the eye.
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Yes, this fish had a larger gape than a BG. As far as the fin coloration goes, I have noticed that on this particular variation of HBG, the yellow/orange fin coloration becomes much more prominent during spawning, and to an extent, as the fish gets older. Jwwann, relative weight, (Wr or RW), is determined by weighing and measuring your fish, then comparing it against a relative weight chart, in order to get some idea of the fish's condition. This is my favorite Wr chart for Bluegill, as it lets me begin checking the condition of my fish at a smaller size. This one is courtesy of Bruce: The length of the fish, in inches, is given in whole numbers along the left edge, while it's further divided into 1/8" increments along the top...My fish was 6" even, which works out to a standard weight of 2.56 ozs. In another example, a fish 8.5" long would have a standard weight of 8.22 ozs.. Once you have the weight of your fish, AND the standard weight from the chart, you divide the weight of your BG by the standard weight, and multiply by 100. That gives you the relative weight. The only problem with this chart, is the fact it only goes to 10", which is a problem if you have larger BG. (Which, in my opinion, is an excellent problem to have) For larger BG, I use the chart from the July/Aug. issue of PondBoss, circa 2006. This was part of a three part article written by Bruce Condello, Bill Cody, and Cecil Baird on raising trophy male BG. It's what got me all excited about managing for big BG, and I think those back issues belong in every BG enthusiasts library.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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Joined: May 2012
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Hall of Fame
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If you ain't gonna fart, why eat the beans? . RES,HBG,YP,HSB,SMB,CC,and FHM. .seasonal trout.
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Here's a trio of gillcrackers (BRES) from our ponds: Notice the lack of blue spotting on the body, and the missing red border around the larger, opercular tab. Green Sunfish, showing the blue spots, and the smaller tab bordered with red. So many variations......
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame Lunker
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That is a very pretty pure GSF. I've been collecting male GSF off their nests from the creek behind our hunting cabin. Trying to do what others are doing with BG, only with GSF. Growing all male GSF should lead to some dandy sized GSF.
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Here's a trio of gillcrackers (BRES) from our ponds: Notice the lack of blue spotting on the body, and the missing red border around the larger, opercular tab. Green Sunfish, showing the blue spots, and the smaller tab bordered with red. So many variations...... Tony, can't tell from these photos - is there a presence of any red/orange on the margins of the opercular flaps on these BRES - even a very faint one?
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
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TJ, some of our BRES display a small red border, and some don't. There's a glare on this photo , so it's hard to tell on these fish.... Here's one that has it:
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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Joined: Jan 2008
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Chairman, Pond Boss Legacy award; Moderator; field correspondent Lunker
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That is still super faint. I wish we collectively had experience comparing BRES with RBG hybrids...wonder if parentage has anything to do with what specific genes are passed along?
My WAG is that we are looking at BRES hybrids - Male BG and Female RES. My simple, non scientific and utterly uninformed reasoning leads me to this conclusion as the opercular tab has very little color, which may suggest female RES characteristics.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
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I follow you...I wonder if general body shape might help determine the bias. Specifically, I think RES have a more streamlined appearance, with a projected nose, compared with a BG and their taller shoulders, and more "blunt" nose. I see BG x RES hybrids both ways, but I never thought to try and correlate the red, or lack thereof, on the opercular flap. I have some photos of BRES, I'll look back through them. Here's one of ours that shows red prominently. Notice that it is more streamlined also.....
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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Joined: Jan 2008
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Chairman, Pond Boss Legacy award; Moderator; field correspondent Lunker
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Interesting, I see what you mean here. Much more pronounced margin and it's more streamlined than the other hybrid photos.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
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I would classify the fish in my last photo as a RES dominant, BG x RES hybrid, while the BG x RES in the other photos I posted appear BG dominant to me.
What I would like to understand better, is how much of a role, if any, the male parent has on deciding the visual bias on a hybrid. Can a MRES x FBG still display a BG dominant appearance?
Also, these hybrids are naturalized in our ponds....I don't have any idea what gen. they are, or even if they've backcrossed.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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Joined: Mar 2005
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Moderator Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
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As far as I know there is no data on how specific alleles line up or pair in the DNA of lepomis. I have some very old gene pics of some but not sure they help much. This may help a little,
Organisms have thousands of genes, and in sexually reproducing organisms these genes generally assort independently of each other. This means that the inheritance of an allele for yellow or green pea color is unrelated to the inheritance of alleles for white or purple flowers. This phenomenon, known as "Mendel's second law" or the "Law of independent assortment", means that the alleles of different genes get shuffled between parents to form offspring with many different combinations. In addition some genes do not assort independently, demonstrating genetic linkage.
Often different genes can interact in a way that influences the same trait. In the Blue-eyed Mary (Omphalodes verna), for example, there exists a gene with alleles that determine the color of flowers: blue or magenta. Another gene, however, controls whether the flowers have color at all or are white. When a plant has two copies of this white allele, its flowers are white—regardless of whether the first gene has blue or magenta alleles. This interaction between genes is called epistasis, with the second gene epistatic to the first.
Many traits are not discrete features (e.g. purple or white flowers) but are instead continuous features (e.g. human height and skin color). These complex traits are products of many genes. The influence of these genes is mediated, to varying degrees, by the environment an organism has experienced. The degree to which an organism's genes contribute to a complex trait is called heritability. Measurement of the heritability of a trait is relative—in a more variable environment, the environment has a bigger influence on the total variation of the trait. For example, human height is a trait with complex causes. It has a heritability of 89% in the United States. In Nigeria, however, where people experience a more variable access to good nutrition and health care, height has a heritability of only 62%.
As you can see genetics is complicated and it is many fold more complicated in hybrids. There is very little info on hybrid genetics in lepomis so all we are doing is making very WAGs here.
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I'm feeling a new found appreciation for those locales that tend to lump all Lepomids under the general term "Brim", or perhaps "Perch".
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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Now that I've had a shower and can think clearly, I realize that there are individuals here on the forum who will be unable to simply refer to all lepomids as perch.....poor devils, I was much the same way before ewest's wretchedly heartbreaking-but-undoubtedly-well-researched post finally made me realize the utter futility of trying to classify these fish with any hope of accuracy. So, in an effort to appease those who feel the need to differentiate the various types of Brim, I will make the following concessions.
Henceforth:
BG, all subspecies, to be referred to as "Regular Brim" GSF, will be "Largemouth Brim" HBG, will be known as "Improved Brim". "Magnum Brim" was a close second. RES, shall assume the name "Gussied up Brim" PS.... In an effort to avoid offending those with delicate sensibilities, I have deliberately avoided any references that might be be deemed socially unacceptable, or politically incorrect.....Instead I will simply go with "Confused Brim".
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1) And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1) Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT? PB answer: It depends.
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Sparky I tried to divide HBG into 2 types in the HBG pic thread. That simple combo attempt (some shaped like BG , some shaped like GSF) seemed to have merit but quickly delved into a big I don't know. In the process I learned just how little was known about lepomis hybrids. Dave Willis and I even made a few calls to the scientists who did some of the genetic research on BG , RES etc and hybrids -- they didn't have any answers either. Looks like we are all in the same boat.
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Lunker
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Sparkie, I think your attempt at redefining Lepomis taxonomy is a noble effort. With many of the strains, your proposal has real merit. However, trying to bring a rigid, logical classification system to any group of individuals that contain a significant proportion of cyanellus genes is not likely to be successful, given the variable but always unfortunate phenotype which they ultimately produce. Therefore, I humbly suggest the following changes:
GSF-Inferior Brim HBG-Degenerated Brim
I admit to being perplexed as to why you consider PS to be potentially "socially unacceptable, or politically incorrect"; could they not be rather "Yankee Gussied Up Brim"?
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Joined: Jan 2008
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Chairman, Pond Boss Legacy award; Moderator; field correspondent Lunker
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Chairman, Pond Boss Legacy award; Moderator; field correspondent Lunker
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Posts: 8,799 Likes: 69 |
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
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Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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Moderated by Bill Cody, Bruce Condello, catmandoo, Chris Steelman, Dave Davidson1, esshup, ewest, FireIsHot, Omaha, Sunil, teehjaeh57
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My First
by x101airborne - 05/04/24 10:21 AM
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