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#347235 08/13/13 10:50 PM
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I put together an "industrial strength" pond bubbler that doesn't use much electricity. It consists of a 3" poly tube with ends and air compressor couplings.

I have a 2 cylinder, 3.5 HP, 20 Gal air compressor. This works SPECTACULAR! The compressor comes on about every 30+ minutes for one minute. Little energy use. The bubbler works spectacularly.

If I could do one thing different the ONLY thing I would do is not drill so many holes. I had WAYYYYyyyy too many holes and had to use electrical tape to plug some up...

Anyway, here it is and it really, really works well... Total investment, if I include the cost of the compressor I *already* owned, is about $350. If you have a good compressor, about $50. However your price will DEFINITELY be different depending on how much air hose and how many fittings you need.

STILL, such a great deal and does a spectacular job!

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How big is the pond? Do you have a picture of the boil?

How many watts does your compressir use when it's running including start up wattage?

With you compressor not rated for continuous use how long do you think it will last?

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 08/13/13 10:59 PM.

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Great questions. Let me try to answer and I will post a picture of the "bubble" tomorrow.

1. How big is the pond, probably about 1/3 of an acre.
2. Compressor watts? No idea, 3.5 HP. I have it on a cheap, Walmart timer that runs a few hours in the evening and early morning. Runs for ONE MINUTE about every 30 minutes (roughly 2x an hour).
3. The compressor will last for years, and years, and years, and years. The compressor might last longer than me!

As for bubble strength, the compressor standard settings are rated at ~ 6 cfm @ 90 psi. The compressor (as most larger compressors do) has an output meter. I'm probably letting it bleed off at about 3 - 4.5 PSI constant (had cfm before, not correct though). The compressor automatically kicks on once it drops to 80 psi until it hits about 125 psi. That takes LITERALLY 1 minute to come up to full pressure. It takes about 30 minutes to bleed off. Cylinders never get hot.

Last edited by woodb01; 08/13/13 11:26 PM.
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I respectfully think you're fooling yourself. And no i don't sell compressors for a living so i don't have a pony in the race.

There's a reason why the compressors that are used for aeration are completely different than the compressor you're using.

Cfm for cfm you're using more watts (which is what you're paying) and your compressor is not designed for continuous use. Sure you're saving money in the short run but losing money in the long run.

I doubt your diffuser can match the performance of a membrane diffuser and self cleaning ability either.


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How deep is the pond, and is your home made diffuser in the deepest part? If not, how far is it below the surface?

Bubbles at the surface just means that there's air going thru it, not necessarily that it's "working".

The only way to tell if it's working is if you can test for dissolved O2 at that depth. You can get an idea by temperature differentiation from top water to bottom water, but the best way to tell is by actually checking for dissolved oxygen levels.


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Thanks Cecil for the feedback. Reality is the compressor I am using is a 2 piston, high output compressor. They use these in construction ALL the time. It is common for them to be in rough environments, heavy use, and run for 20-30 years. Durability is **not** the issue. As for continuous use, there is no need to run constantly.

Energy use? Maybe. Won't dispute that. However, I have the compressor output dialed back far enough that it only comes on about 2x an hour, for ONE minute each time. It goes from its 80psi trigger point back to the 125psi. It has a 20 gallon tank and a pressure regulator on the line. I also have it on a timer so that it comes on in the evening and early in the morning for a couple hours each.

As for a membrane type diffuser, I'm sure you're right. But that would kind of defeat the purpose of a true "DIY" bubbler.

Last edited by woodb01; 08/14/13 07:39 AM.
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The pond is about 7 feet deep and the bubbler is in the deepest part. As for the amount of O2? All I can say is anecdotally the stench from the main body of water is gone.

For the first day I ran it (about a week ago) I had the pressure up too high. Compressor would come on about every 15 minutes and it was creating so much lift that a lot of debris was getting pulled to the surface in the water column created by the "boil". So I dialed it back to where there is a nice, steady, fine bubble stream that "boils" about 12-15" around at the surface.

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You can get reconditioned vacuum pumps to run a aeration system on ebay all day long from 45-75 bucks. I have 2, one is a spare. Paid 110 for 2. Air hose is cheap and I bought 2 diffusers online for less than 20 each. I also have a cheap timer and I run mine about 10 hours a day, 5 around noon and 5 around midnight. I think 350 is high for a DIY setup, especially when using equipment not designed for the task and probably not as efficient in the long run. The point of the aeration system is to turn your pond over and if you are not doing that then the pond can still stratify. That being said I hope your system treats you and your pond right for many years to come.
tz

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One of the reasons you were seeing debris at the surface is the diffuser was siting in the light fluffy muck and lifting it to the surface. Muck was probably deep/thick where you had the bubbler&weight. Bubbler needs to be separated from the muck by height/distance (on a frame) or with it lying on a shield/plate. It wasn't because you were using too much pressure and getting too much lift.

tz makes a good point about turning the pond over. One cannot feasibly and completely turn over a pond using short aeration run times. Short run times with just partial circulation and improper aeration can actually do more long and short term harm than provide benefits.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 08/14/13 08:15 AM.

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I think there is some confusion here.

While there may be reconditioned, continuous run compressors available, my compressor has a 20 gallon tank. It is constantly bleeding off air and the bubble is continuous as long as the air tank has some pressure. The compressor pump only kicks on for about one minute to COMPLETELY fill the 20 gallon tank (from the bubbler continuous flow) about every 30 minutes.

As for the regular, continuous run compressors, when I checked for the size pond I have, and to run the amount of air I need to, the prices I saw were > $1K and some as high as $2.5K.

Do you have a link to the ebay pumps you are referring to? If they are that cheap then of course buying a $300 compressor doesn't make sense (even though I already had mine, and the air hose).

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I think I see what Wood is saying. The pressure in his tank is keeping his bubbler running all the time. As it lets pressure out of his bubbler holes in his fuser his pump then kicks in and at a certain pressure to fill tank back up to keep said bubbler running. So if I get this his pump / compressor comes on in a 24 hour period 48 times for 1 minute each time for a total of 48 minutes run time in a 24 hour period versus runnning a actually air pump 1,440 minutes in a 24 hour period.

At least I think thats what he is saying.... smile


The only difference between a rut and a Grave is the depth. So get up get out of that rut and get moving!! Time to work!!
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Yes sir, you hit the nail on the head. A "regular" air compressor, like the kind used in business or construction, has a large air tank. As the tank pressure drops to a certain point the compressor kicks on.

My particular 2 cylinder compressor can fully recover at the bubbler bleed off rate I'm currently using in 1 minute.

In my case I ran it for 3 days at 24 hours. The foul pond water smell was nearly gone. A bunch of the water meal and duck weed was churned around and seemed to stop growing too. I have now put a Walmart timer on the compressor so it runs for about 3 hours in the evening and 3 hours early in the morning. During that 3 hours it will kick on for ONE minute every 30 minutes. Total run time for the actual compressor is 12 minutes now.

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Interesting Wood! Would love to see a youtube video of this in action!

The only question remains is?

1. How much better would that work with a regular diffuser on it?
2. Cost factor per minutes ran in a month versus a quote "normal Pump"

Pretty cool idea though.

RC


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I don't know how it would work with a regular diffuser. But, I did order a few of the membrane type diffusers. I will hook them up in a couple weeks and see how they work.

As for cost, I really couldn't say. That would be hard to measure. I also know that my rig is not that efficient because of the length of air hose I am running. From my garage (where the air compressor is) to the center of the pond area where the bubbler is, I have about 200' of air hose. I just wanted to try it to see if it would even work. Since it is working I'll probably get a smaller portable compressor with just 2-5 gallon tank(s) and run wiring down near the pond and run that one. I'm not in a hurry right now with it. I just want to get the pond aerated since it has been in such bad shape so long.

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Originally Posted By: woodb01


As for a membrane type diffuser, I'm sure you're right. But that would kind of defeat the purpose of a true "DIY" bubbler.


No problem on feedback and please don't take me as a know it all or being negative. I'm a big DIY fan myself but there are times when DIY doesn't cut it.

Best of luck and keep us posted.


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Please check with a thermometer to see if the pond de-stratifies. If the temp is pretty uniform throughout you may be getting adequate turnover.

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Incorrect formula used.

Last edited by JKB; 08/16/13 01:49 PM.
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do a search on ebay for aerator vacuum pump

Last edited by tz666; 08/15/13 07:00 AM.
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Originally Posted By: tz666
do a search on ebay for aerator vacuum pump


My last score on ebay was HUGE! grin

$0.063 on the dollar for some Shiny New, Factory Sealed, Fancy Gizmos!











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Even though I bought some diffusers and am waiting for them to be shipped, I am still sold on the idea of using a regular air compressor.

You can pick up a small, portable type air compressor for around $100 - $150 at any home improvement store. For that matter you can pick up a used 2 cylinder like I have on Craigslist for around $125 - $200 depending on age and condition.

Unlike the vacuum pumps I looked at, my compressor only runs when there is demand. If there is no demand it does not run at all. It ONLY recharges the pressure tank. It has a 3.5HP motor. It also has a separate line pressure regulator right off the tank. If you wanted you can get them separate and hook up a "T" so you could use the compressor at full pressure (for shop or tools) and have the pressure regulator on the air diffuser side. This provides the best of both worlds.

Also, I see a LOT of people getting started who need / want to know how big a pump they need, how much CFM, how much pressure, etc., etc., etc. This ability to manually control the pressure at nearly any reasonable range seems like it solves that issue. I have no doubt my compressor could run 10 or more commercially available diffusers at fair depths too. Might be a bit of a load but it could support it. Anyway, I had the compressor and figured it solves the problem. For those starting out it might, or might not work. Need to check the cost of air hose and here in MN where it gets REALLY cold in the winter you ONLY want rubber.

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Hey Wood one question? Do you have a check valve in this line somewhere to stop water from coming back up into the tank? Say if you turned your tank off IE:(no pressure) Or is your tank up high enough where that is not a factor? I know the fusers I use have built in check valves in them to keep the water from coming back up my line just in case.

RC

Last edited by RC51; 08/16/13 09:54 AM.

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I wonder if moisture will be an issue? Most bigger, shop type compressors generate a certain amount of water. Perhaps the limited run time would mitigate the effect. Nevertheless, a water trap or drain might be a good idea.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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I have seen "regular" shop type compressors and large pressure tanks on more than one successful hatchery/fish farm.
Must be doing something right. smile
G/



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Original george #173 (22 June 2002)




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Originally Posted By: RC51
Hey Wood one question? Do you have a check valve in this line somewhere to stop water from coming back up into the tank? Say if you turned your tank off IE:(no pressure) Or is your tank up high enough where that is not a factor? I know the fusers I use have built in check valves in them to keep the water from coming back up my line just in case.

RC


My compressor is up high enough that is not an issue. Because of the winters here in MN I had planned on putting one in before the first snow however. I wouldn't want the water coming up in the hose.

I'm sure I'll make a few more changes but so far I'm pretty happy with it.

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A FEW IMPORTANT DETAILS for anyone wanting to do this type of diffuser design:

1. You do NOT want to glue the two PVC caps on the tube. I just put them on really tight and put a small holder screw in. This way once a year I can pull it up, clean it out, remove any algae buildup, etc. Then you can put it back together.

2. On the bottom (the weight side), you will want to drill one or two small holes, just a HINT larger than the air holes. This allows the water to escape from the bottom when the pressure comes on after being off a while. That way you don't end up with a nasty water pool in the bottom.

3. My first pass I drilled WAAAAaaaaayyyyyy too many holes. That is why you see the black electrical tape on it. You only need a small band about 1/4" - 1/2" wide, with just a few small holes in it. I probably still have too many holes now.

4. Make the holes as close to the bottom of the tube as possible. This allows air to stay up in the top of the tube so that it floats off the bottom.

5. I used 3" PVC. If I do another one I would probably use 2" instead of the 3" pipe.

I used a very small, 1/16" drill bit for the air holes. However I used a 3/32" bit for a small relief hole on the bottom where the weight is. That allows any water that gets in to completely evacuate.

Just some design issues to consider if you were to try to do this type of a DIY diffuser.

Overall it seems to be working well and has pretty much a HUGE amount of flexibility in how much pressure I can run through it.

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Originally Posted By: woodb01
Originally Posted By: RC51
Hey Wood one question? Do you have a check valve in this line somewhere to stop water from coming back up into the tank? Say if you turned your tank off IE:(no pressure) Or is your tank up high enough where that is not a factor? I know the fusers I use have built in check valves in them to keep the water from coming back up my line just in case.

RC


My compressor is up high enough that is not an issue. Because of the winters here in MN I had planned on putting one in before the first snow however. I wouldn't want the water coming up in the hose.

I'm sure I'll make a few more changes but so far I'm pretty happy with it.


Since the compressor is up high, that will increase the chances of water entering the system, from the comp. itself. I would still add a drop in the line, with a drain or trap. Probably wouldn't hurt anything down south, but up north might be another story.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Originally Posted By: woodb01


2. On the bottom (the weight side), you will want to drill one or two small holes, just a HINT larger than the air holes. This allows the water to escape from the bottom when the pressure comes on after being off a while. That way you don't end up with a nasty water pool in the bottom.



I second Bill Cody's advice about suspending the bubbler off of the bottom, especially if air is being directed out that direction. Having it lay on the bottom might stir up a lot of stuff and cause visibility/turbidity issues.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Well??? Not sure on your bubbler design? I know it's working for ya and seems to be doing good so that's cool, but in most cases you want as many small holes as possible! Think how many small holes are in 1, 9 inch fine bubble diffuser? I think it's like 6,000 or so if I remember right maybe more. The reason for that is for LOTS of small bubbles to create LOTS of lift to move your water through out your water column. It may look like your getting a lot of lift but your not really pushing as much as you think with just 100 or 200 small holes. Not to say it's not working just may not be as effective as an actual diffuser would be.

RC

Last edited by RC51; 08/16/13 12:00 PM.

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True, bubbles do not always equate to proper aeration.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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I'm sure more small holes would be better. I thought about that quite a bit too. I have a fish tank with a bubbler and under gravel lift so have some idea about the water movement.

My thinking is that even though I could get smaller holes I wanted something that I could clean well at least once a year. Smaller holes would be almost impossible to clean. As for air bubbles, a bit of pressure seems to give pretty small bubbles. They are discharged so quick that they don't have time to "inflate" to any real size. When I back the pressure off and slow it down the bubbles are still fairly small but a bit larger than when it has more pressure.

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Originally Posted By: george1
I have seen "regular" shop type compressors and large pressure tanks on more than one successful hatchery/fish farm.
Must be doing something right. smile
G/


Bet they filter the crap out of the air tho wink

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Well Guy's and Gal's,

One of the formulas I used to verify the info in this thread previously, is incorrect.

I'm messing with some stuff here, and I am saying that this can't be correct! Dang near a perpetual motion machine, and I am going WT?!

It was quite coincidental how the numbers matched, actually really freaky, and the numbers put it within 20 seconds.

Talked to an engineering buddy of mine who is a full time compressed air head laugh wink , and he set me straight! (nice to have engineering buddies)

The real error was in the tad over 4 cfm, which was 4.013. Need to divide that by 14.7, which the "erroneous" formula did not state, thus puts it at 0.27 CFM going to the fusers over an elapsed time of 30 minutes. (14.7 is actually in another part of the equation, but it works on this end)

The time to recharge the tank is also fairly correct at this flow rate. (Quincy, Gardner Denver, and my buddy)

If you want to try get 4CFM out of a compressor like this, on a continuous basis, based on the upper and lower set points, tank volume... it will kick in about every two minutes and run for a minute or so. Don't matter what the pressure is, because you are using volume, and draining it. It will also burn up at this cycle rate!

Based on the numbers, probably not a "3.5HP OUTPUT" compressor either. Gotta watch these non NEMA motor manufacturers that don't fall under any Federal or International Laws with regard to motor nameplate ratings. Probably fired it up when they made it in China and looked at the amp draw on kick in and called it 3.5HP wink

Sorry for any inconvenience!






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JKB - thanks for the math. Informative.


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Yeah Bill,
I plugged the 4cfm scenario into my CH 80 gal compressor (with a real motor)

If I crank it up to 175psi, it will pee out 4cfm for 28 minutes, then the tank is down to 20psi. Compressor kicks in at this point with the light bulb dimming effect at first, then runs for 8.5 minutes to recharge, while eating about 800+ watts of electricity.

You'll also need some fancy hardware and filtration to make this work properly, which will be expensive!

Expensive to set up properly + eats electricity.

I like to use my compressor as a labor saving device, which that is what they are intended for. Don't want to fork that kind of cash over to the electric company, or in repairs, to blow some bubbles in water. crazy

A proper aeration system would be a much better choice.


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Originally Posted By: george1
I have seen "regular" shop type compressors and large pressure tanks on more than one successful hatchery/fish farm.
Must be doing something right. smile
G/


So have I, and they all had one thing in common, a very good oil separator/filter to avoid contaminating the water, with the oil film, that is in the compressed air produced by a "regular" shop type compressor


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My compressor is rated at about 6.5 CFM AT 90 PSI! Now, I have my line pressure cranked DOWN to about 4PSI(I am guessing here because it is not a low pressure regulator). I am making that guess because of the depth of the diffuser at around 7 FT (who knows, maybe it is 6 with all the muck down there?) is what a lot of the commercial pump folks call for.

As for the bleed off, I have no idea how many CFM are contained in a 20 gallon tank, at 125 PSI, dropping down to 80 PSI before recharging. Even though I'm pretty familiar with the stochastic atmospheric pressure at 14.7 PSI.

Haven't had a chance to spend the time, capture a video, and post it on YouTube but I am *happy* with the results and from where I was they are impressive.

==========

On another note, the way I know how this is working is that I actually sat in my garage, with my cell phone (android) stopwatch and timed the compressor run time and time between recharges.

When I first cranked this up, at about a 7 minute recharge time the bubbler was holding the brick off the bottom of the pond and "floating" so I was running WAYYYYYYYyyyy too much air through it.

==========

As for Watt load, the only way anyone will REALLY know is to turn off every freaking thing on a breaker panel EXCEPT the compressor, kick it on, and get the meter start and finish readings.

==========

Sorry if I seem a tad frustrated by the amount of cynicism over something that I can go out to my pond and see the dramatic difference in less than 2 weeks.

Watermeal and Duckweed used to completely swamp the entire pond surface so that you could not see ANY water. Water was black and smelled foul. Could not see more than about 3 -5 inches below the surface. Today, about 1/2 duckweed and watermeal. Foul smell is gone. Yesterday I looked and was shocked that I could actually see about 15 - 18 inches into the water and although a bit of a "tea-like" tint it wasn't black and nasty anymore!

Last edited by woodb01; 08/19/13 05:47 PM.
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<<snipped my previous response>>

My numbers were all way off...

Figuring air volume in a compressed environment is a royal pain...

Last edited by woodb01; 08/20/13 07:42 AM.
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Hi woodb01
If you plow thru this doc./pdf
http://www.putman.net/brands/ps/downloads/ps_compressed_air_articles.pdf

You'l get a fairly deep understanding on the matter
Pay particular attention to page 15, under quote: 9. Pump away at pumps, and 10. Get a clean shot. quote end.

and page 18, under quote : While temperature and dew point are useful air system measurements,the key metrics are pressure, flow and electrical consumption. quote end.

The hole doc. is well worth reading, but the above cover spesifically the risk of poluting the air going in the pond and the higer costs,
in your type of setup.


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"Sorry if I seem a tad frustrated by the amount of cynicism over something that I can go out to my pond and see the dramatic difference in less than 2 weeks."



Wood folks here just want to make sure you have all the facts. I get a lot of this myself with my DIY system as well. So don't worry about it bud. If it's working for you and you can see how good it's working then that's what matters my friend. The one thing I would be concerned about like andedammen says above is contamination of your water. If your good there then rock on!

Oh
P.S. Keep in mind if you do replace your bubbler with an actual fuser your unit may start kicking in more often. As there will be more slits for air to come out of.

RC51


Last edited by RC51; 08/20/13 07:59 AM.

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that is one reason that most aeration systems use oil free compressors

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Originally Posted By: andedammen
Originally Posted By: george1
I have seen "regular" shop type compressors and large pressure tanks on more than one successful hatchery/fish farm.
Must be doing something right. smile
G/


So have I, and they all had one thing in common, a very good oil separator/filter to avoid contaminating the water, with the oil film, that is in the compressed air produced by a "regular" shop type compressor


same reason we dont fill our scuba tanks with "regular" air compressors.

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Originally Posted By: woodb01
As for Watt load, the only way anyone will REALLY know is to turn off every freaking thing on a breaker panel EXCEPT the compressor, kick it on, and get the meter start and finish readings.


Woodb01, you can purchase a Kill-A-Watt energy monitor for around $25. I bought mine about 5 years ago and it will tell you exactly how much each appliance (or air compressor smile ) is costing you to run. I checked about everything that plugs in crazy

Take the cure for runaway electric bills.
Know "Watts" killing you. Connect any appliance to the P3 P4400 Kill A Watt and assess how efficiently that appliance operates. Count consumption by the kilowatt-hour and calculate your electrical expenses by the day, week, month even an entire year.

Very cool little gizmo!

Keith


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https://youtu.be/o-R41Rfx0k0
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Originally Posted By: RC51


Oh
P.S. Keep in mind if you do replace your bubbler with an actual fuser your unit may start kicking in more often. As there will be more slits for air to come out of.

RC51



That's not the issue with flow, RC.

I counted 49 holes in one of the pictures. Not knowing the actual size of the hole, but guessing at 1/16" diameter. At 4.5 psi, probably wouldn't have any trouble getting 10cfm out of the rig.

The restriction appears to be the pressure regulator, which is probably not a high flow unit at low pressure.

The differential volume in the 20 gallon tank between 125psi and 80psi is only 8.2 cubic feet.

Wood,
You can easily calculate watts if you know the amps and the volts. Amps x Volts = Watts

It's best to actually measure these values and you can get a decent meter for about 75 bucks.

Paul,
Thanks for the link.

Maybe I am just explaining it wrong.

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I have Central Pneumatic 21 Gallon Air Compressor. Will this be useful for bubble making?

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From what I gathered after reading through this old thread, I would say no.


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Originally Posted By: Shara
I have Central Pneumatic 21 Gallon Air Compressor. Will this be useful for bubble making?



No.

Get a compressor rated for continuous duty. The version you need depends on your water depth and volume. The garage compressor is useful for high pressure low volume, and you want lower pressure, high volume with continuous duty.


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Your Central Pneumatic 21 Gallon Air Compressor will operate okay for a relatively short life span. You will 'burn it up' fairly quickly. Talk to their tech people. They will tell you no, because they do not build them for periods of long operational use.


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