Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Thoughts on dead BG.....

For the past 6-7 days I have been removing dead HBG from the pond. Never a lot, just 1-2 per day. I pulled out 2 more this evening...naturally, they appear to be some of the largest specimens in the pond. I've never found a LMB, just the HBG, which makes me think it's not so much a matter of water quality by itself....If it were, I would think the 14-15" LMB would perish also.

Actually, I remember this same thing happening last year too. In my opinion it's a combination of things that are causing this. In no particular order:

1) Water temps.....93 degrees on the surface tonight I swam out to the diffuser boil and could tell no difference either....water appears to be well mixed.....all hot.

2) Post spawning stressors.

3) Age of the fish...approx 6-7 years...perhaps this is about all I could expect, given their high protein diet.

4) The afore-mentioned diet. Little to no natural forage, fed to satiation once a day.

5) Catch and release. I fish this pond nearly everyday, and always release the fish. And they surely fight hard... I wonder if the conditons that are detrimental to HSB might come into play here, also?

Visibility tonight was 22", and the fish fed normally for these water temps, and time of year. I'm aerating 24/7...may try switching to after dark only.

I've been at this awhile now, and I accept the fact that fish die. That's the way it is. What troubles me, is I'm not sure I'm getting all that I could be from the fish. How long should they live, given their diet?

Also, and I wonder if it's related, is the condition of the remains.....fish bloat, sure. And it's HOT..but these things look like footballs. I measured one tonight at 4.5" thick. Does a high-protein diet lend itself to producing this effect, or is it just because these are big HBG in the first place?

6-7 years old sounds like it could be getting to the geritol age, but I really don't know.

I think steady diets of feed are not conducive to long term health of fish, in general. Or at least, the effect is not yet known and understood.

The high water temp may push some older fish over the edge.

Just some thoughts.

Thanks Sunil, that's the main question I'm wrestling with....is it time to harvest? It seems so wrong to fillet a BG that weighs a pound and a half, especially after so much time spent encouraging everyone I know who has a pond to practice CPR with those big male BG. But not as wrong as pitching it's carcass over the dam.

I need to get a feel for the life expectancy of the fish, taking into account what I'm doing with them. If this is a temp. glitch, I feel I should try correcting it. But if they truly are coming to the end of their road, then harvest is the answer.

We've got to hear what others have to say. I'm just guessing.

One of our friends was over tonight, and she's a nurse anesthetist.

She said this extra hot weather we've been having has been taking it's toll on the elderly. More strokes, more dehydration, etc. etc.

I too think 6-7 years is a very reasonable expectation for the age when HBG will start to die in large numbers, especially those that are fed a steady diet of pellets.

I think you are seeing some bloating in the fish. There is a lot of unknown though.

I can't believe your diffusers boils are warm.. I swam out to mine the other day and I'm running 90's surface temp and it was easily 60's in my boils, so I went out on a floatie and dropped anchor at the diffuser.. Man that water feels nice..

After my winter fish kill I had a few bluegill left when I restocked with minnows and bluegill. Then came the drought last year and the hot weather. I had about a dozen of the larger bluegill lay at the edge of the pond and die. This was when I had minnows piping for air.

I think your trophy HBG growth-life cycle parallels that of my YP. Fast growth and a high carbohydrate diet causes health problems and a shorter life span. Fatty liver syndrome is just one example. There is a theory that applies to animals who grow fast have shorter life spans i.e. they burn themselves out quickly compared to slower growing individuals consuming healthy diets and not eating as much. IMO 6-7 yrs is about all one can expect for panfish and maybe bass that have been "pushed" with fast growth foods. Southern bass who live in longer growing season habitats do not live as long a bass in the north where the growing season is comparatively short.

Thanks Bill, I'm thinking the same thing. I haven't been able to find much info regarding a diet comprised primarily of high protein feed, and it's possible effects on the lifespan of HBG, but my personal observations thus far may lend credence to the idea of a reduced lifespan as tradeoff for rapid growth.

In addition, Bruce mentioned something to me that has me pondering the possibility of what I'm carefully referring to as "genetic instability" in HBG, and what effects, if any, this may have on lifespan,(compared to native BG) so I wonder if other factors may be in play also.

Either way, it appears changes may be necessary, and I'm working on tweaking my game plan for the future.

There's another theory, that of autophagy, that suggests that periods of caloric and exercise induced stress may be critical for the stimulation of processes that clean up and recycle damaged or dysfunctional intracellular organelles such as mitochondria and ribosomes-and that the absence of these stresses can shorten cellular lifespans and lead to premature cell death and aging. The data is unclear and sometimes contradictory in humans-to say nothing of fish, but this is one of the reasons that prolonged aerobic exercise is thought to be "healthy", at least in people.

Maybe you need to get one of those lap pools with current for your HBG, Sparky. They could rotate in and out for a week at a time.

Yolk Sac's stated "unclear" theory could be applicable to the pellet fed HBG and other fish because I think these pellet fed lazy fish are more sedentary compared to fish that are daily actively foraging for natural foods. However we have to be careful to not assume that the cellular physiology of warm blooded animals (humans-mammals) is the same as cold blooded animals (fish).

Follow up: I haven't fished the HBG pond for a few days, and have found no further morts. Last night, I broke down and fished for a few minutes, catching two that weighed over 1.25 lbs. Tonight, when I went to feed I found them both...one was identified by a clipped fin, the other by a tag. Laying on the bottom in shallow water, recently dead.

Both were hooked in the corner of the mouth, barbless hooks, handled carefully, ( no Yolk, I didn't drop either one), both fought violently, and both swam off when released. Water temp was 85 degrees, visibility 24".

So, I'm thinking there must be a correlation between C&R and these mortalities. Does anyone have any info on the possible effects of C&R on older, larger BG or HBG? Anyone else experienced anything similar?

Haven't experienced this-but certainly makes sense that high temps plus advanced age plus absence of autophagy [just added that for Bill Cody] could make these "elderly" fish vulnerable to a seemingly moderate stress that's just a bit too much for them. Not to draw too much of a parallel with humans, which Bill rightly cautions against, but it sometimes takes just a tiny push to tip the senescent elderly over the edge in humans as well-something as minor as a cold, a bladder infection, even a ride in a convertible in hight 80's degree weather can do it.

Sparkie, I appreciate your sharing of this information. I'm going to file it into the ever growing collection of reasons not to marry a much younger woman, right before "Current Wife Firearm Proficiency" and just after "Viagra: Side Effects and Tachyphylaxis"

And I'm glad you've given up experimenting with the effects of gravity on HBG, and gone back to Fish Whispering in your spare time.

I once bought some bluegills in the 8 inch range from a supplier in Ohio that raised then in a recirculating system. (Bill Cody was with me). Anyway we all found it odd that with a little bit of handling they would roll onto their sides although they looked healthy in all respects. I noticed when I caught them out of the holding pond I had them in I had a similar experience as sprkplug -- even though I used a barbless hook, and brought them right in, didn't even touch them, I would find some dead a day or two later. And these fish were not old fish.

I still say the feed we are using is a high energy diet designed for trout swimming against the current in a raceway, not sedentary fish. Hence the fat that accumulates in their body cavity and potentially shorter lifespans and stamina.

I recently caught about 30 broodstock bluegill out of my hatchery pond to move the males back to the big pond. All laid on their sides in the bucket initially but seemed to be fine once I released them. However I did find a dead on on the bank of the big pond, but that may have been a GBH.

These fish are in the 9 inch range.

BTW the females seemed to not do the side roll thing which may have meant they were in better condition. Perhaps the males were wore out from making and defending beds?

On another note research is showing even fish that normally don't swim against current in their natural setting benefit from having a current to swim against in a tank. It improves their muscle tone and health. The fish from the above RAS did not have a current to swim against. This is another reason why I favor circular tanks with a centripetal flow.

My 2 cents...FWIW
I fished Lake Texoma for 20 years over 100 days per year.
I have pond fished for 10 years.
My cutoff for fishing was 82 degrees water temp - occasional morts on most species unless quickly revived and released.
I use an O2 live well system unless harvest or culling.
G/

Sprkplug, that may be why I see larger panfish examples floating in my pond after fishing in warmer weather and none when fishing is not taking place.

Good observations!