Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Muddy water Sodium Aluminate?

What about using sodium aluminate for settling a pond out? It will pull the PH up as well. Most of the time it is used to settle clay or silica and phosphates. Any floating solid acids will titrate out with it.

Anyone use it or have experience with it with live fish in their pond?

Cheers Don.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=vmkNROg_...ion&f=false

Thoughts? Anyone?

Don.

That hurt my head......Just saying.

Sodium Aluminate is an ORM-B regulated substance and requires a CDL with HazMat endorsement to transport in excess of 10 gallons.

Its concentrated that a little will go along way. Ten gallons of this is a lot.

Cheers Don.

I have never researched it Don, how much does it raise pH? Considering suspended clay is an electrical and magnetic result, what would be the net positive charge gain of 10 gallons diluted into a million of gallons of water? Any adverse effects on aquatic life? what does it degrade into or react with?

??

Gotta look that one up.

I have absolutely no experience with alum but the last two days I've been treating my pond with gypsum to clear the muddy water.

It seems to be working very well yesterday morning I could only see an inch into the water after treating with gypsum today I can see 3 feet into the water I'd say gypsum worked very well for me.

Scott...remember?...the electrical charge on the colloidal clay is negative, so is the soil so the clay particles are magnetically repelled from settling out, or binding together...adding a highly positive charged ion such as aluminum magnetically attracts many negatively charged colloidal clay particles and allows flocking and settling.

Duh, I thought that magnetism only applied to iron. Do you have a solution for an aluminum magnet?

It depends on what the water PH is as well. See you can have allot of suspended mud at a neutral PH. I understand that there is many southern ponds that have a low PH and this is where Sodium aluminate would work better being an alkaline product. When adding it will raise the PH. It can be found at swimming pool suppliers. It is used for drinking water purification as well so it should not harm the fish at all.

What I am getting at is that if more clarity is needed I think a combo of Alum for a few days then a shot if sodium aluminate in stead of Hydrated lime to raise the PH would increase the clarity even more with less product. You would nail the soluble + ions and then the - ions all at once.

See muddy water with a neutral PH or close to it when adding alum your changing the PH. When this happens it reacts to create a very large molecule that is heavy and sinks to the bottom. If you swing the PH up the other way you can bind up the + ions too like pond scum and organics.

Cheers Don.

I have never seen, or heard of any relationship of pH to turbidity. When using Alum and Hydrated lime, the life of the fish and other aquatic organisms are the primary concern with the goal of NOT changing the pH at all while still removing all suspended solids. The Alum becomes and acidic corrosive in solution and the hydrated lime at a 50% ratio is added as a base to the Alum in order to counteract the Alum. in water treatment for drinking water, the death of aquatic organisms is intentional as part of the purification and of course, safety of the water for human consumption in the delivered state.

Hydrated lime on it's own has enough positive ionic charge to turn water gin clear, but also kills nearly all living organisms in the water also.

"Hard" water and a pH at 7.4 (same as fish blood) is ideal. The hardness would hopefully come from calcium and magnesium salts.

Any rapid pH change of more than a couple tenths, up OR down, WILL shock, at least some fish and kill them. If you wanted a more pH neutral, HIGHLY effective flocculant, Aluminum Chlohydrate or Polyaluminum Chloride are the ticket, but also very expensive and regulated for transportation, sales and use in bulk.


Essup...and aluminum magnet? lol Is there a market for them?

Sorry but I whole hardly disagree. When you apply Alum you do not add the hydrated lime to the Alum at the same time then chuck it into the pond right? You put the Alum in first then the Lime correct? You are making the PH swing or you will not get flocculation at all. Because of the massive volume of water the PH swing is enough to titrate out the mud yet not swing the PH a full point.

Try it in a bucket.

See people do not think there is Chlorine in Potash, but how do you get silo gas? If you dissolve potash in a glass of water then swing the PH with acid it will release the chlorine as a gas. In a silo as the corn silage starts to ferment the PH changes and releases the chlorine tied up in the corn plant from when it was fertilized. Silo gas did not start to show up till heavy use of fertilizers.

Same as the muck on the bottom of the pond. Dig some out and check the PH of the muck by placing a strip right into the center of a muck ball. Most of these pellets the de muck a pond just swing the PH of the muck.

Alum has a very very low PH. You can't get the magnetic reaction with out a swing in PH. With out a swing everything is soluble and suspended all the + equal the -'s.

See quick lime if you have calcium carbonate in the water will create a large calcium carbonate atom and make two mols of water, but in order to have calcium carbonate present the PH needs to be a touch high. This is a funny one because your using lime to lower PH. Calcium carbonate can act as a buffer trying to PH balance any solution. 90% of mud in the world has calcium carbonate in it.

Cheers Don.

Guys: Humic acids would be much safer and work just as well. I have been using them in my fish tanks for 20 years and Using them in a pond will seal the pond. I am not sure about the plant life (might make them grow) but the fish will love it. The pH will be locked in at 7.0 and the suspended particles will settle out to the bottom. Loren

Don, mixing alum and hydrated lime makes an excellent paste similar to thick pudding. You can apply the alum first and immediately apply lime BEFORE a pH drop starts....I personally apply both simultaneously using different sprayers and pumps. A sharp pH swing will kill fish fast. I am sorry, but pH has nothing to do with the flocculation itself, but CAN prevent floc is the pH is to low and the metal salt is dissolved....the flocculation action is entirely a function of positively charged molecules being introduced in high enough quantity, and as stated in ewest's fact sheet above, creates a "bridge" for the negatively charged colloidal clay particles to be attracted to, clump, gain weight, then settle out.

Calcium Carbonate (Commonly known as Dolomite or lime stone and if crushed, ag lime) has a pH that tops out at 8.2-8.4 depending on magnesium content, and only reacts with acids to create a "buffering" action and will not lower the pH of basic solutions with a pH in excess of 8.4. Ag Lime is commonly added to ponds in order to raise the pH in acidic waters and can not be over-applied. Calcium Hydroxide (Hydrated Lime) on the other hand, has a pH in excess of 12 in solution.

As you stated, pH drops or rises can indeed cause chemical reactions which are often very unwanted in a pond setting. If Alum were used alone, in a high enough concentration, the pH drop alone, if it goes below 5.4, would cause the aluminum to dissolve and become toxic to the aquatic life also.

When mixing the two you must get heat. There is no way you can mix those two with out them reacting with each other. They both would push off aluminum.

If applying positively charged particles high enough you will get localized PH change or you will not have a positive solution. Sorry physically impossible.

Dolomite lime is Cal-mag Calcium carbonate is "Calcite" the most common element found on earth. This is the biggest misconception about lime. Dolomite lime should only be used if you need magnesium. I personally would never use it on my garden plot and definitely never in my pond. Calcite is a very good buffer pulling PH up and down to 7.2 with out it life on earth would not exist everywhere.

Cheers Don.

Don, I'm not sure what your point is, yet I and every pond manager I know would suggest Ag Lime in a pond built in acidic soil conditions.

While you can do whatever you desire in your ponds/gardens, the goal of this forum is to offer relevant and as accurate as possible information. With that in mind, I will end my participation in this thread by saying when attempting to clear a turbid body of water, there are MANY ways to get that accomplished. IF you do not want to kill fish while clearing said water, you do NOT want to create more than a minor pH change (less than 2 points).

The original question in this thread was..."Anyone use it or have experience with it with live fish in their pond?".....I do not have personal experience with it and have found zero information on it's use in the ponds settings this forum is for. I also added that it is a "restricted and regulated" chemical in quantities of 10 gallons and would therefor be highly impractical to the average reader here due to the special requirements needed for simple legal purchase, procurement and transportation in both Canada and the USA.

"ASSUMING" Sodium Aluminate is safe for fish, since it is used in water treatment, could cost a pond owner years of work and investment. It could even be considered a dangerous assumption since most flocculants and coagulants used for drinking water are filred out and/or removed in the "sludge" created.....

My education is chemical and physics. I thought that for ponds in the south where acidic soil is the norm Sodium Aluminate would be a better alternative to alum and hydrated lime. It has a higher PH and will balance the water will less product.

I on the other hand up in my Township if you dig a hole in the ground and fill it with water you will have a PH of 8 to 8.5 with out adding anything. Just the soil type. Alum worked great and no hydrated lime needed.

Cheers Don.