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#337 - 12/03/03 07:20 PM Increase flow of a spring?
mtnlobster Offline
Member

Registered: 11/20/03
Posts: 65
Loc: Northport,Long Island
Does anybody know if its possible to increase the flow of a free flowing natural spring by digging or some other method? the spring comes up from deep under ground through a shale stratum. the water is a constant 45 degrees year round and the flow remains at a constant 12 gal per min.

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#338 - 12/03/03 09:13 PM Re: Increase flow of a spring?
Dave Davidson Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/22/02
Posts: 1892
Loc: Hurst & Bowie Texas
I have known of people messing up a spring while trying to improve it. You are pumping 17,280 gallons daily. That already sounds like a lot of water.

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#339 - 12/03/03 11:01 PM Re: Increase flow of a spring?
mtnlobster Offline
Member

Registered: 11/20/03
Posts: 65
Loc: Northport,Long Island
hey Dave, yes it is alot ,however not enough for trout. I mean yes a few would be ok i guess but not in any numbers. It would be the greatest thing if there was a way to increase the flow of this spring without ruining it.You would think if the water is flowing up through the ground from that deep .......well its common sense there must be a vast supply of it somewhere down there. Maybe there is a way to channel it through obstructions that slow it down . I dont know.....just wondering if it was feasable

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#340 - 12/03/03 11:01 PM Re: Increase flow of a spring?
mtnlobster Offline
Member

Registered: 11/20/03
Posts: 65
Loc: Northport,Long Island
hey Dave, yes it is alot ,however not enough for trout. I mean yes a few would be ok i guess but not in any numbers. It would be the greatest thing if there was a way to increase the flow of this spring without ruining it.You would think if the water is flowing up through the ground from that deep .......well its common sense there must be a vast supply of it somewhere down there. Maybe there is a way to channel it through obstructions that slow it down . I dont know.....just wondering if it was feasable

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#341 - 12/03/03 11:04 PM Re: Increase flow of a spring?
mtnlobster Offline
Member

Registered: 11/20/03
Posts: 65
Loc: Northport,Long Island
sorry must have hit it twice

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#342 - 12/04/03 06:30 AM Re: Increase flow of a spring?
Dave Davidson Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/22/02
Posts: 1892
Loc: Hurst & Bowie Texas
I love trout but am glad I don't have to worry about them. My response is really over concern about a great water source. I do know one guy who wrecked his spring while trying to improve it.
Heck, my well is measured in gallons per hour and not gallons per minute. It took 3 holes to finally hit water. I get about 12 gallons per hour and have a 2500 gallon holding tank. I salivate over some of the well stories I see here.

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#343 - 12/04/03 10:53 AM Re: Increase flow of a spring?
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 17951
Loc: Northeastern Indiana
Yes, you may be able to increase the flow rate but it all depends on a lot of factors. You may also be able to drill in the vincinity and get a much better flow since you apparently have a confined layer putting pressure on your aquifer.

Your best bet is to consult with a well driller in your area that knows his stuff and not just what so and so says on here. No offense to anyone on here but there are a lot of misconceptions on springs, artesian wells, flowing artesian wells, recharge etc. A good number of wives tale mixed in.

There are maps out there showing where confined layers and potential flowing artesian wells are too. And many times you can even consult with a state geologist at no charge. I found one on the Internet for my area and he was more than happy to answer questions.

I have a friend that raises trout like I do, and he has put in two wells through a confined layer of limestone and gets more than he needs. Each well puts out 500 gallons a minute. Interesting thing is if he moved over just a few feet he would get much less.
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#344 - 12/04/03 03:16 PM Re: Increase flow of a spring?
mtnlobster Offline
Member

Registered: 11/20/03
Posts: 65
Loc: Northport,Long Island
wow! 500 gal a min thats really something!I have a friend in New Hampshire he is a dairy farmer , he also has a rather special ability to find water.he has had this ability for as long as he can remember. Its really quite fascinating .He is a dowser. With an apple stick shaped like a "y"he can find water deep under ground. He has told me stories about it, and he is not one to fabricate. I had heard about this ability before... i spent 7 years in the Adirondacks and i knew one there too. He was 90 years old at the time ,but he still did it back then. He used a willow branch.
Any way, this friend of mine in NH has told me more then once hed come to my proprty and spend some time searching. Im intriuged by the idea of it, yet id hate for him to find a spot , then spend time and money to try to get at the water and come up empty. I think he would feel bad if that happened. what do you guys think of this "dowsing" have you ever heard of it?

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#345 - 12/04/03 04:33 PM Re: Increase flow of a spring?
Chris Shrader Offline
Member

Registered: 08/21/03
Posts: 150
Loc: Southwestern Virginia
mtnlobster, not to offend your friend, but i think your best bet is to stick with what cecil said...talk to a well driller in your area and get him to come to the site. it may even be helpful to get more than one driller to come look over the place.

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#346 - 12/04/03 05:27 PM Re: Increase flow of a spring?
Ric Swaim Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 1902
Loc: Surry Co NC
mtn,
There are always the naysayers & doubters .. doesn't matter. My grandfather was a dowser. He always used a peach tree branch but said pretty much any fruit tree worked. He found water on the last property he bought, went down 27' got 23' of water. He taught me how & I found water on my place but when the well drillers came they moved 50' closer to my house saying they would save me some pipe. Went down 500' only got 1 gpm. Cost me alot of pipe! Now .. they got paid by the foot. Did they know there was no water where they drilled? Dunno.
No one can tell you for sure if opening the spring will work or not. It's your call. Water takes the path of least resistance. Heavy eqp. may move the rock that's blocking it's path back under ground or move the rock that's holding it back. If you consult well drillers they will want to drill .. that's how they make money. If you drill try to stay away from your spring. Always drill at the head of a hollow if possible, that's where you're most likely to find the most water. Just my opinion.
Ric
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If you can read this ... thank a teacher. Since it's in english ... thank our military!
Ric

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#347 - 12/04/03 09:30 PM Re: Increase flow of a spring?
Dave Davidson Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/22/02
Posts: 1892
Loc: Hurst & Bowie Texas
Ric; After my first 2 dry holes, I got a dowser. Had to hunt for one but I actually watched a willow fork break in his hands while pulling down. Now, I tried it but got nothing. When I put my hands on the wood, it didn't work.

He said I had a strong flow. Alas, the strong flow turned into a 1.5 pint per minute well. Now don't get me wrong. I saw him straining and I don't see anyway he could have been faking. And also, maybe that little dribble is a lot on my land. We put a 2,500 gallon holding tank and I don't worry about running out of water (We time my wifes showers by the calendar instead of a clock) but I'm not going to fill any ponds.

Cecil, differences of opinion is why we have horse races. If I were going to mess with a perfectly good spring, I would ask for some assurances in the way of cash bonds from the driller. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for him to put his money where his mouth is.

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#348 - 12/04/03 11:13 PM Re: Increase flow of a spring?
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 17951
Loc: Northeastern Indiana
Actually I believe in science and consulting with an expert, but the friend with the 500 gpm did use a douser and it worked out for him.

He knew the property he had purchased has potential for artesian flowing wells but the first two wells came up dry. Although he was sceptical he decided he didn't have anything to lose and the two spots the douser pointed out worked.

Doesn't mean there isn't any science to it.

As far as opinions you know what they say about them. I'd rather get someone who has expertise in the area. Could be alot cheaper.
_________________________
Age is an issue of mind over matter. If you don't mind, it doesn't matter. Mark Twain







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#349 - 12/05/03 08:00 AM Re: Increase flow of a spring?
Robert B Offline
Member

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 171
Loc: Janesville, Wisconsin
My no brother good in law is a surveyor and they commonly use dousing for finding everthing from electric lines to unmarked graves. All they use is some L shaped pieces of wire and hold the short ends close to body at about chest level or a little lower. I have tried it several times to find our septic or in the past water and gas lines, works every time, the wires will cross and X marks the spot. This being said, i don't know whether I would use this solely for important or dangerous digging.
Robert B

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#350 - 12/05/03 02:24 PM Re: Increase flow of a spring?
mtnlobster Offline
Member

Registered: 11/20/03
Posts: 65
Loc: Northport,Long Island
hey Cecil, was that 500 gal free flowing or did he have to pump it to get at it?

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#351 - 12/05/03 02:27 PM Re: Increase flow of a spring?
mtnlobster Offline
Member

Registered: 11/20/03
Posts: 65
Loc: Northport,Long Island
also,what state was he located in?

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#352 - 12/05/03 03:38 PM Re: Increase flow of a spring?
Cecil Baird1 Offline
Hall of Fame

Lunker

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 17951
Loc: Northeastern Indiana
The trout farm is located in northern Ohio not too far south of Lake Erie.

Yes, he does no pumping whatsoever which is what a free flowing artesian well is. An artesian well has some pressure but a free flowing artesian well has enough pressure from a confined layer that the water shoots out of the well on its own.

I would kill for this on my property as I pay about $100.00 utility costs to run my well at 38 gpm 24/7 from late May to late September. Fortunately I sell my trout to more than make up for the cost. see http://www.ligel.com/~jjbaird/bairdfish2.htm

He does have some hydrogen sulfide (produces a gasy smell when it first comes out of the water and can be toxic to fish), but he takes care of that by dropping it through columns filled with plastic media which also aerates the water. The bad gases get blow off which include nitrogen gas and the water then runs under ground to his raceway building which is also below ground level. All the water flow is by gravity and there is so much some of it some of it has to be diverted into a local stream. Of course once the water runs through the raceways it ends up in the stream also.
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Age is an issue of mind over matter. If you don't mind, it doesn't matter. Mark Twain







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#353 - 12/05/03 03:40 PM Re: Increase flow of a spring?
Cecil Baird1 Offline
Hall of Fame

Lunker

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 17951
Loc: Northeastern Indiana
Whoops! Typo in my web address. It's

http://www.ligtel.com/~jjbaird/bairdfish2.htm
_________________________
Age is an issue of mind over matter. If you don't mind, it doesn't matter. Mark Twain







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#354 - 12/05/03 03:55 PM Re: Increase flow of a spring?
Steve Young Offline
Member

Registered: 07/01/02
Posts: 183
Loc: Grand Rapids, MI
Lobster:

A bigger hole in the shale will probably produce more flow. Cecil's advice regarding professional help is a good one. You could also run the risk of degrading water quality. The general equation governing flow is as follows.

Q=kia

Q = discharge (flow)
k = hydraulic conductivity (permeability)
i = gradient (difference in hydraulic head)
a = cross sectional area (hole in the shale)

Since "i" and "k" are physical properties that you cannot change, that leaves "a". There are too many variables without knowing the hydrogeology of your area to comment much further, but a large diameter well may produce more water. If you want to pump water, that is a different story.

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#355 - 12/05/03 05:14 PM Re: Increase flow of a spring?
mtnlobster Offline
Member

Registered: 11/20/03
Posts: 65
Loc: Northport,Long Island
My spring is a free flowing artesian well bringing up water from some kind of confined aquifer deep underground. its located on rather steep terrain. like i said before it seems to be comming up through some kind of shale layer(the shale after some digging shows up as pieces maybe 1 to 2 inches in length).However right were the main vein is, there seems to be some kind of small irregular somewhat round yet rough, soft stones. they seem to me to be sand stone of some kind .A geologist would probably have a field day at the site.
The funny part about it is ,there are 4 significant springs in the same area maybe 200 feet apart.........and they are all located at almost the exact elavation coming out of the same slope, interesting...
All 4 springs run year round and never dry up, even during years of extreme drought. They all produce almost the identical amount ofwater around 12 gal per min. The water is crystal clear and very cold. The water temp remains constant year round...45 degrees.
Now im not a dowser and dont claim to be one ( its interesting that dowsing seems to run in families, sometimes skipping a generation)...anyway im not a dowser (tried it a few times couldnt get the darn stick to move) yet despite my inadequacy,i have a stange feeling that there is a huge reservoir of crystal clear cool clean water lying somewhere under ground trying to get out beneath those 4 little springs.
I have always been an optimist....

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#356 - 12/05/03 05:28 PM Re: Increase flow of a spring?
mtnlobster Offline
Member

Registered: 11/20/03
Posts: 65
Loc: Northport,Long Island
Cecil i couldnt access your web site im very interested to see how you can grow and sell trout with only 38 gpm water resource. I didnt think that was enough water to get something going. How do you do it, how much trout do you produce yearly?

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#357 - 12/05/03 06:19 PM Re: Increase flow of a spring?
Cecil Baird1 Offline
Hall of Fame

Lunker

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 17951
Loc: Northeastern Indiana
Try my second post. As I indicated I screwed up the first address with a typo. My website is also listed under my profile. Unfortunately I have not yet updated my website for this year although I am shipping out an average of 6 fish a week, but will begin this weekend with pics of trout up to almost 12 lbs.

I posted this before in one of your series of posts but here goes again:

My trout pond that is about 88 by 59 ft., kidney shaped and 9 feet deep the center. It drops off very steeply to keep potential weeds and summer temps down. Consequently surface area is rather low for the depth which keeps temps down. I add 38 gpms of aerated well water (drop by gravity through 4 five gallon buckets filled with plastic media) to the pond from late May to the end of September and aerate in the center with a 1/10 hp compresser and two airstones on the bottom mounted on a tire.

I harvested just over 500 lbs of trout this fall with 4 brooks that would have broken our state record (biggest was 5 lbs 2 oz and only just under 3 years old). Browns went up to almost 12 lbs with 4 over 10 lbs., several over 8 lbs. and most of the browns over 6 lbs. (The browns over 8 lbs were 4 or 5 year olds that were not captured the previous year).

I purchase 1 to 2 lbs male only browns and rainbows every fall and feed them for about 11 months which I harvest primarily by hook and line. I now have 150 male Lake Nipigon strain brooks in the pond with no browns or rainbos (drained and refilled the pond this fall) and will add browns and rainbows next fall. Hope they work out as they are a wild strain and very spooky unlike the domestic strain I got from Virginia last time. They are also quite small at this time at only 4/lb but are 2 year olds. My other brooks average 2 1/2 lbs. at 2 years. Sure hope they catch up!
_________________________
Age is an issue of mind over matter. If you don't mind, it doesn't matter. Mark Twain







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#358 - 12/05/03 06:42 PM Re: Increase flow of a spring?
mtnlobster Offline
Member

Registered: 11/20/03
Posts: 65
Loc: Northport,Long Island
Sorry bout that Cecil, remember seein the site now ..your fish pics were impressive! my guess is your growing fish to obtain size not volume. Your growing system seems ingenious and well thought out! If i cant get my springs to produce any better maybe ill try something like your method.
For now however, those springs are one of my main concerns.

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#359 - 12/06/03 07:55 AM Re: Increase flow of a spring?
Steve Young Offline
Member

Registered: 07/01/02
Posts: 183
Loc: Grand Rapids, MI
Lobster:

Sounds like the springs are formed from overpressured groundwater escaping through relatively higher permeability zones caused by a sandy zone in the shale (path of least resistance). Remember the aquifer is producing the sum flow of springs (was it 36 gpm) and is probably capable of much more. The fact that the springs all produce 12 gpm is more likely due to the relatively uniform hydraulic properties of the sandy zone in the shale, which is leaking water to the surface rather than the actual confined aquifer. The maximum flow possible is controlled by the cross sectional area of the confined aquifer and the head created by the elevation difference between the upland area and your location. If the aquifer is not the limiting factor, your actual flow is dependent on the diameter of the well and it's placement. The help of a professional is advisable for the best results and to make sure that you do not adversely affect other wells or ponds in your area. If I was working on your project, the first thing I would do is obtain water well records from the health department, which would probably give you a good idea of the thickness of the confining unit, the confined aquifer, and the difference in hydraulic head between the upland source area and your location. Get records from all these locations with several from your surrounding area. Best of all, the records will only cost you a few hours of your time and some copying charges. You might be able to get significant flow with the right well installed correctly. Sounds like you have a pretty good handle on it, hope that helps.

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#360 - 12/06/03 08:19 AM Re: Increase flow of a spring?
Steve Young Offline
Member

Registered: 07/01/02
Posts: 183
Loc: Grand Rapids, MI
Cecil, did you end up deepening that pond yourself or did you end up hiring someone?

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#361 - 12/06/03 08:48 AM Re: Increase flow of a spring?
mtnlobster Offline
Member

Registered: 11/20/03
Posts: 65
Loc: Northport,Long Island
Thanks Steve, sounds like sound advice, one thing i neglected to say in my post is the upland area is aprox 500 ft higher then the location of the springs. with that said , the head pressure would be more then sufficiant. 500ft is a minimum the slope continues up after that. id have to get a detailed elevation map to get the exact point of highest elevation. I do know that aprox 500 feet up, there are rather large areas of undeveloped level ground (100 or so acres maybe more).
An interesting dilema, if and when i drill, do i go straight down, angle in, or sideways into the slope? The slope is probably around a 7/12 pitch.

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