Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Selecting a site Increase flow of a spring?

Does anybody know if its possible to increase the flow of a free flowing natural spring by digging or some other method? the spring comes up from deep under ground through a shale stratum. the water is a constant 45 degrees year round and the flow remains at a constant 12 gal per min.

I have known of people messing up a spring while trying to improve it. You are pumping 17,280 gallons daily. That already sounds like a lot of water.

hey Dave, yes it is alot ,however not enough for trout. I mean yes a few would be ok i guess but not in any numbers. It would be the greatest thing if there was a way to increase the flow of this spring without ruining it.You would think if the water is flowing up through the ground from that deep .......well its common sense there must be a vast supply of it somewhere down there. Maybe there is a way to channel it through obstructions that slow it down . I dont know.....just wondering if it was feasable

hey Dave, yes it is alot ,however not enough for trout. I mean yes a few would be ok i guess but not in any numbers. It would be the greatest thing if there was a way to increase the flow of this spring without ruining it.You would think if the water is flowing up through the ground from that deep .......well its common sense there must be a vast supply of it somewhere down there. Maybe there is a way to channel it through obstructions that slow it down . I dont know.....just wondering if it was feasable

sorry must have hit it twice

I love trout but am glad I don't have to worry about them. My response is really over concern about a great water source. I do know one guy who wrecked his spring while trying to improve it.
Heck, my well is measured in gallons per hour and not gallons per minute. It took 3 holes to finally hit water. I get about 12 gallons per hour and have a 2500 gallon holding tank. I salivate over some of the well stories I see here.

Yes, you may be able to increase the flow rate but it all depends on a lot of factors. You may also be able to drill in the vincinity and get a much better flow since you apparently have a confined layer putting pressure on your aquifer.

Your best bet is to consult with a well driller in your area that knows his stuff and not just what so and so says on here. No offense to anyone on here but there are a lot of misconceptions on springs, artesian wells, flowing artesian wells, recharge etc. A good number of wives tale mixed in.

There are maps out there showing where confined layers and potential flowing artesian wells are too. And many times you can even consult with a state geologist at no charge. I found one on the Internet for my area and he was more than happy to answer questions.

I have a friend that raises trout like I do, and he has put in two wells through a confined layer of limestone and gets more than he needs. Each well puts out 500 gallons a minute. Interesting thing is if he moved over just a few feet he would get much less.

wow! 500 gal a min thats really something!I have a friend in New Hampshire he is a dairy farmer , he also has a rather special ability to find water.he has had this ability for as long as he can remember. Its really quite fascinating .He is a dowser. With an apple stick shaped like a "y"he can find water deep under ground. He has told me stories about it, and he is not one to fabricate. I had heard about this ability before... i spent 7 years in the Adirondacks and i knew one there too. He was 90 years old at the time ,but he still did it back then. He used a willow branch.
Any way, this friend of mine in NH has told me more then once hed come to my proprty and spend some time searching. Im intriuged by the idea of it, yet id hate for him to find a spot , then spend time and money to try to get at the water and come up empty. I think he would feel bad if that happened. what do you guys think of this "dowsing" have you ever heard of it?

mtnlobster, not to offend your friend, but i think your best bet is to stick with what cecil said...talk to a well driller in your area and get him to come to the site. it may even be helpful to get more than one driller to come look over the place.

mtn,
There are always the naysayers & doubters .. doesn't matter. My grandfather was a dowser. He always used a peach tree branch but said pretty much any fruit tree worked. He found water on the last property he bought, went down 27' got 23' of water. He taught me how & I found water on my place but when the well drillers came they moved 50' closer to my house saying they would save me some pipe. Went down 500' only got 1 gpm. Cost me alot of pipe! Now .. they got paid by the foot. Did they know there was no water where they drilled? Dunno.
No one can tell you for sure if opening the spring will work or not. It's your call. Water takes the path of least resistance. Heavy eqp. may move the rock that's blocking it's path back under ground or move the rock that's holding it back. If you consult well drillers they will want to drill .. that's how they make money. If you drill try to stay away from your spring. Always drill at the head of a hollow if possible, that's where you're most likely to find the most water. Just my opinion.
Ric

Ric; After my first 2 dry holes, I got a dowser. Had to hunt for one but I actually watched a willow fork break in his hands while pulling down. Now, I tried it but got nothing. When I put my hands on the wood, it didn't work.

He said I had a strong flow. Alas, the strong flow turned into a 1.5 pint per minute well. Now don't get me wrong. I saw him straining and I don't see anyway he could have been faking. And also, maybe that little dribble is a lot on my land. We put a 2,500 gallon holding tank and I don't worry about running out of water (We time my wifes showers by the calendar instead of a clock) but I'm not going to fill any ponds.

Cecil, differences of opinion is why we have horse races. If I were going to mess with a perfectly good spring, I would ask for some assurances in the way of cash bonds from the driller. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for him to put his money where his mouth is.

Actually I believe in science and consulting with an expert, but the friend with the 500 gpm did use a douser and it worked out for him.

He knew the property he had purchased has potential for artesian flowing wells but the first two wells came up dry. Although he was sceptical he decided he didn't have anything to lose and the two spots the douser pointed out worked.

Doesn't mean there isn't any science to it.

As far as opinions you know what they say about them. I'd rather get someone who has expertise in the area. Could be alot cheaper.

My no brother good in law is a surveyor and they commonly use dousing for finding everthing from electric lines to unmarked graves. All they use is some L shaped pieces of wire and hold the short ends close to body at about chest level or a little lower. I have tried it several times to find our septic or in the past water and gas lines, works every time, the wires will cross and X marks the spot. This being said, i don't know whether I would use this solely for important or dangerous digging.
Robert B

hey Cecil, was that 500 gal free flowing or did he have to pump it to get at it?

also,what state was he located in?

The trout farm is located in northern Ohio not too far south of Lake Erie.

Yes, he does no pumping whatsoever which is what a free flowing artesian well is. An artesian well has some pressure but a free flowing artesian well has enough pressure from a confined layer that the water shoots out of the well on its own.

I would kill for this on my property as I pay about $100.00 utility costs to run my well at 38 gpm 24/7 from late May to late September. Fortunately I sell my trout to more than make up for the cost. see http://www.ligel.com/~jjbaird/bairdfish2.htm

He does have some hydrogen sulfide (produces a gasy smell when it first comes out of the water and can be toxic to fish), but he takes care of that by dropping it through columns filled with plastic media which also aerates the water. The bad gases get blow off which include nitrogen gas and the water then runs under ground to his raceway building which is also below ground level. All the water flow is by gravity and there is so much some of it some of it has to be diverted into a local stream. Of course once the water runs through the raceways it ends up in the stream also.

Whoops! Typo in my web address. It's

http://www.ligtel.com/~jjbaird/bairdfish2.htm

Lobster:

A bigger hole in the shale will probably produce more flow. Cecil's advice regarding professional help is a good one. You could also run the risk of degrading water quality. The general equation governing flow is as follows.

Q=kia

Q = discharge (flow)
k = hydraulic conductivity (permeability)
i = gradient (difference in hydraulic head)
a = cross sectional area (hole in the shale)

Since "i" and "k" are physical properties that you cannot change, that leaves "a". There are too many variables without knowing the hydrogeology of your area to comment much further, but a large diameter well may produce more water. If you want to pump water, that is a different story.

My spring is a free flowing artesian well bringing up water from some kind of confined aquifer deep underground. its located on rather steep terrain. like i said before it seems to be comming up through some kind of shale layer(the shale after some digging shows up as pieces maybe 1 to 2 inches in length).However right were the main vein is, there seems to be some kind of small irregular somewhat round yet rough, soft stones. they seem to me to be sand stone of some kind .A geologist would probably have a field day at the site.
The funny part about it is ,there are 4 significant springs in the same area maybe 200 feet apart.........and they are all located at almost the exact elavation coming out of the same slope, interesting...
All 4 springs run year round and never dry up, even during years of extreme drought. They all produce almost the identical amount ofwater around 12 gal per min. The water is crystal clear and very cold. The water temp remains constant year round...45 degrees.
Now im not a dowser and dont claim to be one ( its interesting that dowsing seems to run in families, sometimes skipping a generation)...anyway im not a dowser (tried it a few times couldnt get the darn stick to move) yet despite my inadequacy,i have a stange feeling that there is a huge reservoir of crystal clear cool clean water lying somewhere under ground trying to get out beneath those 4 little springs.
I have always been an optimist....

Cecil i couldnt access your web site im very interested to see how you can grow and sell trout with only 38 gpm water resource. I didnt think that was enough water to get something going. How do you do it, how much trout do you produce yearly?

Try my second post. As I indicated I screwed up the first address with a typo. My website is also listed under my profile. Unfortunately I have not yet updated my website for this year although I am shipping out an average of 6 fish a week, but will begin this weekend with pics of trout up to almost 12 lbs.

I posted this before in one of your series of posts but here goes again:

My trout pond that is about 88 by 59 ft., kidney shaped and 9 feet deep the center. It drops off very steeply to keep potential weeds and summer temps down. Consequently surface area is rather low for the depth which keeps temps down. I add 38 gpms of aerated well water (drop by gravity through 4 five gallon buckets filled with plastic media) to the pond from late May to the end of September and aerate in the center with a 1/10 hp compresser and two airstones on the bottom mounted on a tire.

I harvested just over 500 lbs of trout this fall with 4 brooks that would have broken our state record (biggest was 5 lbs 2 oz and only just under 3 years old). Browns went up to almost 12 lbs with 4 over 10 lbs., several over 8 lbs. and most of the browns over 6 lbs. (The browns over 8 lbs were 4 or 5 year olds that were not captured the previous year).

I purchase 1 to 2 lbs male only browns and rainbows every fall and feed them for about 11 months which I harvest primarily by hook and line. I now have 150 male Lake Nipigon strain brooks in the pond with no browns or rainbos (drained and refilled the pond this fall) and will add browns and rainbows next fall. Hope they work out as they are a wild strain and very spooky unlike the domestic strain I got from Virginia last time. They are also quite small at this time at only 4/lb but are 2 year olds. My other brooks average 2 1/2 lbs. at 2 years. Sure hope they catch up!

Sorry bout that Cecil, remember seein the site now ..your fish pics were impressive! my guess is your growing fish to obtain size not volume. Your growing system seems ingenious and well thought out! If i cant get my springs to produce any better maybe ill try something like your method.
For now however, those springs are one of my main concerns.

Lobster:

Sounds like the springs are formed from overpressured groundwater escaping through relatively higher permeability zones caused by a sandy zone in the shale (path of least resistance). Remember the aquifer is producing the sum flow of springs (was it 36 gpm) and is probably capable of much more. The fact that the springs all produce 12 gpm is more likely due to the relatively uniform hydraulic properties of the sandy zone in the shale, which is leaking water to the surface rather than the actual confined aquifer. The maximum flow possible is controlled by the cross sectional area of the confined aquifer and the head created by the elevation difference between the upland area and your location. If the aquifer is not the limiting factor, your actual flow is dependent on the diameter of the well and it's placement. The help of a professional is advisable for the best results and to make sure that you do not adversely affect other wells or ponds in your area. If I was working on your project, the first thing I would do is obtain water well records from the health department, which would probably give you a good idea of the thickness of the confining unit, the confined aquifer, and the difference in hydraulic head between the upland source area and your location. Get records from all these locations with several from your surrounding area. Best of all, the records will only cost you a few hours of your time and some copying charges. You might be able to get significant flow with the right well installed correctly. Sounds like you have a pretty good handle on it, hope that helps.

Cecil, did you end up deepening that pond yourself or did you end up hiring someone?

Thanks Steve, sounds like sound advice, one thing i neglected to say in my post is the upland area is aprox 500 ft higher then the location of the springs. with that said , the head pressure would be more then sufficiant. 500ft is a minimum the slope continues up after that. id have to get a detailed elevation map to get the exact point of highest elevation. I do know that aprox 500 feet up, there are rather large areas of undeveloped level ground (100 or so acres maybe more).
An interesting dilema, if and when i drill, do i go straight down, angle in, or sideways into the slope? The slope is probably around a 7/12 pitch.

Probably straight down, but that will be determined by the well driller, whatever provides the easiest access and is less expensive. Ultimately, you will be paying by the foot so the shortest distance is best. Here is an article from the USGS, see Figure 5 on page 12. Go through the references and look a few of them up on Google to get a better description of your exact area. You might get lucky and find a study that was done in your backyard. Remember a 2-inch well can produce approximately 20 gpm, so you will most likely be looking at a 4-inch or possibly 6-inch well. Your contact in New York will help there. Good luck.

USGS

Steve thanks for sending that,unfortunatly the area of desrciption is located in New Hampshire. I presently reside on Long Island( hopefully not for much longer) i hope to move up to NH in the near future to be closer to my property up there.
My land is located in nothern New Hampshire aprox 3/4 up the state 15 min from Littleton close to the conneticut river valley.
If you go to "Beaver Pond Woes" below this oridg. post (selecting a site) you will find some pictures that might give you an idea of the type of area im located in. ( its bout as different from Long Island as night and day!) Long Island has grown so crowded i cant stand it anymore. You cant even find land here anymore its basically all developed.
Anyway untill that day i leave here for good , i must travel the 5 hours it takes me to get up there. If you have some time today check out the pics...... i have one shot of the outflow from one of the springs, my choc. lab is in that one too...you would like him!

Steve,

The pond is entirely excavated and although there is some shallow spring seepage at the bottom, all the water that goes in is via a well that has to be pumped. We hit a gravel layer when drilling at about 30 feet and the well is set at 88 feet. Aquifer is typically about 40 feet thick in this area.

Although I have to pump I am fortunate to have an excellent aquifer supply in my area, and in fact, one farmer pumps 2000 gpm when he irrigates. Hard to believe but true. 500 gpms in large diameter wells is not unusual in my area. We even have a double aquifer in some areas.

I don't know about New Hampshire but in my state of Indiana you can get well records on line. All you need to know is township range etc for your area and I was able to print out lots of records of wells of my neighbors which include well depths, composition of layers encountered etc.

You are giving good advice Steve. I would think a local well driller should be up to speed on all the details of his area too.

Sorry about that, I looked at your profile and assumed the pond was near Northport. I didn't think there was 500' of elevation change on Long Island. Looks like an absolutely beautiful place. Was really happy to see the instructions for posting pictures, too.

Cecil, that's a decent hole in the ground. Hopefully you are gaining water from that gravel seam at the bottom and not losing. When you put 30-feet of head on it, things could change from what they are now. It concerns me that seepage hasn't partially filled your tank. Did you patch the gravel or line the pond bottom?

Steve,

I think you misuderstood. The pond is only 9 feet deep and is entirely clay although the banks drops off quite rapidly. It has some seepage at the bottom but not enough to lower the water level much even when the well is not running.

The well itself is about 100 feet uphill and then the water flows through a 4 inch pipe to the trout pond. When I spoke of the gravel layer etc. I was speaking of the well not the pond.

Steve, any idea how i would go about finding ahydrogeological survey for the New Hampshire, or more specific Littleton, New Hampshire area ive been trying to locate something with no luck.
Bill

Cecil,
I'll say it again, I'm glad your back! You add alot to these discussions!
I guess I'm paranoid when it comes to well drillers. I agree with you and also would favor the science. However the drillers around here don't use science. I also believe some people are just naturally good at certain things call it a knack, seat-of-the pants, whatever. If someone, (even a well driller) consistently finds alot of water I'll go with them science or not.
Mtn,
As you noticed I thik Cecil gives good advice. Notice when he advised to drill he said . After you check out the science get your friend to come out & confirm the location. If he finds a better spot, do the science again. Get at least 3 reputable drillers to give their opinion without giving away what the previous one advised.
It sounds like alot of trouble but won't cost you anything until they start drilling and you will be satisfied with the outcome.
Again just my opinion.
Ric

N.H. Department of Environmental Services
Water Division
29 Hazen Drive
P.O. Box 95
Concord, NH 03302-0095
(603) 271-3503
TDD Access: Relay NH 1-800-735-2964

http://www.des.state.nh.us/water_intro.htm

Ask for well drilling logs and if they are available for your area.

Thanks for that Cecil! Im gonna check it out and see what i come up with, should be interesting..

Lobster:

I looked too and did not find anything useful. Ric is right about well drillers. Their job is to install a well then move on to the next one without thinking too much about correlation of geologic units or science. They will not necessarily keep you out of trouble. What they can offer is experience in your area, which may or may not be valuable depending upon how variable the hydrogeologic terrain is in your area. Over the hundreds of drillers that I have worked with, I can remember one that actually had a degree in geology. The state agency, university, or a private consultant would be your best bet. It looks like you are dealing with a fractured bedrock aquifer that probably disharges to the lowland via seeps through permeable zones, which creates streams, etc. in the alluvium and glacial deposits within the valleys. Quite a bit different from the midwest. If you are able to get your hands on the well logs and a good topographic map where you can plot the well log locations email me and I'd be happy to walk you through a couple cross sections.

Cecil, I need to stop responding to posts while trying to watch a basketball game. My Spartans took it on the chin again yesterday.

Thanks Steve! I have had two well diggers look at the site. well, when i say site, they looked at one of the springs. This was last summer, what he told me was " If the spring runs year round chances are we can make it flow more if we drill down"
Now this guy, or one of the guys was in the well drilling buis. for many years but it occured to me that he was a driller not a water finder...you know what i mean? He did say the fact that there was shale there was a good sign. I never checked out his history , but im sure if he went down deep enough he would probably find water....how much? Thats the big question! I decided that my best bet was to research everything before i make any decisions. You guys seem to agree with that. I dont know to how much water (if any more ) i can get out of this area. I would be flabbergasted if i can get 500 gpm , it would change everything about my plans for fish! Water is such a precious resourse! I love the whole aspect of the hunt for more. Its like im lookin for gold!
Thanks again for the help! gotta go outside and do more shovelin.....we got 15 inches of snow here last night!

Lobster:

The comments about the shale being a good sign are probably related to easier drilling through shale versus crystalline bedrock (saves $). The idea that you can increase flow by installing a well is most likely true. The reason to have a professional evaluate the situation is 1)to make sure that you do not throw away drilling costs in case there is not an aquifer that is capable of producing what you need (and to estimate the cost of drilling, i.e, depth); and 2) to make sure that your well will not have an adverse affect on wetlands, other wells, etc. that may be upgradient of your location.

We have 1-inch of ice but no snow, it can hold off until Christmas, too much work to be done.

Hey Dave, where did you get a 2500 gal holding tank for your water? What material is it contsructed from and how much did it cost?

The 2,500 gallon tank was ordered from a well supply house. The driller picked it up and installed it. I'll look for my bill and post the cost when I find it. I've seen quite a few of them in my area, mostly where people are growing flower seedlings to supply to nurseries. It may be becoming a cottage industry here. Seems like a good way to add fertilizer.

Question for all ya'll- have 2.5 acre pond in east tx. i'm meeting with a well driller this week to discuss a well . water is supposed to be second best in the U.S.A. , I have city water but will connect it to the house , but my main purpose is for watering the yard and keeping the pond full . the water is apprx. 280' down. any suggestions on gal. per min.,pump size , pound pressure , holding tank size, but as i understand from reading post's here that well water has no oxygen. any suggestion's on how to get oxygen into the water before it enters the pond. I am not aireating at this time . any advice will be greatly appreaciated , Harvey. sorry i can't help any of you with your problems because i'm kind of new with the pond and all

Harvey,
Two thoughts.
How much land do you want to irrigate? And, what's the maximum amount of water you need to maintain your pond level? Figure out those numbers, then calculate the amount of water you need to accomplish those tasks. Then, you can tell your well driller your needs, and he can advise you about pump size, etc.
To calculate water volume, remember this..one acre one inch deep is 27,000 gallons. So, if you want to irrigate a lawn one inch every third day, and you want to maintain a one acre pond against evaporation loss in the summer, you can calculate water needs.
Second, if you want to add oxygen to well water, break up your well water before it flows into the pond. Some people run it over rocks, others flow across corrugated tin, allow water to spill like a waterfall into the pond. Be creative, and figure out what works best for you.