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#333724 - 05/07/13 10:51 PM Re: How to Make Fish a Regular, Consistent Food Source [Re: Arrow1]
Arrow1 Offline


Registered: 04/20/13
Posts: 13
Loc: North Carolina, US
Bill and Leo, sounds like a great plan for stocking, thanks. I am 340 feet above sea level so I will look into grass shrimp, too.

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#333732 - 05/07/13 11:22 PM Re: How to Make Fish a Regular, Consistent Food Source [Re: Arrow1]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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Registered: 08/08/02
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Flow through it could definitely be done as in with trout. However with a static pond of only 1/8 th acre I have my doubts you wouldn't be dealing with ammonia and nitrite issues even with heavy aeration. If one could pull it off one would be more likely to do so stocking a species that does not reproduce to keep biomass down.
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#333740 - 05/07/13 11:52 PM Re: How to Make Fish a Regular, Consistent Food Source [Re: Bill Cody]
loretta Offline
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Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 561
Loc: MI
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
A pond needs weeds or dense fine structured cover simular to live rood masses for grass shrimp to thrive, perpetuate, and reproduce each year.

Leo- how does one detrmine if corn is a large percent composition of a brand of fish food? Then is corn oil healthy bad or is it the carbohydrates in corn that are problematic? How does canola oil compare to corn oil health wise?


To determine how much corn is in a feed you have to look at the ingredient list. The ingredients are listed in order by weight so the first ingredient is the most abundant. The first 4-5 ingredients make up the bulk of the food. Here's the ingredients for Aquamax 600:

Ingredients: Fish Meal, Soybean Meal, Ground Corn, Poultry Meal, Fish Oil, Wheat Middlings, Hydrolyzed Poultry Feathers, Corn Gluten Meal, Blood Meal, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Menadione Dimethyl pyrimidinol Bisulfate, Choline Chloride, Calcium Pantothenate, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphoshate (source of Vitamin C), Thiiamin MOnonitrate, Biotin, Folic Acid, Cholecalciferol, Riboflavin, nicotinic Acid, Di-Alpha Tocopheryl Acertate, Vitamin A Acetate, Ethoxyquin (A Preservative), Zinc Oxide, Cyanocobalamin, Dl-Motioning, Manganous Oxide, Ferrous Carbonate, Copper Sulfate, Zinc Slufate, Calcium Iodate, Calcium Carbonate, Cabalt Carbonate.

Unfortunately many animal feeds are used to recycle waste from the human food chain. Some of the ingredients are self explanatory and most of the ingredients at the end of the list are added for vitamin and mineral content. Fish meal is a concentrated protein power made from scraps of our fish industry. This fish meal can contain a controversial preservative called ethoxyquin which is used when transporting fish. Additional ethoxyquin is added to this food to preserve it. Fish meal can be made from what's left after fish are cleaned and processed for human consumption (guts, skin and bones) and it can also be from farmed fish which is fed a commercial diet and is lower in Omega 3's. Poultry meal is the same, scraps from chicken processed for human consumption, often low in quality and high in bone (backs and necks). Wheat Middlings are basically sweepings off the floor. Corn gluten meal is a concentrated protein source derived from corn (not gluten at all).

Most of the ingredients are inexpensive low quality sources of protein. Protein's that are animal based are much better assimilated than those that are plant based unless the food is intended for herbivores. A variety of protein sources are used to cover the amino acid profiles needed for the species the food is meant for. All extruded feeds need carbohydrates to form a kibble shape but they aren't very beneficial or nutritional to most carnivore species they are fed to. The extrusion process utilizes high heat that helps break down carbohydrates making them more bio-available.

Here is a simplified explanation of Corn vs. Canola Oil. When speaking about people, we consume way too many omega 6 fatty acids. They are inflammatory and contribute to illness and disease. Omega 3 fatty acids are the good guys, anti-inflammatory. Wikipedia explains this well: "Some medical research suggests that excessive levels of omega-6 fatty acids, relative to omega-3 fatty acids, may increase the probability of a number of diseases and depression. Modern Western diets typically have ratios of omega-6 to omega-3 in excess of 10 to 1, some as high as 30 to 1, partly due to corn oil which has an omega-6 to omega-3 ratio of 49:1. The optimal ratio is thought to be 4 to 1 or lower."
Canola oil has an O-6 to O-3 ratio of 2:1.

What Leo says is true, fish that are fed commercial feeds are not near as healthy to eat as fish that forage for natural food when referring to omega fatty acids.
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#333751 - 05/08/13 01:13 AM Re: How to Make Fish a Regular, Consistent Food Source [Re: Arrow1]
Robert-NJ Offline


Registered: 09/06/12
Posts: 294
Loc: South NJ/Varna Bulgaria
I think if you used catfish and hsb on a put and take basis.Tilapia or bluegill and possibly trout over the winter you could end up quite a bit of fish for the table.This is a real grey area of pond management if you ask me,most here manage for pleasure and sport and this is leaning more towards the aquaculture aspect of things.

One thing I can tell you is you're going to have to do some research and hash out a plan that fits your goals,time and budget.If you want the production from a small area,you'll have to lean towards the farming/aquaculture side,or you can give up some production and have more of a pond so to speak.

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#333756 - 05/08/13 02:41 AM Re: How to Make Fish a Regular, Consistent Food Source [Re: Arrow1]
loretta Offline
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Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 561
Loc: MI
If you want to compare feeds you have to call the company and request they email you a complete nutrient analysis of the food. Since fish require omega 3 fatty acids I think you should see this in the NA (I don't know if O-3 is listed on the bag because I've never bought a bag). A guaranteed analysis is shown on the bag for some components and this is different from the actual nutrient analysis.

You can figure out the carbohydrate content by adding the major components of the food (protein%, fat%, ash%, and moisture%) and subtracting from 100%. Ash content is something that companies don't always want to tell you but it can be significant (ie.10%), a higher Ash content indicates a lower quality food. Moisture will be around 10%.

Note: the protein percent in a NA is crude protein and not digestible protein and you can't distinguish how much of the total protein is attributed to animal sources vs. plant sources. Purina isn't fond of giving out technical information and they will often cop out and say "that's proprietary information" for certain things. (I have never been able to find out ethoxyquin levels from Purina.)

If you have trouble getting a complete Nutrient Analysis from a company there are labs that will analyze a food sample for you if you really want to know.
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#333794 - 05/08/13 10:36 AM Re: How to Make Fish a Regular, Consistent Food Source [Re: Arrow1]
CJBS2003 Offline
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If you aren't picky about what species you're eating, common carp are hard to beat... My father's best friend uses common carp as a major food source of his. When grown in clean waters, they are actually good tasting and not as bony as some think.
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#333809 - 05/08/13 11:06 AM Re: How to Make Fish a Regular, Consistent Food Source [Re: Arrow1]
Bill Cody Online   content
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Loretta - thanks for the good information about oils and fish food ingredients.
Arrow1 has a steep learning curve ahead of him. A producdtion pond and a well managed garden both require quite a bit of work depending on one's goals.


Edited by Bill Cody (05/08/13 11:08 AM)
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#333938 - 05/08/13 09:58 PM Re: How to Make Fish a Regular, Consistent Food Source [Re: CJBS2003]
Robert-NJ Offline


Registered: 09/06/12
Posts: 294
Loc: South NJ/Varna Bulgaria
Originally Posted By: CJBS2003
If you aren't picky about what species you're eating, common carp are hard to beat... My father's best friend uses common carp as a major food source of his. When grown in clean waters, they are actually good tasting and not as bony as some think.



CJ,they are quite crazy about carp in Europe and I must say I was pleasantly surprised when I tried it.The best I've had was called crucian carp (in Bulgarian) that they nicknamed big mouth carp.Being that it was a filter feeder and not a bottom feeder it had a very nice taste and from what I'm told it's similar to the Asian invasive carp we have here in flavor.

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#333944 - 05/08/13 10:24 PM Re: How to Make Fish a Regular, Consistent Food Source [Re: Arrow1]
Dave Davidson1 Offline
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Registered: 01/04/06
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Loc: Hurst & Bowie, Texas
Scott, I agree that he might be able to do it part of the year but not year around. To do it, the stars would have to line up pretty well plus he would likely need aeration and feed.
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#333949 - 05/08/13 11:00 PM Re: How to Make Fish a Regular, Consistent Food Source [Re: Arrow1]
Arrow1 Offline


Registered: 04/20/13
Posts: 13
Loc: North Carolina, US
Yes, I have a steep learning curve which includes understanding what is realistic. I greatly appreciate the collective wisdom and knowledge in this forum.

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#333956 - 05/08/13 11:43 PM Re: How to Make Fish a Regular, Consistent Food Source [Re: Arrow1]
esshup Offline
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Registered: 01/26/09
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Loc: Grovertown, Indiana
Dace, definately aeration and feed. I've found that stocking trout allows you to catch trout all Fall, Winter and Spring until the water warms up temp wise, then the BG/LMB start biting.

I think the pellet trained LMB in my pond are teaching the non-pellet trained LMB to eat pellets. I caught one today that was not tagged, but it was caught on a Stubby Steves orig pellet, #10 hook and 2# test. I'll bet it was pushing 4#.
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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).

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#334042 - 05/09/13 03:12 PM Re: How to Make Fish a Regular, Consistent Food Source [Re: Arrow1]
CJBS2003 Offline
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Could a % of your tags be coming out of your tagged bass Scott?
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#334071 - 05/09/13 05:51 PM Re: How to Make Fish a Regular, Consistent Food Source [Re: CJBS2003]
esshup Offline
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Registered: 01/26/09
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Originally Posted By: CJBS2003
Could a % of your tags be coming out of your tagged bass Scott?


Good question. I'll be targeting the feed trained LMB this year to re-catch them, weigh and measure them. They're tagged with numbered floy tags, so we'll see how many are re-caught.
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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).

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#335991 - 05/23/13 01:44 PM Re: How to Make Fish a Regular, Consistent Food Source [Re: Arrow1]
Arrow1 Offline


Registered: 04/20/13
Posts: 13
Loc: North Carolina, US
As some of you pointed out, my goals are closer to aquaculture. So I am wondering if I could use my 1/8-acre pond to raise only feed fish, such as minnows and/or bluegills and raise my aquaculture fish, such as LMB or perch, in an aquaculture tank. I know that normally people will stock a few LMB with bluegills to keep the BG population in check so they don't become stunted. But as feed fish, would I care if they become stunted? It seems to me that maybe more stunted BGs as feed might be preferable to fewer, larger BGs. Does anyone have any idea how many BGs (albeit stunted BGs) I might expect in a 1/8-acre pond if there are no predators in the pond, they are allowed to reproduce at will, and the pond is fertilized?

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#335992 - 05/23/13 01:48 PM Re: How to Make Fish a Regular, Consistent Food Source [Re: Arrow1]
Arrow1 Offline


Registered: 04/20/13
Posts: 13
Loc: North Carolina, US
... and aerated. I realize it may come down to food availability and ammonia/oxygen levels, but I'm just trying to get a ballpark figure.

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#335996 - 05/23/13 02:11 PM Re: How to Make Fish a Regular, Consistent Food Source [Re: Arrow1]
keith_rowan Offline


Registered: 10/07/10
Posts: 180
Loc: fairport harbor, ohio
i started a small aquaponics system a few years ago,, it grew into filling my basement..i've got an 8' kiddie pool with around 150 fish.. i bought 120 3" yp last spring and most are harvestable.. about 50 tilapia from last year are ready as well..i've been using a mix of aquamax feed, but mostly high protein, supplementing with crayfish, producing several hundred a year easily..tilapia have had a couple of hatches, but only 9 or 10 escaped the yp (and a couple bg) into the sump tank..i've got a smaller setup that i have 150 or so rosy red minnows, but they grow to slow..so they'll be fed to the big tank after the last hatch grows a bit
so my smaller setup will be to start 50 or so at a time, and move them aas they grow
i'm pretty close to my goal of being able to get 1 meal a week from my basement.. just replanted the growbeds after spring cleanout, topping them off with more gravel (i hauled 3+ yards down there!)

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#335998 - 05/23/13 02:34 PM Re: How to Make Fish a Regular, Consistent Food Source [Re: Arrow1]
Arrow1 Offline


Registered: 04/20/13
Posts: 13
Loc: North Carolina, US
Keith, I would like to start aquaponics as well. If your kiddie pool is 3 ft deep, that would be about 1,100 gal which is about 7.5 gal/fish at 150 fish. I've read that you can go up to 3 gal/fish which would be over 350 fish in your pool. Are you limited by grow bed space? So are the yp and tilapia your eating fish and you are feeding them aquamax, crayfish, and minnows?

Unfortunately I don't know much yet about fish. From what I've read, tilapia are the easiest to raise but my impression is the nutritional content is not that great. Bass, perch, and BG from what I can tell are similar nutritionally. People say that BG tastes good so what I don't understand is why bother raising perch or bass which are predatory and therefore more expensive, instead of BG to eat, unless the goal is sport fishing?

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#336010 - 05/23/13 03:44 PM Re: How to Make Fish a Regular, Consistent Food Source [Re: Arrow1]
RC51 Offline
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Registered: 07/06/09
Posts: 4237
Loc: Arkansas
Originally Posted By: Arrow1
I don't understand is why bother raising perch or bass which are predatory and therefore more expensive, instead of BG to eat, unless the goal is sport fishing?


Well one reason right off the top of my head why you would want LMB is because you need something in there to help keep your BG population in check or you will have a bunch of small BG in the 4 inch range. You can't catch enough once they start breeding. The bass are an important part of keeing them BG in check so they too can grow to decent size for eating.

Both these fish. BG and LMB kind of go together. Almost a must if you have one you need the other. You won't need to feed your bass they will eat the BG and should be just fine. You just have to figure out how many bass you need to help control your population.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong!

RC


Edited by RC51 (05/23/13 03:46 PM)
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#336093 - 05/24/13 06:59 AM Re: How to Make Fish a Regular, Consistent Food Source [Re: Arrow1]
Dave Davidson1 Offline
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Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 13600
Loc: Hurst & Bowie, Texas
Without a predator, the BG will overspawn and possibly wind up with an oxygen shortage. You can easily seine a bunch out and do something with them. Aeration will certainly help but you can only get a certain amount of life in any space. It's called biomass.


Edited by Dave Davidson1 (05/24/13 07:01 AM)
_________________________
It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP

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#336122 - 05/24/13 10:32 AM Re: How to Make Fish a Regular, Consistent Food Source [Re: Arrow1]
keith_rowan Offline


Registered: 10/07/10
Posts: 180
Loc: fairport harbor, ohio
the bottom of the tank is 8', the top is closer to 6', it holds about 700 gallons..i base my fish load on the amount of filtration i have... i'll be adding to the filtration this year (following cecil's threads closely!) and should be able to bump my stock up to around 200 fish safely.
i've got my airpump hooked up to a UPS battery in case the lights go out.. still working on beefing up the batteries..
tilapia need warm water.. i was lucky to get mine through the winter, the water got into the 40's.. only lost 3 or 4..before i started a heater up in the basement.
i like that the yp and bg keep the tilpia in check... i can set up a breeder tank for more tilapia if needed..and the crayfish i'm using have been multiplying (i would say breeding, but marmokrebs don't breed.. they are parthenogenetic) like crazy.. i've put 40 or so larger crays into the pool (as well as a couple hundred small ones that got eaten pretty quickly)
regarding nutrition.. what you get out of an ap system will entirely depend on what you put into it (nutrient wise) - i have noticed that my farm raised perch seem to be a little bit "fattier", but taste delish

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