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Originally Posted By: Bluegillerkiller
He might have been referring to the fish part of that comment Zep, not sure that just kinda how I took it..


But it's already been shown that US commercial catfish farms in Miss. (and possibly Texas per Kelly Duffie) have and do sometimes use Karmex in their ponds. One would think many US restaurants and US grocery stores are buying catfish from US catfish farms in Tx & Miss.


Fishing has never been about the fish....

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Just to balance things a bit - think where we would be without chemicals. Likely about 2/3 of us would not be here. Starvation and other natural processes can easily take out man or greatly reduce the population.
















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Originally Posted By: Kelly Duffie
GAR: I would love to see that local co-op manager's face if an inspector for your state dept of agriculture walked into his store and asked for the person who was recommending diuron for aquatic treatments; or your farmer-friend's face for that matter.
I can assure you, their smug attitudes and winking smirks would disappear in a heartbeat.
I'm betting that the farmer would never contaminate his crop with a non-labeled pesticide: which begs the question, why would he do otherwise with his own pond - or encourage his neighbor to commit the same blunder. Evidently, he considers himself smarter than an impressive number of highly educated research chemists and environmental toxicologists.
To paraphrase an old Will Roger's quote: -That which we don't know rarely gets us into as much trouble as what we know, that simply ain't so.-

Bill: Interesting analogy, and quite accurate.


The farmer who recommended Karmex has since moved.

I no longer deal with the store I 1st purchased Karmex from. He never mentioned any law about using it in water even though I told him I would use it to kill algae in my pond. When I asked how to apply it he said to spread it "like you would feed chickens". I did; but unfortunately on a windy day. Some of the Karmex power blew onto the grass near the pond's edge & killed patches of grass where the Karnex power hit! I couldn't grow grass in those areas until I dug out & replaced the top soil.

I bought Duiron 80 from a different store the next year but didn't mention how I was going to use it until this year. That's when clerk immediately told me it was illegal to use in ponds. No problem, but it got me wondering why farmers could use it, etc & to post on this forum.

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Originally Posted By: ewest
Just to balance things a bit - think where we would be without chemicals. Likely about 2/3 of us would not be here. Starvation and other natural processes can easily take out man or greatly reduce the population.


very true eric


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Originally Posted By: ewest
Just to balance things a bit - think where we would be without chemicals. Likely about 2/3 of us would not be here. Starvation and other natural processes can easily take out man or greatly reduce the population.
Eric: It goes without saying (I hope) that I'm a strong proponent for the legal, appropriate and judicious use of pesticides - especially since they represent my livelihood.
Because of that; and since I'm fully aware of what it now costs to bring a new product to market – as well as the battles that my industry faces with "anti's", I'm very sensitive to any and all pesticides-abuses, which are often used to slam the entire industry when things go wrong.
Example: Chlordane. Widely abused in the 70s-80s as an ant mound & exposed ground treatment - which led to environmental/water contamination issues that probably would not have occurred had chlordane’s uses been confined to sub-slab termite treatments (as per label).
As a result of chlordane’s abuse, besides the environmental issues, we now get to treat our homes and structures at least once every 5 years for termites, with much less effective insecticides – instead of one time with chlordane (with its 40-year half-life).

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Kelly, 2 years ago I cleaned out my grandmothers basement. You wouldn't believe what I found (well, you probably would).

Clordane, DDT, etc. One can is marked Bug Pizen (not a typo). I'll take a pic tomorrow after I get back from Mi. delivering fish. Camera is in the truck and I'm beat.


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The rep from Applied Biochemist, makers of Cutrine-Plus, recommended 14oz per 1 gallon in my sprayer. Early last week I ordered Cutrine-Plus online + a separate sprayer for it. It finally came in & I tried some yesterday & have some early results. Everywhere the sprayer could reach is browned out - perhaps 10% of the algae.

For those who have used Cutrine-Plus, will the dead algae sink to the bottom or does it need to be racked out?

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I haven't been raking mine out, but I suppose it may be best if you do.

Course if we're gonna rake it all out, maybe we didn't even need the Cutrine Plus?

I'm too lazy and it's getting way too hot in Texas for me to be raking it out.


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Originally Posted By: GARoss
For those who have used Cutrine-Plus, will the dead algae sink to the bottom or does it need to be racked out?
Ideally, one would rake out (or otherwise physically remove) as much FA as possible before treating - if so inclined - and relocate it (after it dries out) beyond the pond's watershed - and then treat any remaining patches of FA with Cutrine. By using this approach, the nutrients bound within the algae are removed from the pond - and the need for and usage of CUTRINE is reduced. That's a win-win scenario.
In your present situation, physically removing the dead algae at this point will accomplish only one of the mentioned benefits. However, if you leave it undisturbed, it will eventually sink once the FA's bouyancy-inducing bubbles become dislodged; at which point, the release of nutrients from the decomposing algae will likely spawn a new generation of FA from ever-present spores.

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This morning I noticed the un-sprayed algae didn't look as bright green as it did before spraying.

I'll rake it out.

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Originally Posted By: GARoss
This morning I noticed the un-sprayed algae didn't look as bright green as it did before spraying.

I'll rake it out.


A combination of rain & busyness prevented me from raking out the dead algae but not to worry - the algae is gone! It sank to the bottom! Three days is all it took & I only spray about 20% of the algae to do it. Nice to know there are products that are environmentally safe!

Thanks to all for the great advice you shared.

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I have been reading these posts, and I am surprised no one has mentioned that Canada allows the use of Karmex in ponds, or that Miss. has recommended the use in catfish ponds since 2005
as seen in this:
Herbicides approved to fight pond algae
Jun 13, 2005 Delta Farm Press
EMAIL
INSHARE



COMMENTS 5
Mississippi Agriculture Commissioner Lester Spell recently announced his department has received approval from the United States Environmental Protection Agency for an emergency exemption on the herbicides Direx 4L and Karmex DF (both diuron) to control blue-green algae in catfish ponds.

“Our effort to make these diuron products available as pond management tools is vital to the health of our catfish industry as it gives producers the needed tools for controlling blue-green algae, a primary cause of off-flavor,” Spell said.

Mississippi catfish producers must balance their need to control blue-green algae with the desire to preserve pond plants that provide oxygen and keep water clean.

Several copper-based algaecides registered for use in catfish ponds are non-selective and have the potential to kill both beneficial plants and non-beneficial plants in ponds.

Direx 4L and Karmex DF are selective herbicides and target the primary pest plants responsible for off-flavor. The species of blue-green algae responsible for significant off-flavor problems in catfish is

Oscillatoria chalybea. This species releases a chemical compound known as MIB (2-methylisoborned) into the water.

Catfish absorb MIB into their bloodstream as water passes through their gills. The compound is transported by the blood and deposited into the flesh of the fish.

Low concentrations of MIB produce a musty-to-muddy off-flavor color, which inhibits the marketability of the fish.

Producers incur considerable costs holding affected catfish in ponds for several weeks until the fish purge the compound from their bodies.

The department has authority under Section 18 of the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide and Rodenticide Act to obtain an emergency exemption for a non-labeled use of a pesticide if significant losses of an agricultural commodity are likely and alternative, registered products are not available or effective.

The department administers the provisions of emergency exemptions through the Bureau of Plant Industry.

Catfish producers with questions can call the bureau toll-free at 888-257-1285.

I do have friends that use this, a little goes a long way, and have had no problem with it. It is not legal, but there you go.


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Not legal, is the problem.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Plus without instructions on the bag for dosage, one is guessing how much to use and very likely they are adding too much which results in too much chemical that ruins the food chain for the pond. Plus the excess chemical in the pond will be toxic to people using and animals including dogs drinking the water.

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MS and TX both issued Section 18 "emergency use exemptions" for specific diuron formations; but ONLY for use in "commercial" catfish and striped bass production operations, and ONLY at the rate of 1/2-oz per acre-foot of water to control Giosmin (a specific algae that causes "muddy" off-flavor in catfish. The emergency-use exemption also allowed a maximum ANNUAL dosage of 4.5 oz of product per acre-foot.

The Section 18 emergency exemption DID NOT apply to private, recreational fishing, livestock or ornamental ponds (or any pond from which I will knowingly consume the fish).

I'm unsure if either Section 18 remains in effect today. Regardless, I personally declined many opportunities to sell diuron into that sector since I wanted no involvement in the matter - especially 10, 15 or 20 years down the road.

I've heard through the industry that there were several compelling reasons why DuPont (the original patent-holder) never pursued a Federal registration for diuron's use in aquatics - which, by the way, did NOT include the lack of potential profitability. I'll leave it at that.

Let's just say that when something threatens a major state-industry, that industry and their affiliated lobbyists may elect to use political leverage to secure a remedy.

Bottom line: There's a huge difference between EPA "pesticide registrations" and "Section 18 Emergency-Use Exemptions" - and that difference usually involves a shortfall in supportive data for the non-registered product's proposed "emergency use".

Lastly, please cite where you read that Canada allows the use of diuron in ponds. That revelation would utterly astonish me.

=====
Originally Posted By: Funky
I have been reading these posts, and I am surprised no one has mentioned that Canada allows the use of Karmex in ponds, or that Miss. has recommended the use in catfish ponds since 2005, as seen in this:
Jun 13, 2005 Delta Farm Press
COMMENTS 5
Mississippi Agriculture Commissioner Lester Spell recently announced his department has received approval from the United States Environmental Protection Agency for an emergency exemption on the herbicides Direx 4L and Karmex DF (both diuron) to control blue-green algae in catfish ponds.

“Our effort to make these diuron products available as pond management tools is vital to the health of our catfish industry as it gives producers the needed tools for controlling blue-green algae, a primary cause of off-flavor,” Spell said.

Mississippi catfish producers must balance their need to control blue-green algae with the desire to preserve pond plants that provide oxygen and keep water clean.

Several copper-based algaecides registered for use in catfish ponds are non-selective and have the potential to kill both beneficial plants and non-beneficial plants in ponds.

Direx 4L and Karmex DF are selective herbicides and target the primary pest plants responsible for off-flavor. The species of blue-green algae responsible for significant off-flavor problems in catfish is

Oscillatoria chalybea. This species releases a chemical compound known as MIB (2-methylisoborned) into the water.

Catfish absorb MIB into their bloodstream as water passes through their gills. The compound is transported by the blood and deposited into the flesh of the fish.

Low concentrations of MIB produce a musty-to-muddy off-flavor color, which inhibits the marketability of the fish.

Producers incur considerable costs holding affected catfish in ponds for several weeks until the fish purge the compound from their bodies.

The department has authority under Section 18 of the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide and Rodenticide Act to obtain an emergency exemption for a non-labeled useof a pesticide if significant losses of an agricultural commodity are likely and alternative, registered products are not available or effective.

The department administers the provisions of emergency exemptions through the Bureau of Plant Industry.

Catfish producers with questions can call the bureau toll-free at 888-257-1285.

I do have friends that use this, a little goes a long way, and have had no problem with it. It is not legal, but there you go.

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Funky...Texas got an exemption and allowed Karmex
for awhile in bass ponds less than ten years ago.

http://farmprogress.com/story-tda-gets-exemption-for-diuron-use-for-algae-in-bass-ponds-9-11986


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Originally Posted By: Kelly Duffie
Lastly, please cite where you read that Canada allows the use of diuron in ponds. That revelation would utterly astonish me.

This from Canada but looks to be ten years old:



FOR CONTROL OF ALGAE AND AQUATIC WEEDS
IN PONDS AND DUGOUTS—

"KARMEX® XP is recommended for the control of algae, including filamentous types, and certain aquatic weeds in ponds and dugouts which have little or no water flow-through. For use in water wholly confined to the property of the user, and where there is no outflow beyond the property limits. Treatment is not effective in flowing water. The lower recommended rates control algae for several weeks; higher use rates extend algae control and usually control aquatic weeds such as naiads (Najas), pondweed (Potamogeton), duckweed (Lemna), bladderwort (Utricularia), and Chara. Use at rates of 0.5 to 2 parts per million (ppm) diuron; use the lower rates for algae control and the higher rates for aquatic weeds and for extended algae control"

http://www.tlmltd.ca/assets/pdf/KarmexXP_Label_Eng.pdf


Fishing has never been about the fish....

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To this old farm boy that stuff sounds more scary than a pic of Bob O. in a pink speedo! I would not want it on my property! eek


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Whether is was 10, 15 or 20 years ago, I'm floored that it was actually labeled in Canada. I never knew that!!
Do you know how many aquatic herbicides are registered in Canada today? ONE! That being REWARD (diquat).
Canada is one of the most restrictive places in the world to register aquatic pesticides; which might explain why I'm so surprised to see a Canadian aquatic diuron label.
I'm running this past my Bayer rep for further comment (Bayer bought DuPont's pesticide division around 18-months ago).
Thanks for the link Zep! Although it still doesn't change my personal opinion concerning the use of diuron in aquatics smile
KD

Originally Posted By: Zep
[quote=Kelly Duffie]Lastly, please cite where you read that Canada allows the use of diuron in ponds. That revelation would utterly astonish me.

This from Canada but looks to be ten years old:



FOR CONTROL OF ALGAE AND AQUATIC WEEDS
IN PONDS AND DUGOUTS—

"KARMEX® XP is recommended for the control of algae, including filamentous types, and certain aquatic weeds in ponds and dugouts which have little or no water flow-through. For use in water wholly confined to the property of the user, and where there is no outflow beyond the property limits. Treatment is not effective in flowing water. The lower recommended rates control algae for several weeks; higher use rates extend algae control and usually control aquatic weeds such as naiads (Najas), pondweed (Potamogeton), duckweed (Lemna), bladderwort (Utricularia), and Chara. Use at rates of 0.5 to 2 parts per million (ppm) diuron; use the lower rates for algae control and the higher rates for aquatic weeds and for extended algae control"

http://www.tlmltd.ca/assets/pdf/KarmexXP_Label_Eng.pdf [/quote
]

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Kelly, thank you for weighing in with your expertise.


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Kelly....it looks like they updated the info because
this 2015 Canada info sheet advises against use in ponds.

Canada Karmex




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Zep, I use an insecticide that targets Japanese Beetle grubs in grassy areas that has Durion as a listed ingredient. I have to stay 50' away from the pond edge when applying it.

I actually stay 50' away from where the slope starts going to the pond, so it is closer to 60-75 feet from the waters edge.


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