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#334995 - 05/16/13 12:40 PM [SOLVED] Why wouldn't using Karmex be OK under ...
GARoss Offline


Registered: 05/16/13
Posts: 9
Loc: Michigan, USA
Hi everyone! I'm George & this is my 1st post here.

I have a question but the info I've read here isn't specific to my conditions, so, I thought I'd post.

We have a pond only because we needed soil to fill around our new built retirement home in Michigan. We really didn't want a pond because I don't fish & we didn't want to spend our retirement cutting cattails & raking algae out of it which we did the first few years. But, we need back fill so we wound up with one.

The pond is bean shaped, roughly 150' x 90' & 15' at the deepest. The pond is 100% rain water feed; no streams feed into the pond & overflow only drains in the spring. In the late summer the water level falls several feet.

The soil dug out for the pond was grey clay. Nothing would grow in areas where this clay is spread around the house. We needed topsoil brought in just get to grow grass. And because the pond soil is clay based, I doubt if anything seeps very deep into it.

A few years ago I mentioned to a local farmer that we spent a few days cutting cattails & raking algae. He laughed & recommended Karmex (Diuron 80), that he used it all the time. The local co-op who sold it said with my conditions (a clay based pond where no water was flowing into or out of it) was OK.

When I 1st used it, it was windy & some did get on the grass as a powder. It killed grass everywhere it touched. I had to shovel those areas out & replace the soil & grow new grass. Since then, I have mixed in water, then splashed it into the pond. I also learned to wait until the pond stops draining (late May) before using Karmex, so, water treated with Karmex never flows out of the pond.

I guess my question is why wouldn't using Karmex be OK under my conditions? My pond is clay based. Grass isn't dying near the pond. Trees nearby are fine, nothing is dying. Unlike my farmer neighbors who spray their fields with Karmex, which is eventually washed into the great lakes nearby, my pond water stays on my property.

So, why wouldn't using Karmex be OK?


Edited by GARoss (05/29/13 08:55 AM)

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#334999 - 05/16/13 01:24 PM Re: Why wouldn't using Karmex be OK under my condition [Re: GARoss]
Bluegillerkiller Offline
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Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 3536
Loc: Illinois, St. louis area
Any fish in the pond? And eventually it will kill trees that feed from the pond.. I've seen it kill many trees.. I think copper based herbicide and algaecide would be better for you..
_________________________
I believe in catch and release. I catch then release to the grease..

BG. CSBG. LMB. HSB. RES.


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#335005 - 05/16/13 02:02 PM Re: Why wouldn't using Karmex be OK under my condition [Re: GARoss]
Ted Lea FOREVERGREEN Offline
Lunker

Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 969
Loc: NA
Very simple answer, there is no label for your particular use, with the label being the law it makes your application illegal.All ponds leak to some degree so its going somewhere.

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#335009 - 05/16/13 02:21 PM Re: Why wouldn't using Karmex be OK under my condition [Re: Bluegillerkiller]
GARoss Offline


Registered: 05/16/13
Posts: 9
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: Bluegillerkiller
Any fish in the pond? And eventually it will kill trees that feed from the pond.. I've seen it kill many trees.. I think copper based herbicide and algaecide would be better for you..


Thanks.

No fish. Our property didn't have a tree on it until we moved in & we have planted 65 large trees, some shade, spruces & pines. There are white pines recently planted about 30' from the pond. There's a linden near the pond as well with no signs of problems.

My only objective is for my pond to be free of algae & cattails. Is there a particular copper based herbicide and algaecide you'd recommend?

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#335010 - 05/16/13 02:44 PM Re: Why wouldn't using Karmex be OK under my condition [Re: Ted Lea FOREVERGREEN]
GARoss Offline


Registered: 05/16/13
Posts: 9
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: Ted Lea FOREVERGREEN
Very simple answer, there is no label for your particular use, with the label being the law it makes your application illegal.All ponds leak to some degree so its going somewhere.


1st, the pond is there because I put it there.

2nd, this isn't a "natural" pond, as I have pointed out. Only rain water & snow melt flows into it. Only in the early spring does anything flow out & then it flows about 200' to an accumulation area, never moving from there.

3rd, I learned recently that it was illegal & have not used the product since. But algae is coming back so I need to do something.

What I don't understand is how tons of this product can be sprayed legally. Eventually it rains & washes into somewhere other than where it's intended. Certainly my using a 4# bag illegally in a contained area is dwarfed tons used legally.

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#335018 - 05/16/13 03:31 PM Re: Why wouldn't using Karmex be OK under my condition [Re: GARoss]
Zep Offline
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Registered: 07/27/10
Posts: 3089
Loc: Dallas & Wills Point, Tx
Originally Posted By: GARoss
What I don't understand is how tons of this product can be sprayed legally. Eventually it rains & washes into somewhere other than where it's intended. Certainly my using a 4# bag illegally in a contained area is dwarfed by tons used legally.


I've wondered the same thing GARoss.

In fact I've heard all the horror stories about it, causes cancer..ect. Then I read where Mississippi actually got a waiver from the EPA to use Karmex to control algae in catfish ponds that raise catfish for human consumption. Go figure!

http://deltafarmpress.com/livestock/herbicides-approved-fight-pond-algae

Our caretaker last fall used Karmex without our permission and made our pond practically as clean as a swimming pool when it was filled with algae and aqautic vegetation. We told him to never do that again. Luckily we did not suffer a fish kill because he used very small amounts. And this spring our pond is filled with bluegill and lots other fish. Appears healthy as ever. We dont eat fish out of the pond anyway. I wish Karmex didnt have the downsides because it sure works fantastic, is cheap, and so easy to use for cleaning up a pond. I am using Cutrine Plus this year.

_________________________
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#335019 - 05/16/13 03:32 PM Re: Why wouldn't using Karmex be OK under my condition [Re: GARoss]
ewest Offline
Moderator
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Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19585
Loc: Miss.
First welcome to PB.

There are other products. I know a guy who killed his prized (large adult) walnut trees by doing what you ask about. These trees were 100+ years old and were a min of 100 feet from the pond(some were 100 yards away). By the time he knew he had a problem it was to late.


Edited by ewest (05/16/13 03:33 PM)
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#335021 - 05/16/13 04:16 PM Re: Why wouldn't using Karmex be OK under my condition [Re: GARoss]
Shorty Offline
Lunker

Registered: 07/28/05
Posts: 4227
Loc: Raymond, NE
Rodeo for cattails, Cutrine Plus for algae.
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#335024 - 05/16/13 05:08 PM Re: Why wouldn't using Karmex be OK under my condition [Re: GARoss]
Kelly Duffie Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/19/02
Posts: 1478
Loc: Cypress, TX (Helena A-E LLC))
70 mph is legal on some roadways, while 30 mph is illegal in others.
There's a big difference between highways and city-streets - and terrestrial and aquatic sites; especially with chemistry half-lives, and from a long-term environmental impact perspective.
Will you own your pond forever? Will future owners of the property consider stocking it with fish, or use it to water livestock, or irrigate a garden - or for potable purposes as water-scarcity increases?
Black helicopters probably won't swoop in out of nowhere with camo-clad EPA officials aboard if you do something you really shouldn't. But, just because you don't get ticketed or cause an accident while speeding down a roadway doesn't mean it's safe to do so.
As for me, I definitely wouldn't use it in any pond under my control.

Zep: the "EPA waiver" in MS (and TX) was politically driven by commercial food-fish producers (it's called a Section 18 Emergency-Use Exemption) - and has no toxicological data to support such uses. Check the Sect-18 guidelines. 0.8 oz per acre-foot is the permitted dosage for controlling a specific form of algae that causes off-flavor in fish (but is insufficient for weed or filamentous algae control).

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#335034 - 05/16/13 06:54 PM Re: Why wouldn't using Karmex be OK under my condition [Re: GARoss]
Zep Offline
Hall of Fame 2014


Registered: 07/27/10
Posts: 3089
Loc: Dallas & Wills Point, Tx
Thanks Kelly. My former caretaker I think said he put a teaspoon every 12-15 steps around my 4 acre pond. It was utterly amazing how it cleaned the pond up. With no fish kill that I could see and I've got tons of action in my pond this spring. But I was told it messes with the bottom of the food chain, so I told him to never do it again. But still isn't it amazing if this stuff is really that bad that it would EVER be approved in any amounts for commercial catfish farming that may end up on your table at Red Lobster?
_________________________
Fishing has never been about the fish....


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#335071 - 05/16/13 09:38 PM Re: Why wouldn't using Karmex be OK under my condition [Re: Zep]
esshup Offline
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Registered: 01/26/09
Posts: 24029
Loc: Grovertown, Indiana
Originally Posted By: Zep
But still isn't it amazing if this stuff is really that bad that it would EVER be approved in any amounts for commercial catfish farming that may end up on your table at Red Lobster?


That's why I almost NEVER order fish when at a restraunt. Last time I ordered fish it was fresh, never froze Bluefin Steaks that were seared over Mesquite and *barely* cooked inside the center of the steak.
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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).

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#335075 - 05/16/13 09:44 PM Re: Why wouldn't using Karmex be OK under my condition [Re: GARoss]
Zep Offline
Hall of Fame 2014


Registered: 07/27/10
Posts: 3089
Loc: Dallas & Wills Point, Tx
I bet much of what we order fish or whatever is full of chemicals
and many of the items at the grocery stores. Sad
_________________________
Fishing has never been about the fish....


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#335077 - 05/16/13 09:49 PM Re: Why wouldn't using Karmex be OK under my condition [Re: GARoss]
Bluegillerkiller Offline
Hall of Fame
Lunker

Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 3536
Loc: Illinois, St. louis area
We used karmax for years working for the state in city parks.. It was used for approximately 5 yrs and killed roughly 75% of the trees within 50' of the waters edge., and I'm talking huge healthy oaks I'm not 100% sure this is what killed them but they lived perfectly for 100's of years before spraying.. This stuff is bad news but works great basically instant death of FA..
_________________________
I believe in catch and release. I catch then release to the grease..

BG. CSBG. LMB. HSB. RES.


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#335081 - 05/16/13 09:54 PM Re: Why wouldn't using Karmex be OK under my condition [Re: GARoss]
Zep Offline
Hall of Fame 2014


Registered: 07/27/10
Posts: 3089
Loc: Dallas & Wills Point, Tx
you sprayed it?
_________________________
Fishing has never been about the fish....


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#335103 - 05/16/13 11:13 PM Re: Why wouldn't using Karmex be OK under my condition [Re: GARoss]
Bluegillerkiller Offline
Hall of Fame
Lunker

Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 3536
Loc: Illinois, St. louis area
Writing a book? Leave this chapter out. smile
_________________________
I believe in catch and release. I catch then release to the grease..

BG. CSBG. LMB. HSB. RES.


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#335116 - 05/17/13 12:34 AM Re: Why wouldn't using Karmex be OK under my condition [Re: GARoss]
Kelly Duffie Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/19/02
Posts: 1478
Loc: Cypress, TX (Helena A-E LLC))
I'll add one more thought to contemplate.

DuPont was the discoverer and original producer of diuron; back in the 60's I believe. Over the decades, DuPont pursued and received countless EPA registrations for diuron in a wide variety of terrestrial applications - and sold millions, possibly billions of pounds in the process. Yet, DuPont never, ever sought a diuron registration for aquatic use (a fact that most folks don't realize).

Now ask youself: Why would a large global company, with plenty of resources, decide to ignore an otherwise lucrative market-segment (aquatics, of any nature) for one of their flagship products?
Lackluster efficacy certainly wasn't an issue!

Let me know if anyone comes up with an answer that provides any sense of rationale or comfort for applying this product to your pond.

PS: Approximately 4 years ago, DuPont completely divested themselves from the global production and marketing of diuron (aka Karmex). Food for thought.....

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#335132 - 05/17/13 05:30 AM Re: Why wouldn't using Karmex be OK under my condition [Re: Kelly Duffie]
esshup Offline
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Lunker

Registered: 01/26/09
Posts: 24029
Loc: Grovertown, Indiana
Thanks for all the info Kelly. As usual you're a walking encyclopedia on the stuff! (not that you have any experience with weed control........) wink
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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).

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#335142 - 05/17/13 07:30 AM Re: Why wouldn't using Karmex be OK under my condition [Re: GARoss]
GARoss Offline


Registered: 05/16/13
Posts: 9
Loc: Michigan, USA
Politics controls everything. crazy While we were building we were hit up by the DEQ (Department of Environmental Quality) for a permit because we had "disturbed" 2 acres of soil. Huh? Like we're going to build a beautiful home & not grow grass? It seemed the pond digging pushed us over 1 acre which would of been exempt.

"So, $720 for what?" I asked DEQ.
"Well," DEQ replied. "Because you're within 500' of a drainage canal to Lake Huron. All this loose soil can drain into the canal unless the vegetation is restored."
"But all my land slopes in the opposite direction of that canal. It's impossible for rain water to flow uphill into the canal."
"It doesn't matter, you disturbed soil within 500'".

We paid for the permit & a year later received a 50% refund. But, all we did was build a home. Hundreds of thousands of acres are farmed each year. Tons of fertilizer, pesticides & weedkiller are used - all legally exempt, & all that flows into the lakes, too. I'm all for farmers but I don't understand the politics of the DEQ. How could I be charged for a permit for 2 acres & no chemicals & farmers exempt?

I've seen some suggestions of products other than Diuron & I will try one. My goal was to clear the pond, not kill our environment! grin

Thanks everyone!

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#335145 - 05/17/13 07:41 AM Re: Why wouldn't using Karmex be OK under my condition [Re: GARoss]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19585
Loc: Miss.
GARoss believe me we hear you and many of us have had (or are having) the same problems.

Our job here is to help give answers (provide the knowledge) not make any decisions (those are best left to the informed landowner).

We stay out of politics here because all hell would break lose if that can of worms was opened. Plus it is against Forum rules for that reason.

There ae other threads here on both EPA/COE and karmex if you want to read them.
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#335161 - 05/17/13 09:22 AM Re: Why wouldn't using Karmex be OK under my condition [Re: Zep]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 20043
Loc: Northeastern Indiana
Originally Posted By: Zep
I bet much of what we order fish or whatever is full of chemicals
and many of the items at the grocery stores. Sad


Not true if it comes from the U.S. However all bets are off if it's imported farm raised.


Edited by Cecil Baird1 (05/17/13 09:24 AM)
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#335163 - 05/17/13 09:44 AM Re: Why wouldn't using Karmex be OK under my condition [Re: ewest]
GARoss Offline


Registered: 05/16/13
Posts: 9
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: ewest
GARoss believe me we hear you and many of us have had (or are having) the same problems.

Our job here is to help give answers (provide the knowledge) not make any decisions (those are best left to the informed landowner).

We stay out of politics here because all hell would break lose if that can of worms was opened. Plus it is against Forum rules for that reason.

There ae other threads here on both EPA/COE and karmex if you want to read them.


Well said! And I will add that everyone here has been most helpful & understanding as well. I must apologize for the political rant! blush

I believe in saving our planet in anyway that I can help. I spoke to Applied Biochemist this morning & the rep in Cleveland, Tennessee helped me identify the type of algae (she wanted to make sure it wasn't duckweed) & which of their products would be most effective. Cutrine Plus liquid is on the way.

My thanks to all & please accept my apology.

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#335167 - 05/17/13 10:30 AM Re: Why wouldn't using Karmex be OK under my condition [Re: Cecil Baird1]
Zep Offline
Hall of Fame 2014


Registered: 07/27/10
Posts: 3089
Loc: Dallas & Wills Point, Tx
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Not true if it comes from the U.S.


Cecil...I'm not so sure.
Don't take me wrong...I eat meat,
but our diets with hormones/chems here in the US scare me.

"Russia announced that it intends to ban US imports of beef and pork unless these foods can be certified free of the livestock drug ractopamine"
http://thefern.org/2012/01/dispute-over-drug-in-feed-limiting-u-s-meat-exports/


"ammonia-treated meat paste that appears in some
70 percent of supermarket ground beef"

http://gothamist.com/2012/03/19/beyond_the_pink_slime.php


"U.S. standards on beef are lax, inspector general says"
"In 2008, Mexican authorities turned away an American shipment of beef, because it did not meet Mexico's limits when tested for copper traces. But the very same rejected meat could be sold in the United States, since no limit has been set, the analysis says"


http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/04/14/us.beef.testing/index.html


"Beef produced in the United States is heavily contaminated with natural or synthetic sex hormones, which are associated with an increased risk of reproductive and childhood cancers, warns Dr. Samuel S. Epstein, Chairman of the Cancer Prevention Coalition." http://world-wire.com/news/0910210001.html
_________________________
Fishing has never been about the fish....


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#335173 - 05/17/13 11:13 AM Re: Why wouldn't using Karmex be OK under my condition [Re: GARoss]
Bill Cody Offline
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Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12506
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Karmex works to sterilize the pond of plants just as a nuclear bomb works to eradicate life, but is it wise to use either product? Dupont no doubt knew the destruction Karmex had on the aquatic food chain which is probably why they never bothered to try and get it registered for aquatic use.
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#335187 - 05/17/13 12:45 PM Re: Why wouldn't using Karmex be OK under my condition [Re: Zep]
Bluegillerkiller Offline
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Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 3536
Loc: Illinois, St. louis area
He might have been referring to the fish part of that comment Zep, not sure that just kinda how I took it..


Originally Posted By: Zep
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Not true if it comes from the U.S.


Cecil...once again...we will "agree to disagree".

"Russia announced that it intends to ban US imports of beef and pork unless these foods can be certified free of the livestock drug ractopamine"
http://thefern.org/2012/01/dispute-over-drug-in-feed-limiting-u-s-meat-exports/


"ammonia-treated meat paste that appears in some
70 percent of supermarket ground beef"

http://gothamist.com/2012/03/19/beyond_the_pink_slime.php


"U.S. standards on beef are lax, inspector general says"
"In 2008, Mexican authorities turned away an American shipment of beef, because it did not meet Mexico's limits when tested for copper traces. But the very same rejected meat could be sold in the United States, since no limit has been set, the analysis says"


http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/04/14/us.beef.testing/index.html


"Beef produced in the United States is heavily contaminated with natural or synthetic sex hormones, which are associated with an increased risk of reproductive and childhood cancers, warns Dr. Samuel S. Epstein, Chairman of the Cancer Prevention Coalition." http://world-wire.com/news/0910210001.html


Edited by Bluegillerkiller (05/17/13 12:47 PM)
_________________________
I believe in catch and release. I catch then release to the grease..

BG. CSBG. LMB. HSB. RES.


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#335193 - 05/17/13 01:47 PM Re: Why wouldn't using Karmex be OK under my condition [Re: GARoss]
Kelly Duffie Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/19/02
Posts: 1478
Loc: Cypress, TX (Helena A-E LLC))
GAR: I would love to see that local co-op manager's face if an inspector for your state dept of agriculture walked into his store and asked for the person who was recommending diuron for aquatic treatments; or your farmer-friend's face for that matter.
I can assure you, their smug attitudes and winking smirks would disappear in a heartbeat.
I'm betting that the farmer would never contaminate his crop with a non-labeled pesticide: which begs the question, why would he do otherwise with his own pond - or encourage his neighbor to commit the same blunder. Evidently, he considers himself smarter than an impressive number of highly educated research chemists and environmental toxicologists.
To paraphrase an old Will Roger's quote: -That which we don't know rarely gets us into as much trouble as what we know, that simply ain't so.-

Bill: Interesting analogy, and quite accurate.

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