Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Pond Boss Need some help...off topic.

Since I consider the PB forum members to be some of the brightest folks I know, I could use a little advice.....I'm laying in supplies for next season's maple syrup production, and hit upon the idea of using food grade plastic 55 gal. drums for sap storage.

My problem is, the barrels in question held butter before I got em'. I have used hot water and Dawn dishwashing soap to remove the actual butter remnants, followed by multiple wash/rinses with more hot water and bleach. But, the barrels are still...slippery? inside, with residue.

Anyone have an idea what I could use to cut this stuff? Remembering, that the barrels are plastic, and I'm going to store a consumable liquid in them?

As of right now, my hands smell like butter, as do my clothes. When I walk in the house, the family complains of the "movie theater" smell...I'm suffering from a butter-induced headache, and I can't grip the Ibuprofen bottle tightly enough to get the cap off.

Any ideas?

Just googled it so no first hand experience.
Try
1- sprinkling baking soda and use a bit of dish soap on a cloth rinsing with very hot water.
Or 2- try washing it out with very hot white viniger.
Or 3- try orange based oil cutting hand cleaner like fast orange and rinse it well.

Not to beat a dead horse, Sparkie, but do I need to remind you that this would NOT be the ideal time to be handling the HBG?

I doubt the vinegar, BS, and bleach will help much-the butterfat will be minimally dissolved by any polar solvent. Multiple courses of detergent should work, as warm as you can stand. There's probably some special product that fits this niche, but I don't know what it is.

The tough part with any residue or cleaning agents is when you boil the sap down from 20:1 contaminated container, you concentrate that flavor. Smoke, bleach, vinegar, all bad...

What you want is a natural no-perfume real lye soap. Lye will remove ANY and all fatty substances. You should be able to find lye soap someplace. Then of course rinse, soak, rinse, soak, rinse.

One word of caution: Large containers are a *bitch* when the stuff ferments in warmer weather. I find smaller containers are easier to manage for moving in colder locations when it warms up.

To clean a fermented container, use some hydrogen peroxide sprayed on and soak for a bit to sterilize. Ammonia works well also to kill all bacteria that ferments sap.

Thanks LS...I'll give that a shot!

Open top or closed with bung access?

There is a coop a few miles from here that I get barrels from. Usually they had some sort of concentrate in them like orange juice or Dr Pepper. These were quite easy to clean out. Flush them a few times and the world is fine!

My sister wanted 6 barrels to cut in half for planters, said OK. All they had at the moment were barrels that were for liquid smoke. Rinse em out and all should be cool! Wrong!!! The liquid smoke remaining in these barrels was like tar! The first one was cut in half to clean it out, and nothing would touch this stuff. Not soaps, hot water, scrubbing, 2800 psi pressure washer, nothing!

I felt really miserable about this.

I took the barrels back and shoved them in a storage area in my shop. What to do with these things?

A few months later I had an auction to liquidate a bunch of stuff. Auction boss says, what about these barrels? FDA approved? Yep, PP and they once contained Liquid Smoke. Ever use them for something else?, Nope, this is the way I got them. He checks them out and says, Yep, smells like smoke, looks clean! (meaning that I wasn't previously using these to store nuclear waste)

He list's them as FDA approved food grade barrels that previously contained Liquid Smoke as a flavor additive. OK, now I can get rid of them.

This was a 3 day online auction. A bidding war ensued at the end for these barrels, and the 5 available went for 40.00 each, to one bidder.

I paid 6 bucks each, so I made out.

Funny thing is tho. They could have driven 4 miles east on the same road my shop was on and purchased 36, 55 gallon fruit juice barrels, which they had at the time, for the same price.

Auctions are quite unpredictable.

Closed w/bungs. I messed up by not moving fast enough...last week, he had barrels that had contained Lime juice. I understand that these were easy to clean.

This fellow had barrels and containers of all shapes and sizes. My attention was drawn to the big, square units, approx 4' cube(?)...external, metal framework, set on plastic pallets, with a large, screw on lid and a nice 2" bottom drain...also contained lime juice. He told me that these were selling to local people who were growing Tilapia, and the smaller barrels were used to build the filter systems...didn't know that anyone in my neck of the woods dabbled in aquaculture, but I may try and schedule a visit just to check their operations out.

SP, why not use the 275 gallon plastic tanks which are framed? They are clean to start. We can get them at the local farm supply stores.

IMHO storing that much sap is a real problem once fermentation sets in. You really need to process it as fast as it comes. Setting to boil before you store is an option, but expensive energy-wise.

275 gallons of fermenting sap makes a lot of vinegar.

I have seen large tanks of sap in the most down-hill corner of a property where all tubes lead, but notice that if there are no plans to process it, they leave the spigot open. It seems a waste, but if it begins fermenting, you have a lot of cleaning to do and you would need to throw it out anyhow.

I have been using a lot of 5 gallon buckets since I cannot process even 10 trees fast enough. It allows me to cycle the oldest ones in first. Everything is fine in cold weather when the buckets freeze up, but once over 35 at night, you start having problems. You can gauge how good the sap is based on how cloudy it is. If you can still see the bottom of the bucket, it is good to use.

A pro operation will have an RO unit as the first entry into a sap house. This filters out a lot of water at the beginning quickly, and concentrates the sugar so that you can process a lot more sap per hour and cuts energy usage. None of these places store anything but the final product.

ROs for this purpose and the large boilers cost so much, you have to tap a LOT of trees to make it worth the investment.

So what's wrong with Maple Syrup with a hint of butter flavor? Are you concerned that Mrs. Butterworths will find out?

The Amish that I get my syrup from have what looks like a 1,000 gallon tank on wheels, pulled by a team of draft horses to collect their sap.

My plan was to clean two barrels, and fabricate a stand to hold them both horizontally. I will insulate them in some fashion, and remove a section approx. 4" x 8" on top, in the middle of the barrel...probably install a hinge to make a door of sorts. The barrels will be high enough to fit a 5 gal bucket under the bungs, where I will install a brass valve.

There is a building on our property, formerly used as a shelter house, completely enclosed but with large, shuttered, openings(windows). This building has a concrete floor, and remains several degrees colder than the outside temps all year. I'm going to install a homemade arch inside, and evaporate the sap from there. I'll place the barrels inside, where I hope the combination of winter temps, constant shade, and the insulation I will add to the barrels themselves, will allow me to keep sap for 2-3 days. I plan to boil twice a week.

I'll bring the fresh sap to the barrels in 5 gal. buckets, pour it in through the openings I cut, THEN add several 20 oz. soda bottles filled with frozen sap...ice cubes, if you will.

I had hoped to clean the barrels before cutting the openings, as it would be easier to roll em' around in the yard filled with cleaning solution WITHOUT a hole in their middle, but I may have to cut em' first, then try and reach in and give them a good scrubbing.

Spkplug- how far are you from esshup?. If close, get some of his Phycomycin - maybe 3-5 lbs. 1st try to dissolve about 1-2 cups Phycomycin in 2 gallons of warm water (90F-100F) and spray it on the inside of the tank/barrel. Or you could swirl the solution in the barrels. Allow to work for 2-6hrs. Try to keep the walls damp with solution as it works. Rinse. If you still have butter residue or odor repeat the proceedure until the residue and smell are gone. If this works or doesn't work let me know. If you have Phycomycin left over email me and I will give you other neat ways to use it.

SP, how soon do you need this done? Barrels and all.

Bill, is the Phycomycin residue easily removable after it's work is done? As in ok for food grade storage?

JKB, I have until next Jan. to get everything set up, so plenty of time.....just getting the pieces in place as time allows.

I have a couple open top FDA barrels you can have. These had dry goods, so no liquid mess. The entire tops remove and there is a Stainless Steel cam/draw clamp ring that goes around the entire top to seal it. Been sealed up since I got them, so no nuclear waste

Esshup or Cecil should be up here before then.

Probably would have to do a relay type delivery to south of Indy.

Would be a cool thread tho. Follow the barrels from MI to IN

Your a 6 hour drive, one way, on a really good day!

I appreciate your generous offer, JKB. I've got a couple more things to try, as far as cleaning the ones I have, but if I don't have any luck I may just need to get different barrels...we'll see.