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#324552 - 03/07/13 11:16 AM NEPA Trout pond- post #2
brooktrout Offline


Registered: 06/18/12
Posts: 17
Loc: PA, US
Hey guys,

Back in June of 2012 I posted a topic regarding the construction of a small trout pond on my property. I wanted to divert a small stream into my pond and then discharge the water back into the stream. Many good comments were made and questions arose. I have not got most of those questions answered. Here is a summary.


The creek is considered a EV stream, which means I would need a DEP permit costing roughly 1750.00 if I wanted to dig a trench into the stream and use the water.

I would also need a DEP permit if the pond was within 50' of the stream due to FEMA's 100 year flood plain.

However, I spoke with someone from DEP on the phone and through E-mail and he stated that if I am 50' from the stream and as long as I do not break into the stream bank to feed my pond, I will need NO permits.

SO here is my thought process.

1. Keep the pond 50' away from stream.
2. Siphon the water from the stream using 4" pvc pipe or a 4" flexible house without breaking the ground. Then I would siphon water out of the pond and back into the stream in the same manner without breaking ground.

The DEP agent said this would not be an issue and I would need 0 permits.


So, Now to the good stuff.
How deep should I dig my pond to be able to hold trout year round? 8'??

Will a 4" pipe provide enough flow, oxygen, cold water to keep the pond cold enough for trout? The water temp of the stream is typically in the 50's and the pond will be well shaded.

I believe the soils I will be dealing with are all sandy/cobbles. I will need to inport clay or use a rubber liner. What is cheaper and what is "better"

Will I need to add a bubbler to the pond? If so, how do i get electricity to run it?


Thanks

MArk

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#324554 - 03/07/13 11:42 AM Re: NEPA Trout pond- post #2 [Re: brooktrout]
small pond Offline


Registered: 01/31/13
Posts: 616
Loc: somerset county pa
mark i like your idea first off your siphoning idea will work wonders for you. if i was you i would go with a clay liner. with a 4 in pipe i would not worry about water flow. and oxygen issues how big are you going. the pond will not have to be very deep mine is 4 ft deep and the trout don't mind. instead of an aerator i would put the end of the siphon at the bottom of the pond keeping the bottom suplied with fresh water and oxygen it will be cheaper and you won't have to run electric. hope things go well for you good luck. how big is the pond going to be keep in mind the smaller the easier it will be to keep cool. what are your goals and how many fish do you want. these factors will determin if youl need to aerate or not.


Edited by small pond (03/07/13 12:13 PM)
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#324555 - 03/07/13 11:49 AM Re: NEPA Trout pond- post #2 [Re: brooktrout]
adirondack pond Offline
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Brooktrout are you going to have to pump water or will the pond be lower than the stream?

Also I would dig the pond as deep as you can afford taking into account the type of soil you have, and get someone who is experienced at building ponds.
A good aerator system is always a plus especially with trout but beware turning over too much water during hot months.

My pond is fed from a stream that is higher than the pond and a 2 inch pipe supplies about 60 GPM with a head of 12 ft., total from 2 pipes is about 110 gpm and the trout survive fine with a max pond depth of 8ft., but then my summers are probably cooler than yours.
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#324556 - 03/07/13 12:10 PM Re: NEPA Trout pond- post #2 [Re: adirondack pond]
esshup Offline
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There are flow rate charts on the internet on various pipe sizes and water flow, but you have to know the head pressure like AP said.

How large of a pond will it be? That will also have some bearing on how much water you need to move thru the pond. Cecil moves 50 gpm thru his pond and it holds trout during the summer. Deeper is better, more cold water reserves.

I have sandy soil. I looked into a elastomer liner and I found that clay was cheaper, but still too expensive for my pocketbook. That might not be the case with a smaller pond.
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#324560 - 03/07/13 01:08 PM Re: NEPA Trout pond- post #2 [Re: brooktrout]
small pond Offline


Registered: 01/31/13
Posts: 616
Loc: somerset county pa
i forgot to mention when you go to stock cecil recomends no more than 12 pounds of trout per gallon per minute. size of the pond doesn't matter. trout farmers raise thousands of trout in raceways often only 3 ft deep and 6 ft wide but they have very high flow rates. the only reason i recomended not aerating is because it sounds like you are on a buget like most of us aeration is benifical in any pond. the other guys are right deeper is better but can cost more to dig the pond.


Edited by small pond (03/07/13 01:09 PM)
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#324564 - 03/07/13 01:47 PM Re: NEPA Trout pond- post #2 [Re: brooktrout]
Rainman Offline
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Book....siphoning or digging is the same as "breaking" in a regulated stream...permit required.

If the soil is sandy around the stream, or very porous, a shallow well, 50' from the stream would maintain stream level, help prevent trash fish contamination, and maintain groundwater temps. I would personally avoid the direct use of a stream unless I was a sure way to filter tiny trash fish fry.
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#324576 - 03/07/13 04:09 PM Re: NEPA Trout pond- post #2 [Re: brooktrout]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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I will comment on this when I get time. I will say one thing: Get what was said from the DEP in writing to cover yourself. These people have a habit of contradicting each other and sometimes a replacement can be 180 degrees off of his predecessor.
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#324581 - 03/07/13 05:01 PM Re: NEPA Trout pond- post #2 [Re: brooktrout]
brooktrout Offline


Registered: 06/18/12
Posts: 17
Loc: PA, US
Thanks for all the comments. Cecil, I would love to hear your input.

The pond would be about 25'X50'.. give or take. Not very big, but it what my land has to offer.

The pound would be lower than the creek, so siphon would be possible without a pump. I think the idea of the siphon going to the bottom of the pond makes a lot of sense. I do not need a lot of fish, maybe a couple dozen or so.

From what the man said Siphon and digging are two totally different circumstances. I do have it in writing through an e-mail. Is that good enough?

Thanks

Mark

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#324583 - 03/07/13 05:10 PM Re: NEPA Trout pond- post #2 [Re: brooktrout]
esshup Offline
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I would print out and save that e-mail along with all the information that showed where it came from and when. If the electronic copy was lost due to a glitch further down the road........
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#324586 - 03/07/13 05:55 PM Re: NEPA Trout pond- post #2 [Re: brooktrout]
small pond Offline


Registered: 01/31/13
Posts: 616
Loc: somerset county pa
thats close to the size of my pond. mine is 20 by 50,and i only have about 4 to 6 gpm during a drout but up to 35 or 40 after a heavy rain. i think with that few trout the size of the pond and the amount of water flow you will easily getaway without aerating. i gues you plan on feeding them since there wouldn't be much forage. good luck update us soon. i'd love to know how your project goes.


Edited by small pond (03/07/13 06:25 PM)
Edit Reason: numerouse typos
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#324653 - 03/08/13 08:55 AM Re: NEPA Trout pond- post #2 [Re: brooktrout]
brooktrout Offline


Registered: 06/18/12
Posts: 17
Loc: PA, US
esshup, printing it out as we speak! Thanks for the advice


Small Pond, I will keep everyone posted. At the moment I am taking quotes for the digging process, if I had the time I would dig by hand. How long did it take you to dig your pond out? If you have any pics of the entire process I would love to see it!!


Thanks


Edited by brooktrout (03/08/13 09:31 AM)

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#324667 - 03/08/13 10:21 AM Re: NEPA Trout pond- post #2 [Re: brooktrout]
small pond Offline


Registered: 01/31/13
Posts: 616
Loc: somerset county pa
soo sorry brooktrout i just recently joined when the pond was done i never took any pics of the digging process frown. for me beeing 14teen I had all of the time in the world to dig by hand. IT started about 1 year ago in march of 2012 and i'd spend at least 30 hours a week diging sometimes i was even down there in the dark. and i finaly finished in december. if you have the money go for a peice of equiptment. depending on what size you get it may only take a few days to do.
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#324673 - 03/08/13 11:00 AM Re: NEPA Trout pond- post #2 [Re: brooktrout]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 20043
Loc: Northeastern Indiana
Originally Posted By: brooktrout
Hey guys,

Back in June of 2012 I posted a topic regarding the construction of a small trout pond on my property. I wanted to divert a small stream into my pond and then discharge the water back into the stream. Many good comments were made and questions arose. I have not got most of those questions answered. Here is a summary.


The creek is considered a EV stream, which means I would need a DEP permit costing roughly 1750.00 if I wanted to dig a trench into the stream and use the water.

I would also need a DEP permit if the pond was within 50' of the stream due to FEMA's 100 year flood plain.

However, I spoke with someone from DEP on the phone and through E-mail and he stated that if I am 50' from the stream and as long as I do not break into the stream bank to feed my pond, I will need NO permits.

SO here is my thought process.

1. Keep the pond 50' away from stream.
2. Siphon the water from the stream using 4" pvc pipe or a 4" flexible house without breaking the ground. Then I would siphon water out of the pond and back into the stream in the same manner without breaking ground.

The DEP agent said this would not be an issue and I would need 0 permits.


So, Now to the good stuff.
How deep should I dig my pond to be able to hold trout year round? 8'??

Will a 4" pipe provide enough flow, oxygen, cold water to keep the pond cold enough for trout? The water temp of the stream is typically in the 50's and the pond will be well shaded.

I believe the soils I will be dealing with are all sandy/cobbles. I will need to inport clay or use a rubber liner. What is cheaper and what is "better"

Will I need to add a bubbler to the pond? If so, how do i get electricity to run it?


Thanks

MArk


4 inches may be just fine but keep in mind max flow rates given are for pressurized pipe and your flow will be gravity -- albeit a siphon. My pipe which is gravity flow from my well is 4 inch PVC and it pretty much fills the pipe at ~45 gpm.

Your depth of the pond depends on the flow. The more your flow the more water exchange and the less depth becomes an issue. I would shoot for at least one turnover per day of freshwater although mine is only 1/2 per day. You may not even need aeration if your turnover is good and your pond is not too deep.

Keep in mind siphons can be tricky. Get any air in there and the thing can gradually shut down. Been there done that with my early days with siphon and my recirc tanks. Keep both ends of the siphon below the water level at all times. If your siphon stops for any reason you may end up with some serious flooding. Also make sure you have something on the ends to keep fish in and out and to stop debris from entering the pipes. Also check periodically to make sure something doesn't come up against the ends of your pipes to block them.

Personally if it was me, and I wanted to do a siphon flow, I would use smooth bore pipe plumbed with a 't' and cap in the 't' to fill with a trash pump to get it started. There was a link here for Utube on draining a pond with a siphon. Perhaps someone here can find it?

Clay is usually cheaper but a good liner is reliable and less of a mess if done correctly and you don't mind spending the money.

Not sure trash fish would be that much of an issue in that cold of water. Perhaps darters etc. but most of the trash fish prefer much warmer water year around.


Edited by Cecil Baird1 (03/08/13 11:03 AM)
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#324675 - 03/08/13 11:16 AM Re: NEPA Trout pond- post #2 [Re: esshup]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 20043
Loc: Northeastern Indiana
Originally Posted By: esshup
I would print out and save that e-mail along with all the information that showed where it came from and when. If the electronic copy was lost due to a glitch further down the road........


Ditto!

I ship frozen gamefish all over the country as far away as Hawaii (just shipped some bluegills to Sun Valley, California) and have sent out written forms to inquire about the legality for doing so in all 50 states.

I've had a few instances where law enforcement officers and biologists disagreed with each other. I had one special agent refuse to answer my questions because he said, "You're going to break the law anyway." Even had a conservation officer tell me it was illegal in Virgina because so and so code said it was. When I proved to him the code was no longer valid and had been replaced with one that made it legal the following year (thanks to a fish farmer telling me so from the same state) he refused to budge.


Edited by Cecil Baird1 (03/08/13 12:48 PM)
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#324680 - 03/08/13 12:15 PM Re: NEPA Trout pond- post #2 [Re: Cecil Baird1]
adirondack pond Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 3135
Loc: big moose ny
Brooktrout if you decide to go with a siphon and have any distance to go a rigid pipe works better than flexible cause it helps eliminate high spots that can collect air and cause back pressure to stop your siphon.
I use 2 inch gray pvc conduit, they are 10ft.each with a bell end so you can connect each pipe without using seperate connectors and with a small pond 2 inch might be sufficient depending on the head from stream to pond.
When starting the siphon I just use a submersible pump in the stream and pull the pipe off after 15 or 20 seconds, then I attach a plastic T to the intake, the T is drilled with many holes so this spreads the suction over a larger area and reduces the chances of debris clogging it. If your worried about trash fish you can make a filter box with screening which will also reduce the chances of clogging.

I have two 300ft. long siphons and this has worked well for me.


Edited by adirondack pond (03/08/13 12:18 PM)
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#324684 - 03/08/13 12:49 PM Re: NEPA Trout pond- post #2 [Re: brooktrout]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 20043
Loc: Northeastern Indiana
Excellent points AP!
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#324690 - 03/08/13 01:31 PM Re: NEPA Trout pond- post #2 [Re: brooktrout]
brooktrout Offline


Registered: 06/18/12
Posts: 17
Loc: PA, US
Small pond- thats okay. Do you have any current pics of the pond?
Also, you never mentioned what kind of pond bottom you have. Is it clay?

Cecil- Thanks for all the input. I will have to meaure my possible flow. I believe I seen the youtube video you are talking about.
I think this is the link.
LINK : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lXl7tdJ7iY

I never gave the trash fish much of a though.. now I am concerned.

AP- Thanks for the response. Although Id like to say I completely understand your procedure, but I dont. Is there any chance you have pictures of this? I assume I would need a siphon 50-150' long coming into feed the pond and 50-100' going back into the stream.


Thanks Again.

I will try and upload some picures of the site and sketches I made.

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#324694 - 03/08/13 01:54 PM Re: NEPA Trout pond- post #2 [Re: brooktrout]
Rainman Offline
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Brook...you can't siphon in both directions...only from high to low points. At best, you would reach equalibrium and flow would stop. Inflow will either have to drain naturally, or be pumped out, if the pond is indeed lower than the stream.

Are you 100% sure your stream is higher? Shhot an elevation from the stream water level to your pond bottom (or anticipated bottom).

Even if stream/pond levels become equal, electrical pumping could be fairly inexpensive since head pressure would be near zero and low wattage pumps could be used.
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#324696 - 03/08/13 02:12 PM Re: NEPA Trout pond- post #2 [Re: brooktrout]
brooktrout Offline


Registered: 06/18/12
Posts: 17
Loc: PA, US
Pics!


Attachments
POND1.JPG (233 downloads)
POND2.JPG (215 downloads)
POND3.JPG (198 downloads)
POND4.JPG (211 downloads)
POND5.JPG (218 downloads)
POND6.JPG (254 downloads)
POND7.JPG (256 downloads)
POND8.JPG (219 downloads)


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#324697 - 03/08/13 02:14 PM Re: NEPA Trout pond- post #2 [Re: brooktrout]
brooktrout Offline


Registered: 06/18/12
Posts: 17
Loc: PA, US
Rainman, I uploaded some pics. I am fairly sure the stream is higher than the pond where the inflow would be and the pond is higher than the stream where the out flow would be. You can take a look at the pictures, the land is sloped in 2 different directions.

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#324699 - 03/08/13 02:23 PM Re: NEPA Trout pond- post #2 [Re: brooktrout]
fish n chips Offline


Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 2315
Loc: Northeast Ohio
Why couldn't you let the water from the pond flow naturally into the stream without a siphon? Did they specifically say that would not be allowed? You wouldn't be trenching, digging, or breaching, just let it flow over the surface of the current ground. Erosion would be a battle. Perhaps lay a pipe on top of the ground without digging, but it doesn't have to be a siphon.

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#324700 - 03/08/13 02:33 PM Re: NEPA Trout pond- post #2 [Re: brooktrout]
small pond Offline


Registered: 01/31/13
Posts: 616
Loc: somerset county pa
brook trout the pond bottom is compacted clay, i uploaded some picture files below. fnc I think that would be a great idea there is no need to siphon in both directions just let the water flow naturualy out of the pond.


Attachments
trout jumping.PNG (252 downloads)
pond pic.PNG (228 downloads)
pond pic 2.PNG (259 downloads)



Edited by small pond (03/08/13 02:40 PM)
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#324702 - 03/08/13 02:36 PM Re: NEPA Trout pond- post #2 [Re: brooktrout]
adirondack pond Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
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Here's a photo of the pipe inlet in the stream, you can see the gray pvc, I have a 2 inch rubber connector clamped on the end of the grey pvc and a curved piece of 2 inch flexable pvc attached to it. You can also see my second pipe below it covered in foam insulation
You can get the grey pvc in the electrical dept. of any Lowes or Home Depot, one end of each pipe is flaired so you don't have to buy seperate connectors to put the pipes together.



This is the outlet into the pond, I put a white pipe at the end of one line so if there's a stoppage I can tell at a glance which line to check at the inlet.
It's easy to start the siphon with a submersible pump, once the siphon starts just pull the pipe off the pump keeping the pipe under water.
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#324703 - 03/08/13 02:41 PM Re: NEPA Trout pond- post #2 [Re: adirondack pond]
adirondack pond Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 3135
Loc: big moose ny
If you have a laser level you can shoot a spot to determine if your pond site is lower than your stream and by how much, they don't cost much and are a great tool.


Edited by adirondack pond (03/08/13 02:43 PM)
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#324704 - 03/08/13 02:48 PM Re: NEPA Trout pond- post #2 [Re: brooktrout]
brooktrout Offline


Registered: 06/18/12
Posts: 17
Loc: PA, US
Fish n chips- You are right, I would not need a siphon from the pond to the stream if I was to lay the PVC on the ground. Good thinking

Small pond- Nice pics! It looks like you did a really great job! How big is your inlet pipe?

AP- Thank you for the pics, I am a visual kinda guy. Why did you go with 2 inlet pipes? Also, why did you decide to use a bent pvc? It looks like you have a really nice elevation drop from stream to pond. Im thining I may need a pump, my slope is not as dramatic as yours.

I do have a laser level and will look into checking the elevations asap.

two last question for now, do you have trout in your pond and pond depth? Also, do you have an out flow of water and if so to where?


Edited by brooktrout (03/08/13 02:50 PM)

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