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#32426 07/09/04 11:04 PM
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First I want to say this is a great forum and web site that I’ve bought three books from. Now I’ll tell you about our pond. It's almost an acre right now. It is the typical triangle shaped bowl with steep sides and is mostly 10-12' deep. It is spring feed and very little organic matter in it's watershed area right now, but that will change in a few years after out 500 hardwood seedling we planted around it get bigger. (I know what everybody’s thinking, but the trees where a must and any response in getting rid of them will be ignored.) In Indiana we have good fertile soil and I already have a nice light green tint to the water. Right now we have stocked bluegill, red ear, channel cat, and fat head minnows. The end of this month our large mouth bass will be here. I’ve put some PVC structures in it. I have a small feeder that I use to put out a small amount of feed twice a day. We are going to add a nice size 3-4’ pea gravel shelf next month. I am also planting some arrowheads and irises along the damn and some potted lily plants on sunken pellets. I also have a Geothermal HVAC loop for my house in my pond. I want to use an air diffuser system when I start aerating.
Question:
1. When should I start aerating?
2. Because of the geothermal loop I do not want to change the water temperature at the bottom to much in the summer or winter. Can you run an aerator in cycles or something to keep from doing that?

#32427 07/10/04 10:58 AM
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Muddy,
I'm no expert on aeration but with a new pond you can start aeration any time & run as often as you like.
Why didn't you put the geothermal loop under ground instead of your pond? In the summer it will warm your pond & cool it in the winter. The whole point in running an aerator is to mix water keeping oxygenated water throughout the water column.
Even if you suspend the diffuser above the HP loop you could still have some bad water below which can cause problems.
I would recommend placement of the diffuser on a pad fashoned & connected to a pole so it could be slid up & down in the water column as needed. In the spring (esp.) & fall when ponds normally turn over start lowering the diffuser to gradually turn the pond over preventing the problems associated with low DO. Then when the weather warms (in summer) & cools (in winter) with little chance of natural turnover move the diffuser back up above the loop.

BTW It would be prefferable to wait until next spring to stock LMB.


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#32428 07/10/04 09:23 PM
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The reason I put the loop in the pond was because of cost and efficiency (a LOT smaller loop & beater heat transfer). It doesn’t change the temperature of the pond very much itself, but if I ran an aerator continuously during the summer or winter the 10 degree change that I’ve read would affect my loops heat transfer.
What I’m thinking is in the spring and fall we don’t use the system much. In fact we’ve just started using it regularly last week so we could run it continuous. Then in the summer we could set it up on a timer to run at night. I really don’t want to run it during the winter unless it’s an emergency, because we like to ice fish. I've also read that running am aerator during the winter can lower the water's temp to much which is also hard on fish.
Would a run schedule like this work or am I missing the most important times to run it?

The stocking of the LMB this early is recommendation of our fishery Aquatic Control. Should I stop the order? Our minnows are going great. We put in 1,000 and I think there are at least four different sizes now and their everywhere.

#32429 07/11/04 02:50 AM
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It won't affect the heat transfer of the loop. It will have some effect on the performance of the heat pump (HP). Temps & pressures are relative so a 10 deg rise in temp will have a relative rise in pres in the HP.
In the summer the loop is your condenser (high pres. side). A 10 deg. rise in water temp is going to have very little effect on HP performance/effenciency.
In the winter the loop is your evaporator (low pres. side). A 10 deg drop in water temp will have a greater effect on HP performance/effenciency.
Conclusion: In summer I would aerate with no reguard for the HP. In winter If your fish are happy (not too cold) the HP will be happy.

It has been repeatedly stated on this forum that people who sell fish are inclined to sell fish . The forage base should be firmly established before adding preditors. Most of the experts here advise patients. Wait till next year & your forage base will have a better chance of sustaining itself over time.


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Ric
#32430 07/11/04 08:28 AM
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Muddy Fork, it sounds like you already have some fertility in your lake. Spreading some good black dirt in the lake will add to the fertility.
You have already added predators in the form of the catfish. How big are your bluegills? If they aren't big enough to spawn this year, get some that are! They will spawn immediately and there is your forage for the LMB. The fathead minnows will provide some forage while all of this is happening. The most important thing you can do is get some large spawning bluegills into your lake immediately.


Norm Kopecky
#32431 07/11/04 06:15 PM
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I thought the thousand fatheads where to feed the LMB this year. I'll call them tomorrow to see about rescheduling our delivery of the LMB until next spring.

#32432 07/19/04 10:15 PM
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My first post! I also have geothermal heating and cooling, but instead of using ground loops, I use straight ground water in a "Pump and Dump" setup. My efficiency is way up from a ground loop because the inlet water is 52F in Michigan year round. I did have to get a large well pump to handle the load, but it was a lot less than the 20K the loop contractors wanted to put the loops at the bottom of the pond.

This setup has created a slightly different problem however. I dump the geothermal water to my one acre pond (15 ft deep). Pond is 4 years old and I've been fighting algae ever since. I added a windmill last year, but the aeration was inadequate. This year I added a gast pump (4-5cfm at 10 psi) with 4 membrane diffusers and run it 24/7. In addition I've been doing regular bacteria treatments I got from Stoney Creek (Whoa, this stuff is expensive!). The situation has improved, but I still get regular algae growth. Instead of killing it off with Cutrine, I've been physically removing it with a rake, and dumping it far from the pond.

The local pond guy said I have to much nutrients in the pond, but I don't know where it's coming from. No farm, no stream, the pond is groundwater fed, It gets rain and the occasional waterfowl. I just can't keep raking this stuff out! It's driving me crazy!

My only thought is the geothermal dump. I have 5 geo units so in the winter I dump on average 20 gallons a minute all winter long. This can easily get to million gallons over the period of a heating season. My raw well water has a moderate amount of organics in it. I has to get a tannin water unit to remove them for my drinking water. When I tested the water, there was 5 mg/liter of organics. No nitrites or nitrates but phosphorus was present.

To all you pond bosses out there, any clue as to what is happening? Thank you for any advice!

Eric

#32433 07/21/04 05:44 AM
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I'm very interested in geothermal. Why did you not just use the pond and recirculate vs. the "Pump and Dump"? If you have water depth of at least 15 feet I think no matter how much heating you do you'll always have plent of heat source since the ground temp at that depth will never change.

Also, how much did your system cost?

#32434 07/22/04 10:41 AM
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Tuzz, I have an open loop geothermal system made by Waterfurnace. I installed the 3.5 ton system myself for about $3000, 10 years ago. A closed loop system would have cost an additional $3000 to purchase the re-circ pump, piping and labor to bury the piping material.
If you have your own well, the incremental costs of installing an open loop system is small and installation is easy.
My well pump is 2 HP with an 80 gallon water tank, which is slightly bigger than most residential needs. The unit uses 5 gpm, when its running. It runs about 6 hours per day in the summer. It is almost enough water to keep the two acre pond full in the summer, (pond level is about 4" low due to evaporation losses).
I did not consider recirculating the pond water because this would require installing an additional re-circ pump and filtration. It may be possible to re-circulate pond water, if you are not on a well, but there will likely be problems with biological growth coating the heat exchanger. In this case its probably better to go with a closed loop and just put piping coils in the bottom of the pond.


Jeff Gaines
#32435 07/22/04 12:54 PM
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Jeff, I would use close loop in the pond with the coils. Need to find out what that would take. Do you have any information or sources that I could check with?

Thanks.

#32436 07/22/04 01:05 PM
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Tuzz,
I really like the Waterfurnace Brand. I have had no problems in 10 years. It also comes with a superheater that hooks up to your waterheater to heat water with no additional energy cost, in the summer, with the waste heat.

see attached link.

http://www.waterfurnace.com/residentialloops.asp


Jeff Gaines
#32437 07/22/04 11:42 PM
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Since geothemal appears to be my area of expertice, I'll do my best to answer your questions. My particular installation is 5 units servicing an 8000 sqft home. It has been quite the experience over the last few years.

Pumping raw pond water to service the geo units will not work. If you use aeration to keep the pond circulating, the average temperature is in the 65 to 70F range. This water feed will do a poor job in cooling during the summer. There is not enough temperture difference to make it work.

You also have to consider the fouling of the coils. I use my well pump becuse it's clean filtered water, which I had to do anyway for the home. If the geo coils get fouled, you have a big problem. It involves flushing a strong acid and all sort of nasty things through the system.

At the end of the day, it was more cost effective to use the current well system to power the geo units than to set up a stand alone system to supply geo water. Double the equipment, double the cost!

#32438 07/24/04 05:12 AM
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Why not use a closed loop system like Jeff suggests?

#32439 07/24/04 08:47 AM
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You can use a close loop, but there are disadvantages. First is the cost of the loop. These are not cheap and can run $10,000 or more depending on the size of the loop. If heating is important for your climate, loop systems run at cooler tempertures. 35-40F. Ground water is 52F. There in a lot more heat in 52F water. As a result, loop systems require larger units to make up this difference. In my installation, every unit was reduced a full ton in cooling by simply commiting to ground water. I saved over $4,000 including the electricity to run them. Pump and dump systems have two disadvantages, one; do you have a place to dump the water. I use my pond which over flows to a wetlands. In the winter time if you're in a cooler climate, you'll go through a million gallons of ground water. The second disadvantage is you need an upgraded very dependable water source. This will cost more bucks. Most of the water the well puts out will be consumed by the geothermal units. Your personal use is minimal. If you can fulfill these two disadvantages open loop is the only way to go. Higher efficiency and lower equipment cost, with no glycol loop system to deal with.

#32440 07/24/04 03:34 PM
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I just want to heat with it. I thought water at or below 10 feet deep is always around 50 degrees due to the ground temp below.

Why is a closed loop so expensive? In principle it's just a big coil of tubing in the water to transfer heat energy to.

#32441 07/24/04 05:03 PM
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We have a Water Furnace with a closed loop in our pond for our new 3,000 sqf log home that we just moved into the first of this year. We have a 36” well that’s used just for the house water. Our system cost us under $14,000 total. I’ve never heard anybody complain about dealing with a closed loop. I mean what is there to deal with? It is sealed, hold less the 50gal of water and glycol solution, and has a pump that’s not much larger then my fist. I guess if you had a well that could never go dry, that had soft clean water, and a place to dump the water you’d be fine. If you can’t meet all of those things you can’t have an open loop.
Here’s the different system for geothermal.
http://www.waterfurnace.com/residentialloops.asp
I know a little about HVAC also. I’m a DOL card carrying HVAC journeyman and I work for a large industrial manufacture that has a facility that runs three 150 ton Trane chillers that uses 4 large wells and a river for an open loop system. So I know what’s involved in moving a lot of well water. It has a lot of iron in the system, but you might be lucking and have no problems. But I guarantee you’re one of the few not on of the many.
The reason I started this topic was not to talk about geothermal and HVAC. I get too much of that at work and I understand them. I wanted to discuses aerators and the best times to run them and how much they change the water temperature at the bottom of a one acre pond. Also I disagree 10 degrees is a lot for any person or machine to deal with especially a machine that controls a 10 degree difference between two environments. The only thing that I can thank that would help is with the flow or water turn over that’s caused by an aerator might help with moving heat and even by keeping the slug of the bottom that would reduce heat transfer.
I’ve decided to run an aerator through the summer because the advantages out weight the disadvantages, but for the purpose of ice fishing alone I don’t want to run an aerator during the winter. Can anybody tell me the needs of running an aerator during the winter for FISH?
1. Is it only when ice or snow covers it for long periods?
2. If only when the snow covers it can I drill a hole in the ice and pump water on the snow to melt it?
3. Can I run the aerator only for a set time each day or will that cause problems with the water temperature lays that have formed under the ice?
4. Does cooling the water down by running it continuously cause problems for the FISH, if so at what temperature?

Tuzz,
Price the systems. If you don’t have a well that can produce a lot of water add the price of drilling one to it, and remember not every property has a well that will produce water let alone lots of clean water.

#32442 07/24/04 06:54 PM
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 Quote:
Can anybody tell me the needs of running an aerator during the winter for FISH?
1 . Is it only when ice or snow covers it for long periods?
2 . If only when the snow covers it can I drill a hole in the ice and pump water on the snow to melt it?
3 . Can I run the aerator only for a set time each day or will that cause problems with the water temperature lays that have formed under the ice?
4 . Does cooling the water down by running it continuously cause problems for the FISH, if so at what temperature?
Bill Cody answers most of your questions here:

 Quote:
Bill Cody
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posted November 28, 2003 08:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A small pond of 1/4 ac will get super chilled below the 39F temperature if you run the aerator continuously. If you are determined to run the aerator during winter try the on - off cycle. But if you use the on - off cycle be sure you take the precautions that I mentioned in earlier posts regarding check valve at the diffuser and presure relief valve on the compressor. (see posts under Questions&Observations, topic: Winter Management / De-icer or Aerator by jakeboxer back on November 5, 2003). If you do not have one or preferably both of these items then run the aerator continuously.

The time needed to run the compresssor will be dependent on the severity of the winter you have this year. The more snow and below 0F you have the more or longer the daily "run time" will have to be to keep an open hole in the pond. I would start with 4 - 6 continuous hours of "run time" each day. See how that works and adjust run time from there. As I said earlier as long as the hole freezes closed with clear ice on top you will not need to run the compressor. Ample Oxygen will be made by microalgae under the clear ice.

Here's the link:
http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000022


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Ric
#32443 07/24/04 07:22 PM
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Has anybody tried this one?

2. If only when the snow covers it can I drill a hole in the ice and pump water on the snow to melt it?

Ric, and one plant has 5 Carries chillers. Just so I'm not promoting you competition. I saw your home page.

#32444 07/24/04 07:27 PM
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#32445 07/25/04 10:33 AM
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Muddyfork on your closed loop using the pond as a heat exchanger was the loop pvc or copper pipe? Also how much of the pond did you cover with the piping? This is the type of installation I am heading for and maybe using the slim jim to keep the exchanger more confined. I also wonder about people walking on the piping if it will be damaged, sometime it may be necessary to seine or swimmers may be in the water. If a person could keep the piping confined that would be a better installation I believe. Thanks to all for any information.

deaner pdean1932@charter.net


paul weatherholt
#32446 07/25/04 04:36 PM
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If you look at the picture of the pond loop on the site you’ll see the design of the loops.
http://www.waterfurnace.com/residentialloops.asp
It is very ridged polyethylene pipes and you'd have to try to damage it I think. My line was buried 5' underground to the pond. My pond was not filled at the time so they came out all most at the bottom of it which is 12 under water now. I have three loops which are basically 4' diameter loops side by side. So the area it takes up at the bottom of my pond is 4'x12' and that's all. It is a great setup and we’re very pleased with it.
Go talk to a dealer in your area and I’m sure they’ll show you a piece of the pipe and a unit.


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