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#32223 - 02/20/03 07:34 AM Securing a 20' Windmill on Gravel/Sand
Rowly Offline
Member

Registered: 07/09/02
Posts: 257
Loc: London, Ontario, Canada
Recently purchased a 20' Koender Windmill and moved to out on the ice to one of my islands. In the spring I will upright it. My question is this, should I secure the legs in concrete or will 5' to 7' metal stakes be enough to hold the windmill upright during frequent high winds on my sand and gravel ground? Also, what your thoughts on extending the hose out up to 200' in the water away from the windmill. It comes with 100' of 1/2" hose moving a max. of 2 CFM, will 200' greatly reduce the already low CFM's? Thanks for your input.

Rowly

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#32224 - 02/20/03 08:23 AM Re: Securing a 20' Windmill on Gravel/Sand
Dave Willis Offline

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Registered: 09/09/02
Posts: 2587
Loc: South Dakota State University
Rowly -- one of the pondowners I work with has Koenders windmills. All of them are in concrete pads. Perhaps some other folks can tell you if the metals stakes would hold. If not, let me know via this website, and I'll give you an e-mail address for that pondowner. I'm sure he would be glad to explain to you why he decided to go with the concrete pads (the wind blows "once in a while" in South Dakota).

I'll bet someone will give you a good answer on the friction loss from the extended hose. There are a lot of people on this website with far more practical knowledge than me. However, I'd bet that the friction loss in a narrow (1/2 inch) hose would be pretty substantial over 100 feet.

Dave
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#32225 - 02/20/03 02:30 PM Re: Securing a 20' Windmill on Gravel/Sand
Tom Neshek Offline
Member

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 15
Loc: WISCONSIN
I have a smaller model (12') and have just staked it. This has worked fine with no problems whatsover.
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#32226 - 02/20/03 05:40 PM Re: Securing a 20' Windmill on Gravel/Sand
Bill Cody Offline
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Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12469
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Rowly - You should put a concrete pad around the windmill base. I've had several mills blow over in strong winds. Another possibility is to use three turn-in type anchors; one on each side and tether each to a leg brace. I prefer the concrete pad. Koenders will not warranty blow overs. Are you sure the hose is 1/2"? Koender's standard airline is 3/8". Did you or your supplier substitute different windmill hose?
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#32227 - 02/21/03 06:14 AM Re: Securing a 20' Windmill on Gravel/Sand
Rowly Offline
Member

Registered: 07/09/02
Posts: 257
Loc: London, Ontario, Canada
David, Tom and Bill:

Thanks for your input. Tom did you anchor your stakes in heavy or light soil (clay or sand/gravel?). David I'm hoping to get some first hand responses on friction loss on the addition (up to 100') 3/8" airline from other pond meisters. Bill your right again, on further inspection the airline hose is 100' and 3/8" diameter with a 7" airstone. I think your right I will secure the legs on concrete pads poured below the frost line (4' in my geographic location). Any idea on friction loss by adding up 100 feet extra airhose totalling up to 200' using 3/8" hose? Would adding only say 50' be much better or should I just use only 100' and live with the restricted distance. My tanks is approx. 1000'long (north/south) X 750'(east/west). The island are located approx in the back 1/3 north/south and 150' out of the east shoreline. Thanks for your responses.

Rowly

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#32228 - 02/21/03 11:11 AM Re: Securing a 20' Windmill on Gravel/Sand
Pottsy Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/21/02
Posts: 494
Loc: Ottawa, Canada
Hey Rowly,

I have done quite a bit of experimenting with air/airlines in the last little while. From my experience I would say go ahead and try with 200'. There are really two main determinants in friction loss in regards to moving air. The first is the texture of the pipe bore, the smoother the better. And the second major factor in air movement is the number of fittings and bends. Remember that a bend or corner can have the friction loss equivelent of many feet of hose. Pipe size would really be the third determinant factor in air movement, obviously the larger the diameter the easier it is to move the air, however there is a point at which friction vs. velocity becomes a factor. 3/8 inch line should be fine over a couple hundred feet, but do your best to keep the line straight and find a way to join the lines without decreasing the inside diameter at the fitting. Also bear in mind that a pumps ability to move air through an air-stone is also greatly dependant on the depth of water the stone is placed in... the deeper it is the more back pressure, the harder a pump must work to force the air out and the less flow you will get. For max flow I would try to keep an airstone 10 feet deep or less if you can do so.

As for anchoring your new windmill, it sounds from the posts above that for safety you would be best to put in concrete pillings or such. I would be inclined to trust a 3-5 foot anchoring stake on each leg if you were anchoring it into something other then gravel or if it had a wide base and the stakes where 'turn-in' type as Bill suggested, but best not to take chances and wreck your new purchase eh? Also as Bill said, installation short-sights would come out of your own pocket and nobody like that.
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#32229 - 02/23/03 08:01 AM Re: Securing a 20' Windmill on Gravel/Sand
Bill Cody Offline
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Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12469
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Rowly - I'm not sure that you have to make the thickness of the cement pad down to the frost line. My windmill pad is 5"-6" thick. I dug out around the base and used the dirt sides as walls for the pad. The 20' mill has a wide base so a cement pad around the entire base is a lot of concrete to haul to the island. The ground rods extend below the frost line. Inspired by Nature pours cement pillars around the ground rods for their anchoring methods. Your substrate may require slightly different techniques. Koenders recomends guy wires.
Pottsy covered the main features of air flow through tubing. Additionally pressure & air volume are impt w/ the items you are using. The mill can develop fairly high pressure (upto 30psi) but this also requires higher wind speeds. But for your purposes 200' of 3/8" airline will be no problem primarily because your air volumes will be low since you are using a windmill. As Pottsy said keep your angles/bends to a minimum. If you can figure out how to join the airlines externally vs internally that would be best, but for 200' internally will be okay w/ the mill. You do not have to buy another 100' of Koenders 3/8"hose. Rowly - you can also come out of the mill or freeze control with 1/2" or 5/8" (quality garden hose or cheap blk poly pipe) for any distance then reduce down to 3/8" for the remaining 100'. I have reducers cheap ($0.30)to make the reduction. Any quality farming or plumbing store also may have them. An option is to bush up the 3/8" hose barb outlet w/ a 1" long short cutoff piece of hose (3/8"ID & 1/2"or 5/8" OD) or equivalent and slide/clamp the 1/2"ID or 5/8"ID hose onto it(This requires a thick walled hose). Reduction coupling would also work. Also my 1/4"threadedx3/8"hose barb is on the threaded end: 1/2" OD. It would work as a reducer for 1/2"to 3/8". Just clamp the 1/2" airline hose to the threaded end. Not a problem since you are dealing with low pressures.

The air stone is not the best or most efficient diffuser for the mill. Try it, but for next year look around for a rubber membrane 10"-12" dia or 2" dia tubular style; they are much more efficient. Notice how the stone produces large bubbles esp as it starts to plug up. Smaller bubbles move much more water compared to big bubbles. I have not been successful at getting Koenders to stop using the stones which are inefficient.
Did you get a freeze control tank?
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#32230 - 02/24/03 08:24 AM Re: Securing a 20' Windmill on Gravel/Sand
Rowly Offline
Member

Registered: 07/09/02
Posts: 257
Loc: London, Ontario, Canada
Bill and Pottsy:

Thanks for your input. I may try the larger diameter quality garden hose for approx. 100', then reduce to the 3/8" airline with an external connector for the remaining 100'. I will keep the bends to a minumum and straight line out to the desired location in approx 6-7' of water depth with the airstone sitting on a weighted platform off the lake bottom a few inches. Bill I will watch the 7" airstone and may replace it with the 10-12" rubber membrane. I didn't get a "freeze control tank". What is this item and how does it work for us cold winter guys? My supplier is only a few miles away and he can get it for me I hope if this is highly recommended? Thanks

Rowly

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#32231 - 02/24/03 01:03 PM Re: Securing a 20' Windmill on Gravel/Sand
Pottsy Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/21/02
Posts: 494
Loc: Ottawa, Canada
I am not 100% sure on Bill's "Freeze control tank", I will take a guess that it is similar to a condensation tank used to keep water out of airtools/paint guns etc. when using an air compressor. i.e. a larger volume container, is attached inline with your hose and condensation/liquids gather in it to be drained away via a pitcock. Am I on the right track Bill?

Bill or Rowly, do either of you fellow's have a link to a picture/details on the rubber membrane diffusers? Thank you.
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#32232 - 02/24/03 06:49 PM Re: Securing a 20' Windmill on Gravel/Sand
Bill Cody Offline
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Field Correspondent

Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12469
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Rowly - Don't go to very much trouble to use an external connector when reducing from larger to smaller airline. Your situation does not require it since you are only dealing with 100' of 3/8". Pottsy has described Koenders old sediment bowl. New version as Freeze Control Device is a sediment bowl with a simple mechanism to inject methyl or ethyl alcohol into the airline when ice blockage occurs. They are beneficial if running the windmill in northern winters. The problem of running the mill during winter is you hope the check valve on the diffuser ALWAYS works, which it doesn't esp as the unit ages. Leaky check valves allows water to feed back intothe airline to the waters edge. Guess what happens then. Water in hose freezes stopping airflow, windmill continues to crank, pressure continues to increase with no outlet. Bham! Something breaks; at weakest point. I also highly recommend (which Koenders does not make available) an adjustable pressure relief valve on sediment bowl or freeze control if running mill during winter.

Pottsy - Rather ordering a diffuser from USA go to the nearest sewage or water treatment plant and ask the manager to see his largest Canadian supplier book. They will have them. To see what they look like see: www.stoneycreekequip.com
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#32233 - 02/25/03 11:45 AM Re: Securing a 20' Windmill on Gravel/Sand
Tom Neshek Offline
Member

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 15
Loc: WISCONSIN
My windmill is staked in clay soil.
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#32234 - 02/27/03 02:43 AM Re: Securing a 20' Windmill on Gravel/Sand
Bob Lusk Offline
Editor, Pond Boss Magazine
Lunker

Registered: 04/10/02
Posts: 3103
Loc: Whitesboro, Texas
Call Koender and ask them. They probably have specs for you, especially if they have to stand behind the product.
Hey, everyone...be sure and read the next issue of Pond Boss. Pottsy and Bill Cody have written the lead articles.
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#32235 - 02/28/03 03:50 PM Re: Securing a 20' Windmill on Gravel/Sand
Rowly Offline
Member

Registered: 07/09/02
Posts: 257
Loc: London, Ontario, Canada
Bill/Pottsy/Bob:

Thanks for your input and I will try to apply the same. Looking forward to Bill and Pottsy's article in the next issue of pondboss mag, a true international article I bet. Regards

Rowly

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#32236 - 03/03/03 05:43 PM Re: Securing a 20' Windmill on Gravel/Sand
pond critic Offline
Member

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 15
Loc: Wisconsin
Hello there guys,
Thought that I would chime in on this topic. I just wanted to let you know that I have used the Koenders Windmills as well and I agree that there stones are not efficent. I have gone as far a changing the hose barb to a 5/8 barb and ran self sinking air line from the unit to a regular diffuser that does produce a much finer bubble. This seems to work well. Also the anchors that they provide seem to be very adequate. We have a 20' windmill in the front of our shop that has seen some very strong winds and have no problems with the stability of the mill. We really just have the mill on rail road ties that are set slightly in the ground.

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#32237 - 03/03/03 09:23 PM Re: Securing a 20' Windmill on Gravel/Sand
Bill Cody Offline
Moderator
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Field Correspondent

Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12469
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Rowly - Did you call Koenders? What did they say about anchoring the mill? Just curious?
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#32238 - 03/05/03 03:00 PM Re: Securing a 20' Windmill on Gravel/Sand
Rowly Offline
Member

Registered: 07/09/02
Posts: 257
Loc: London, Ontario, Canada
Bill, haven't called yet, just getting ready to go south and some warm weather- too cold here and for too long this winter. But, I will call before I erect the 20' tower and let you know.

Rowly

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#32239 - 04/17/03 02:01 PM Re: Securing a 20' Windmill on Gravel/Sand
Rowly Offline
Member

Registered: 07/09/02
Posts: 257
Loc: London, Ontario, Canada
Update, just erected the windmill last weekend with 7' stakes and Bill I will cement the anchors later. Used 3/8" line straight out into the water to where I would like the aeration in the winter but working great now in 5' water. Question, can I use a type of pressure value to either divert or split the air to another line say 3/4" X 200'long located in a deeper column of water for summer use and close off in the winter? Recap 1 main line from tower split into 2 lines- 1- 3/8" X 100' sitting in 5' water for winter use and 1- 3/4" line X 200' sitting in deeper water under 10' for summer use. Can both lines work at the same time considering length of line and diameter both for year round use? Or do I need a control that can only work one line at a time. It would be a waste of energy from the windmill to use only one line as the pressure increases with the strong winds I have most of the time on the island and across the lake. Thanks Bill and others

Rowly

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#32240 - 04/17/03 03:53 PM Re: Securing a 20' Windmill on Gravel/Sand
Pottsy Offline
Lunker

Registered: 04/21/02
Posts: 494
Loc: Ottawa, Canada
Hey Rowly, I don't know much about the windmill pumps but they may have either a pressure relief valve or a maximum PSI that they put out regardless of how far beyond their median speed the blades are turning. i.e. they may have a max pressure at 15mph winds that doesn't increase even if you get 25 mph winds. (This I just don't know). That said there may not be enough pressure consistently in order to run two separate lines of any great distance. Remember that the deeper your diffuser the more pressure is required to pump air through it. You could put in a valve that would allow you to swap between diffusers at different depths, that might be a good idea. As far as running two diffusers at different depths through a spliced line concurrently; there is potential that only the diffuser in the shallowest water will have any output because it is the path of least resistance.
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#32241 - 04/17/03 05:39 PM Re: Securing a 20' Windmill on Gravel/Sand
TyW33 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/03
Posts: 310
Loc: Mankato, MN
I know that if you split an aquarium airline and run it to two seperate airstones they do not bubble evenly, ever. Sometimes the deeper one doesn't bubble at all, then you add in more valves and fiddle with it for thirty minutes.

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#32242 - 04/17/03 09:55 PM Re: Securing a 20' Windmill on Gravel/Sand
Bill Cody Offline
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Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12469
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Rowly - Welcome back. Let's see if we can straighten this out for you. You better print this out and study this because it gets a little detailed.
1. A. Wind & pressure. Despite what you may have read/heard from others or from 'some' advertising your mill will not produce 1 cfm or greater until the wind speed gets 24mph to 31mph(pretty stiff wind). I have the wind speed/cfm flow charts to prove it. At slower wind speeds the air flow (cfm) is proportionally less. The mill will generate bubbles in as little as 5mph but only a few bubbles compared to those produced in a 20mph wind. So air flow volume (bubbling action) is dependant on wind speed, as you will notice during operation at various wind speeds.

B. You talk about "waste of energy... as pressure increases with strong winds". This is going to test my ability to explain with written words. I may need to get wordy to get the point across. As explained above, air volume will increase with wind speed but the maximum pressure produced will be about the same at medium and high speed. You can prove this if you want. Put a pressure guage in line or if you have a freeze control tank, it has a mounted guage. Now, block the air flow and watch the guage at medium vs high speed. All wind speeds above 10 psi can produce close to 30 psi. Maximum psi produced or recommended by the company is 30 psi. DO NOT let pressure build higher than this. Mechanical damage will start to occur at weakest parts above 30psi.

Maximum depth of your diffuser will determine the minimal psi & minimal wind speed necessary to produce bubbles. Shallower the diffuser the less pressure needed to release bubbles. In a VERY gentle wind notice how the fan will spin forward several turns and then spin backward. There is not enough wind speed to continue to develop enough compression or pressure to overcome the pressure needed to release bubbles; thus the build up of internal hose & bumper tank pressure pushes back on the diaphragm and causes the fan to spin backward. Again this only happens in very gentle wind. But it demonstrates that wind speed sometimes is not enough to overcome the pressure needed to release bubbles due to water head presssure. The deeper the diffuser the higher the head pressure and higher the minimal wind speed needed before a diffuser will bubble.

So actually there is never no wasted pressure. The mill can in moderate to heavy wind generate ample pressure but psi (pressure) will only build up enough to get the bubbles releasing and then pressure will not increase beyond that point UNLESS there isan airline restriction. The only thing that will increase with greater wind speed is the air flow volume (cfm). There is no pressure tank with regulator to allow pressure buildup beyond what is needed to release bubbles.

2. Two bubblers simultaneously. The mill does not generate enough air flow most of the time to adequately run two bublers at the same time, unless you don't expect very many bubbles from each bubbler. IT Could be done but water movement would be minimal from running two at once. You will be dividing what little air is produced between two diffusers. The more air volume each gets the more bubbles that will be produced. Try it and see if you are happy. Measure effectiveness of circulation with a water temperature profile study in the vicinity of each bubbler.

3. Two bubbers at different depths. I'm not sure how well this will work with the mill so I will explain operational theory with an electric air compressor and you apply it to your mill. I have never done this with a mill because of the reasons in #2 above. Minimally, to get both bubblers to work each at different depths you need a ball valve in line for the SHALLOWEST bubbler. With the compressor in operation, and the valve closed keep opening the ball valve until both diffusers produce bubbles. What you are doing is restricting or regulaing the airflow to the path of least resistance until the operational pressure to both diffusers is the same. Air will always want to go to the shallowest bubbler or path of least resistance. The ball valve equalizes them out. I do not prefer this method because it will not work very good as the bubblers start to plug up or become clogged. Now this method becomes pretty useless since the bubblers are causing variations in pressure between the two bubblers.

Best way to operate both bubblers is with a ball valve on each airline. Now you adjust airflow to each by adjusting each ballvalve. Keep in mind that all the air wants to go to the shallowest bubbler. With two, I leave the deepest one wide open and close the shallowest bubbler, then I open the valve on the shallow diffuser until I get the desired flow in both. As the bubblers clog over time you may need to redjust the valves. It's best to clean the bubblers and their attached check valves annually.
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#32243 - 04/29/03 02:41 PM Re: Securing a 20' Windmill on Gravel/Sand
Rowly Offline
Member

Registered: 07/09/02
Posts: 257
Loc: London, Ontario, Canada
Bill, yes I'm somewhat back...., thanks for the detailed info. I will give it a try and experiment with the two lines of different diameters, distance to air stone and the different depths of each. In a perfect world it would be nice to have both lines work well but if I have too, I can operate the long/deep line in the summer and the shorter shallower line in the winter to keep an open hole thru the ice. Differnt topic, any ideas on ornamental/utility ducks and geese to have around this northern lake throughtout the year and live (have assess too) a southern exposured shelter on one of the islands close to the open water and winter feeding, eg muscovy ducks, rouven ducks or pekin ducks, etc.

Thanks again as I move forward on my pond management. Pottsy what your take on good northern ducks that survive well outdoors with little work from your neck of the frozen woods. Still skating on your rink?????

Rowly

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