Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Creating the food chain Need Forage Advice/Sourcing

Josh, Richard [Bullhead], and I are in need of forage suggestions for YP, SMB fishery. We want forage that will hopefully establish and become self sustaining. Cody and Travis have suggested these species in the past IIRC and I wanted to verify I'm not missing anything:

Bluntnose Minnow
Banded Kilifish
Topminnow

If I have the list correct, can someone recall the online source [which posted here on the forum at one time] where we can purchase these? We can't seem to find the post, but he advertises a wide range of "exotic" or hard to find fish such as these.

Thanks in advance everyone!

Spotfin Shiner was another one that Bill suggested.

I think there was a place called Jonah's Aquarium that sold small quantities, and expensive, of a variety of species, including many of the ones we're looking for. I think there's better options though.

http://www.jonahsaquarium.com/jonahsite/fishlist.htm

Found it, pricing is ridiculous. $7/ea for bullheads! LOL, I'm in the wrong dang business!

"Wholesale pricing available" for the bluntnose and spotfins.

I'm inquiring...we may have to road trip to Cody.

I have a friend who lives near Cody who visits Omaha often and is willing to deliver if necessary as well.

Will they take some in on trade?

No kidding, or BF tadpoles...I could fund us all no problem!

I think Bill had Spots and Bluntnose...only $3.99/each!

TJ, with all the limestone that is available in your area, I'd make sure I had enough habitat in place to keep a viable, self sustaining population of papershells in the ponds as well.

You may want to think about having areas of heavy cover for forage fish protection, but then clear areas for the predators to have a wide open hunting area.

Do spotfins and bluntnose occur naturally in NE?
See my "Growing the Best Smallies" Part V for some good food items for smallmouth bass.
http://www.bassresource.com/fish_biology/growing-smallmouth-bass.html

The food items listed is not all inclusive and intended as a good basis. Threadfin shad could be a possibility for southern ponds. Hybrid bluegill are another possibility that would a bonus fish and also provide a good panfish but not a lot of forage fish. The banded killifish could be substituted for the top minnows. Don't overlook tilapia. They could work well with smallies in a pond that has algae. Weed beds or dense cover would be very beneficial in a pond with smallies to provide refuge for the forage fish. It is a delicate balance between too many weeds and enough to create good small fish refuge. Some shallow water or an adjacent wetland may help with cover for forage foods including grass shrimp and numerous insect larvae. A thought - If one had a lengthy part of the shoreline 50-100ft with tethered floating islands this may provide good habitat for small fish of all kinds, improve water quality and not get out of control plant-weed management wise.

Omaha mentions spotfin shiner Cyprinella spilopterus. I like them. I am not sure how they would thrive with smallmouths as a main predator. But other very similar species in other parts of the US are the satinfin shiner - eastern US (Cyprinella analostana) and Steelcolor shiner - more central midwest (Cyprinella whipplei).
http://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/factsheet.aspx?SpeciesID=523

All have the same niche, do well in ponds and spawn the same unique way. These shiners work good for the perch dominated ponds. One may have to resort to using the golden shiner which gets large(8"-10") and can better avoid smallie predation compared to the other shiners - spotfin, satinfin and steelcolor which get to around 5" long. If you have any of these shiners in streams of your area, I can tell you how to collect them.

Bill

Is the idea that bluntnose minnows will be more successful than FHM a misconception on my part? We intend to use papershell crayfish and grass shrimp in conjuction with minnow species, we're just not entirely certain what the best species are to pursue for Nebraska fisheries.

Sounds as though you're in favor of blackstripe topminnow and/or banded kilifish. What about Bluntnose?

Yes they do. I've talked to a local fisheries biologist about them and he suggested larger creeks or small rivers, but I've had no luck.

You are correct. The bluntnose is much better at surviving predation compared to fatheads. Although with inadequate refuge areas smallies will eliminate the bluntnose. An abundant population of yellow perch in a pond with minimal habitat - refugia will eliminate the bluntnose. Bluntnose are able to maintain good densities and thrive in many natural lakes with bass, walleye, pike and yellow perch, however in these waters there are always weed beds, good amounts of emergent vegetation and often rocky &/or woody cover. You can't expect quail and pheasants to live in open fields with predators around without good, adequate, diverse cover. The cover density would depend on how many predators there are preset per unit area.

The banded killifish gets to a decent size maybe 5". I have no experience with them and do not use them for fear they will compete and eliminate my blackstripe topminnows.
http://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/factsheet.aspx?SpeciesID=685
There is a western banded killifish
http://aquafind.com/Killifish/Killifish-Western-Banded.php

I think topminnows and killifish would use the same niche. It appears banded killifish occur in Ohio and the upper midwest, but I would try them in a perch - smallie pond or a perch pond if did not have my topminnows. I think the banded killifish would be better at avoiding predation compared to any of the topminnows mainly because the killifish get larger than the topminnows.

Your blackstripe topminnows and bluntnose, given appropriate cover, are doing well in your YP/SMB ponds now, correct?

The bluntnose, spotfins and topminnows do well in my weedy 3/4 ac pond but there are no smallies in it just perch and walleye. I would be doubtful if all would thrive if smallies were present. I would include the golden shiner if I had smallies. When I had smallies and YP in my smaller 1/3 ac pond that had weed cover the bluntnose and golden shiner survived to spawn each year. The shiner population was pretty 'strong'.

There is a 1/3 ac pond north of me that has smallies, YP and RES - all thrive although the RES numbers are not abundant (see below when male BG were added). A population of reproducing smallies with 20-40 new recruit smallies per acre per year would be a pretty strong predatory force on these three small soft rayed fish. Smallies do not hesitate to feed surface to bottom on whatever soft rayed fish is available. Perch and walleye are not known for the surface feeding where some upper open water fish species can escape being chased. I often see minnows probably shiners or top minnow jumping, skipping on the surface to I assume avoid being eaten.

Thanks Bill, my experience is that GSH can survive heavy SMB and even HSB populations - maybe feeding is helping in my case.

I will have a female YP, male BG and RES pond designed as a "trophy" fishery - do you think a bluntnose/topminnow forage base along with Grass Shrimp would be successful?

If one regually fed the fish I am confident yellow perch will do well with smallies and few other forage fish. You would keep the fishery thriving by feeding the perch and maybe a few of the self trained smallies. Smallies and some of the larger perch would grow by cropping the abundant smaller YP assuming the perch are producing good recruitment. Harvest the perch as the population increases. Harvest smallies based on what predatory force is needed to keep YP at the balance needed to achieve your goals. See the next example.

There is a small pond west of me that has only yellow perch, spotfins and one grass carp. The spotfins have only been in there for two years. The guy feeds carnivore Aquamax 500 & 600. I keep expecting this pond to stunt out but it hasn't happened since it was built and stocked in 1992. I think some of the big perch eat small perch and his limited annual harvest and daily feeding keeps the perch growing and from becoming stunted. I annually sample this pond by hook and worm angling and regularly catch larger perch in the 8"-12" sizes with an occassional 13"er. It is a learning experience for me.

Your example above of " I will have a female YP, male BG and RES pond designed as a "trophy" fishery - do you think a bluntnose/topminnow forage base along with Grass Shrimp would be successful ". It could work well or be marginal depending on habitat. I would plan and use papershell crayfish in this pond that includes lots of broken concrete as multi-use habitat. I like to use broken sidewalk pieces which are managable for me to handle and place. Remember that one of Bob's main items for a successful trophy fishery is HABITAT. The crayfish would be optional if you did not use a predator such as smallmouth.

If you stock as planned, plan on the male BG and RES to cross. I learned that by putting 2 male bluegill in the pond that I mentioned above. The male bluegills were to be teacher fish to help lead the perch to pellets. It now has hybrid redears that are going fast. I'm not sure how this SMB-RES-YP-GSH fishery will progress with the backcrossing that will likely occur among the RES, hybrid redears, and male bluegills. It could easily after 4-8 yrs produce some fish that look and reproduce a lot like bluegill. Time will tell the rest of this story.

Good info Bill, that's exciting having the BRES hybrids. Wonder if they are pellet training?

I could eliminate the RES in this pond, and make it BG/YP only, not a big sacrifice. I'd prefer having ZERO reproduction from anything with high fecundity.

At least some of the hybrid RES are eating pellets which is how I noticed they were present. This summer I plan to sample them by angling. It should prove interesting to see what they look like and the variation that they display.

If you use just male BG and YP then the bluntnose and spotfin type of shiner should do real well. If you need weed and FA control add papershells which when abundant will produce moderate turbidity. YP at 9"-10" will readily eat papershell crayfish 2" long and maybe a little bigger.

I think Tony brought something up about this not long ago, about not wanting this cross in his pond and it got me rethinking male bluegill in my pond.

BRES hybrids will be similar to BGSF in that 97% or so of offspring are male according to information EWEST sent me on BRES or RBG hybrids. I don't think you'll have an issue with reproduction according to that recent SMB article by Dave and Bill - YP, SMB and HSB should be able to keep them under control. Bill says he saw that for 10-12 years in one pond. BRES hybrids would be super cool Josh!

No doubt. Just had me thinking/concerned is all.

BGXRES could be 97% male of F1 generation but the succeeding F generations may not be as high of a percentage of males. I think Omaha is right to be concerned. I would only take a few rogue females to cause "trouble". Only way I would not be concerned is if the pond was easily drainable or lent itself for renovation.

"" Bill says he saw that for 10-12 years in one pond."" True but after the 12 years most of the current fish resemble GSF and appear to be prolific. The only benefit to them that I see is they are fairly narrow bodied and larger YP and smallies can eat a lot of those F generation trash. I thought that I caught out all the small type GSF but evidently I missed at least two and their numbers have rebounded. All those trashy GSF that I caught out I hand fed to the pellet trained SMB and two big HSB in the pond.

I would like to learn the fecundity of a BRES hybrid. If they're closer to RES than BG might not have a population issue. I don't know if there's research available on BRES female egg capacity or whether they are multiple spawners. With Joshs' HSB and SMB maybe he could deal with it.

TJ, I can source the banded killifish if you want them. If I have luck trapping, I may even be able to get you some YOY lake chubsuckers. The pond they are in is very steep sided so seining them out is a nightmare. The killifish are very easy to trap in comparison.

The other species I have been experimenting with that I think has a lot of promise is the silvery minnow. In my case the eastern silvery minnow. However, there is a western and Mississippi species of silvery minnow as well. How similar they are I am not sure, but the eastern species does quite well in mud bottomed ponds. How well they do with predation is the bigger question that I am still determining.

Other species I would try to source would be brook silversides, any of the topminnow species found in the Midwest and the Johnny darter. I think any would be a good component in a SMB pond. I wish I could make a trip out to Nebraska, I suspect in the right habitat, many of these species are rather common. They could be collected and transferred to a brood pond for rearing and quarantine.

Thanks T! What are your thoughts on the bluntnose?

Are you planning a new pond? There are some things I think would be beneficial to the long term survival of forage species, in particular species like bluntnose minnows and spotfin shiners. The biggest factor I have seen is extensive shallow areas. People think shallow and immediately think vegetation take over. To prevent this, lay down rock. What more do smallies like anyways? The vegetation isn't going to grow through rock. The rocks provide prime habitat for bluntnose minnows. For both spawning and refuge. If the pond has good areas of shallow, say 6"-18" rocky areas and the bluntnose minnows/spotfin shiners are given a good period of time to spawn unharassed by predators I could see both species doing fine even under SMB predation. As long as the SMB are not allowed to get too overpopulated.

Kenc was nice enough to offer me the use of his fyke net to collect LCS for you. So with the use of it, I may have a better chance at collecting some LCS for you. Just a matter of me figuring out how to ship them to you... They probably would be in the 3"-4" range.

This is good for the SMB forage.

What about a M BG, F YP only pond? Looking for something to help feed during winter in addition to shrimp and maybe some crays. No SMB...just single sex YP and BG. I want to feed the YP.

I would definitely transfer some of your grass shrimp to the pond. I think they are about as high on the list as it comes to feeding both BG and YP. If no SMB are present, just male only BG and female only YP, I would utilize spotfins and bluntnose. Habitat isn't as important as you can closely manage number of fish present as there will be no reproduction. Do not use GSH as they will only compete with them for food. Provide amply spawn sites for both species and they should maintain their numbers. The decline usually occurs when the first year class born in the pond reaches a size where they can readily feed on adults of the forage fish. With no reproduction that will never happen...

Loved reading this and reaffirmed one of the things I'm doing in my pond as it's being built. I'm using a specific arm to keep shallow just for this purpose. I was planning on dumping rock as well as encouraging vegetation and planting at least one root ball. Hoping this will be an area of the pond where we will always see thousands upon thousands of small fish, relatively safe from predators.

I have a shelf for smallmouth spawning beds that leads into this area. My thought is the smallie fry may venture over that way and start gorging themselves right away, as well as seek cover themselves.

As a kid, I occasionally caught a relatively small, shinner-type fish in streams that was locally called a roach. Is this a viable or desirable pond fish in central Indiana? I was thinking forage.

Only thing I found on this was Rutilus rutilus, but this is a species found in Europe.

Roach is a common name for golden shiners in this neck of the woods. My favorite nickname is newlite which is old mountain name for croppie. Yes, it is croppie in Ky. and Tenn.,it is spelled that way and Bill Dance always catchs croppie on his show.

Thanks. I am already planning to stock GSH as forage along with FHM, and BNM if I can catch some. I am still looking for more ideas to diversify the forage without causing problems for SMB that will be stocked later.

I'd also add native species crayfish and grass shrimp. There are other minnow types Cody uses like topminnow that might help diversify further.

There are so many local names for little fish it's hard to say what it is. If you can catch some and take photos, I can ID them for you.

I'll add native crawdads once I get my plants established in the new pond, but they will probably get there on their own in some numbers before I do this. I'd like to add shrimp, but am not sure how source them locally. I'll need to do some netting of plants and see what I find. I will also be catching small fish in our creek when it warms up and will post pictures before releasing them in the new pond. I appreciate you volunteering to ID them!

Fattig fish will ship you Grass Shrimp. They are Pond Boss vendor and I've used them many times with great success. Next day air ship anywhere in the US for $30/flat, at least they used to. Pricing is contingent on order qty. Get vegetation established first to improve chances of establishment.

If no fish are present, I've gotten grass shrimp to establish quite well even with no vegetation present. Now that I'm adding predatory fish it'll be interesting to see if their numbers stay high.

Travis, you may want to think about Florida strain females. In the late eighties they stocked them at Briey Creek. People caught tons of double digets and several over 16 lbs.