Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Small pond for big bluegill/hybrid striped bass

Hey guys! Finished grad school and bought a house with two small ponds. Hoping to get a little advice for managing the two existing 1/3 acre and 1/4 acre ponds on a budget! I will be able to spend around 1800 to 2000 dollars on them this year and really would like to avoid having to drain them and start over-- but i can if that is the only solution. The previous owner stocked the quarter acre pond with bluegill and the 1/3 acre pond with largemouth bass, bluegill and channel catfish. Both ponds were dug to raise foundation around the house and are supposed to be around 15 feet deep at the deepest locations. Around 2 years ago there was a summer fish kill and all of the largemouth bass and a lot of channel catfish in the 1/3 acre pond died. (I think) I have been trying to catch largemouth bass for several days using every bait in the tackle box with no success.
I have been feeding both ponds and there are hundreds of bluegill and at least a hundred 4 inch catfish in the larger 1/3 acre pond. There seem to be green sunfish and bluegill in both ponds. Biggest bluegill are 5-6 inches long with larger than normal eyes and are very thin. I love fried fish but there honestly isnt enough meat on them to be worth cleaning yet. I set out a fish trap today and have caught hundreds of healthy looking 2.5 - 3 inch bluegill. Is there any hope that these old 5-6 inch fish will fill out and grow a little more?

So I believe the problem is a bluegill overpopulation issue? I took out about a gallons worth (literally hundreds) of the 2-3 inch sunfish today to freeze for catfish bait later. Should I be removing every catfish I take out as well?
I hope to use the smallest pond as a grow out pond for hybrid striped bass. Just want to get things a little more balanced before I add more fish to the problem. My goal is to raise the biggest bluegill possible and to be able to have as many hybrid striped bass as I can as well. I have plenty of time to feed, catch and remove fish and do not have to have channel catfish in either ponds. Any and all advice is greatly appreciated!! I will post pictures soon and will keep y'all updated on the progress.

""I have been feeding both ponds and there are hundreds of bluegill and at least a hundred 4 inch catfish in the larger 1/3 acre pond.""

Are you sure that the hundred 4" catfish are truly channel catfish or are they bullheads?

Do you have an estimate of the ratio of bluegill (BG) to sunfish (GSF)?

The other thing you need to do is to actually measure the maximum depth in both ponds. Even if you have to float out there on something (thick styrofoam sheets) or barrels when the water warms.

Welcome, fellow member of the SEC. I can only conclude that the lack of response to your question is rooted in continued resentment of our conference's success by the majority of those on the forum, who eminate from the Big Whatever or somewhere in Non A&M Texas.

Now that we've got that out of the way.....

You've got a number of options, but before we go there, what are your goals? I know you said "big bluegills" and "grow out HSB", but expand on that a bit so we can give you more specifica advice.
Do you want fish for eating?
Fish for kids?
What kind of fishing do you want to do, what kinds of fish do you want to avoid, what is your ideal situation-for each of your individual pond, and for your fishery as a whole.

Welcome to the forum Lsutgrfan!

Let's see:

Wants big BG....
Relatively small BOW...
Available to feed.....
Desires HSB...
Likes to eat BG....

I know what I'm thinking, but it's too early to throw it out there without some more info. I agree with the others, you need a better idea of what you have now in the way of fish, and pond depths. Are either of these ponds fed by another water source?

Hold on there, he said they were only 5"-6" inches and skinny-if you drop them, they'll probably just bounce, rather than immediately go into the "Spark Plug Spasm of Death".

I unable to get exact depth at the moment due to lack of boat and weather but will bring a canoe to check it out in the next week or so.
They are channel catfish I caught a few and all had characteristic markings. Assuming there must be larger catfish present as well but thus far unable to catch or bring any to surface with feed. I believe that most of the small sunfish are bluegill. Possibly fifteen to one of what i think are green sunfish. Both ponds are filled with rainwater and the larger pond is at a lower elevation and has an overflow grate. The larger pond also has a fountain aeration system which i am considering replacing with a better system and moving it to smaller pond. I removed well over ten pounds of small <3 inch sunfish today with a trap from the larger pond. (weighed out ten and caught approx another 2 pounds but didnt weigh due to rain. Last time i checked the trap this afternoon i was still catching just as many as when I checked it the first time this am.
Should I worry about removing too many small fish at this point?

So what I would like to be able to do is grow large bluegill and be able to eat some of the smaller ones while trying to let bigger ones grow. Possibly even trying to sex them in order to release males. I was thinking of using hybrid striped bass in the place of largemouths as a predator fish. And being able to remove them as they grow to a size where they would start eating the bigger bluegill. Is that realistic?
I have read different views several places and received lots of different stocking advice. One hatchery even recommended stocking 1000 2 inch hybrid striped bass... Lol.
Thanks in advance for the feedback! Will work on getting pictures posted soon.

Ouch!!! That hurt both of my feelings Yolk......

At the risk of putting the cart before the horse, I'll chime in with my opinion and say keep removing the BG. Two of the fundamental principles applied to growing big BG advocate controlling their numbers, and getting enough food into them. Also, HSB will probably have a very difficult time controlling a population of native BG. But first, I would concentrate on finding out what kind of depth you have to work with.

IMO HSB and BG are an excellent combination for a small pond if a goal is large BG. Reasons; smaller mouth on HSB and no problem with LMB reproduction. Sounds like you are getting CC reproduction which is not a good thing. With the amount of BG sounds like no LMB are still there. You will need to get good size HSB, 6-8 inch or better 8-10 inch. With that much natural food you will be shocked how quick they grow, and they are fun to catch.

Bill I worry about the HSB ability to keep recruitment of native BG under control...especially where a feeding program is implemented.

Now HBG.....that's another story, and the direction I was going to suggest he consider. (once the particulars are known)

Checked trap again today and had fewer small sunfish from overnight. Prob only about a Pound or so. Also should have mentioned earlier that I moved 65 of the 5-6 inch bluegill to the bigger pond from the smaller one last week. And the last two days the larger sunfish in the bigger pond aren't feeding very well anymore.
Still lots of 5-6 inch sunfish feeding in smaller pond.

As far as the channel cats go I don't care if I have them in the pond or not. Can try to start removing them now. They are way too small to be worth eating and hate to waste the fish but I will if its necessary.

I was attempting to catch as many of the bigger 5+ inch fish out of the smaller pond as possible and transferring them to the bigger pond to grow out. if I removed enough of them I could probably save some money and buy smaller hsb to grow out.

Pictures are not loading onto site from my iPhone. Will load them later this week on my pc when we get Internet hooked up.

Provide a link to the pictures and we can look at them there. I would do some homework and price a rotenone treatment for the 0.25 ac pond. Its maximum and average depth will be helpful for calculating amount of rotenone needed. The cost of that should fit into your budget amount noted above.

Terrible misunderstanding!
You have mistaken admiration for derision, let me make myself clearer.

I have dropped many BG over the years, both accidently and on purpose, but have never before observed the Spark Plug Spasm of Death. I can only conclude that this phenomenon occurs in HBG due to an inherent flaw in these fish which results from the addition of genetic defects from the Green Sunfish lineage. You know, kind of like the hemophilia that plagued the Romanovs. Lots of inbreeding in that bunch, too, and we know how Green Sunfish feel about their cousins, not to mention their brothers and sisters.

Anyway, your experience has led me to many ideas involving Green Sunfish, gravity, and death. I am currently working on an addition to Newtons Universal Law of Gravitation. I've got the mass part down, and I'm ok with the inverse of the distance squared, but I'm having trouble figuring out the Constant of Death for Green Sunfish.

Were the heck is Theo when you need him?

First, let me apologize to Lsutgrfan, for the disturbing direction taken by his seemingly innocent query. I would like to say that this sort of thing doesn't happen around here very often........ That's what I'd like to say, but having had the neccesity of always telling the truth firmly planted into my psyche, (as well as my backside) when younger, I will refrain from doing so. Never fear though, it'll all work out in the roof....including some good advice from folks who know what they're talking about. Hang tight.

Now...on to business. Yolk, I appreciate your reference to the Romanovs'....I too tend to think of HBG in a royal light, so we share common ground there. As far as the difficulty you've encountered with your theory, I suggest approaching the problem from another vector.

I fear you've overlooked the obvious.... that being that the fish in question was in a weakened condition. Consider this: I stocked adult RES at the same time I stocked that fish. Yet I have neither caught, nor even seen one, in the time since. In light of this, there can be only one conclusion: My HBG have killed and eaten the RES. I submit that the consumption of so much inferior genetic material played havoc with the fish's immune system, contributing to his being susceptible to injury sustained in a fall.

When I caught that fish, he had a crudely fashioned necklace around his head, and dangling on it were the opercular tabs from five or six RES....I didn't give it much thought at the time, the HBG's penchant for being extremely aggressive yet having questionable taste in fashion being well known... it seemed perfectly normal.

So you see that once all the evidence is taken into consideration, it plainly shows that there's not a genetic weakness inherent to HBG, rather it's a case of hyper-aggression and displayed dominance over all other lepomids that will lead to their eventual demise. These fish may need counseling if they are to survive, but they are actually quite tolerant of being dropped. So in conclusion, I regret to inform you that there is no Constant of Death where HBG are concerned. I hope you haven't spent all the grant money.

See if you can get/borrow a big seine net and run it through and report (with pics ) what you find. You need to know what is there in order to plan how you get where you want to go.

Get the photobucket ap on your iphone load the pics on it.. Click on the pic in your photobucket album hit the little "i" icon tap the "IMG" link copy to the forum waalaa you have pics on the forum..

Also consider starting over.. You can get both ponds on the right track from the beginning your budget of $1000/pond would work.. And I think it'll be better to start over rather than wasting your time with what you have now (which you don't even know exactly what you have and if you kill and start over you know exactly)..

PS- you could have to totally different species in each pond..

Starting over in LA with a spring (Apr) stocking of mid sized BG (3"-5") and HSB 6"-8" with pellet feeding you could easily have 7"-9" BG and 12"-13" HSB by November. Continuing to the end of 2014 the BG could be 8.5"-10" and HSB could be 15"-18" depending on conditions. Sound good? Then start over at least in one of the ponds.

I would start em both over, short term and longterm results would indeed be better and recommendations would be more specific....but if you choose to not start over, the plan is also still simple, but does require more work on your part.

Here is how I would pull it off to achieve your goal---I would pick the pond you want the hybrid striped bass into and I would not remove the smaller bluegill from it, but rather keep the 2-4's and remove the worthless 4-6 inchers.... I would wage war against those 4-6 inchers until you got em all. Also take out all of the smaller catfish from that pond as well. then in the spring simply stock 50 hybrid striped bass fingerlings and feed them aquamax 500 or cargill 4.0 milimeter food. The entire year of 2013 should focus on that plan for the hybrid striped bass pond...just be aware that the hsb will get smart on you if you sit there and catch them all day long when they are young and dumb....

for the other pond if you choose to not start it over, I would stock 50 pellet trained largemouth bass 5-8" or bigger. feed them, but only remove the bluegills 6 inch or bigger for 2013. also remove the catfish.

Get that done and then lets talk about hybrid bluegills and additional game plan for 2014 based on your observations of spending time with the ponds in 2013, but yet still getting closer to your goal...

get fishin, find those fish and dont forget to get those depths as well....

Well now I'm confused. I was under the impression that HSB would not successfully control native BG numbers on their own. And factoring in what I imagine might be an extended BG spawning period in Louisiana, and a feeding program to take the edge off the HSB hunger...it seems problematic to me.

Have I missed something?

In normal #s and sizes HSB will not control BG in the south with or without feeding. With small ponds man can easily be the predator/balancer. HSB will eat smaller BG but BG over 6 inches are mostly safe from HSB predation. Does that help ?

Check your water quality first. Low alkalinity is not good for HSB.

Use the upper pond for HSB/BG if that is a choice. Do not stock LMB above the HSB (ie LMB in the upper and HSB in the lower).

If you stock enough HSB they will hammer the small BG, but they are definately limited by there Gape. So I few LMB in the mix to work on mid sized Gil's would be needed IMHO..

Thanks ewest, I think I understand what you're saying....that being that he's going to need to manually remove BG, even with HSB present, if he hopes to prevent the BG from overrunning his pond? Assuming that they are stocked together in the same BOW?

If BG and LMB are frequently stocked together at a 10:1 ratio, is there a ratio of BG to HSB that would approximate the same results? Would the number of HSB required to eliminate manually removing BG be feasible for a small BOW where optimal growth of the BG was the goal? Or is it a case of the HSB never being able to control a southern population of native BG?

Great advice Ewest and great question sparkplug...smaller bodies of water like 1/4 acre basically can be manipulated with ease so throw conventional stocking ratios out the window.... with some direction, and a summer of getting his feet wet the louisianan will have them ponds whooped into shape and ready for some additional fish to stock....

even with low alkalinity I would still throw 50 hsb in there as an experiment just to see and know for sure for myself that they wont make it....

Here are a few pictures of what I'm seeing so far.

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a522...zps53521380.jpg

Wow that BG makes me wanna cry.. They will look like these some day..

To me, it looks like a mix of coppernose bluegill(CNBG), and Hybrid bluegill(HBG), with some green sunfish(or degraded HBG)....some of the bluegill appear to show northern characteristics as well. Quite the mix.

If there's no other BOW that feeds into the ponds,(that would reintroduce undesired species), then starting over is looking more attractive all the time.

I would still verify depth first.

Those are some nice bluegill! Is the one in the middle a coppermose? I agree that they may be interbreeding. I've also caught a few that are a little over seven inches and fat that I'd like to call a redear sunfish but they do not have any red coloration around their gill flap. Will take more pictures as I catch them. They have been feeding much less due to the cold weather. (31 degrees is COLD down here haha)

Rotenone looks like it would definitely be affordable. Hate to do that but the idea of having hsb and bluegill that large sounds pretty good.

The more I read about coppermose bluegill the more I like the sound of adding them and a few res with the hsb. I was thinking of emptying out 1/4 acre pond using rotenone wait a month or two then adding about 100 -150 hsb fingerlings and 300 coppermose bluegill and 75 res. Then I could give the bluegill in the 1/3 acre pond a little more of a chance to grow out. If i can continue to remove every small < 5 inch sunfish i catch and all the cc i catch that should give them enough space to fatten up a bit. After about 3 months or so catch as many fish out of 1/3 Acre pond as possible then rotenone, wait a month and start transferring about half the hsb res and cnbg from the smaller pond to it. I can even attempt to select for male cnbg and res only.

How does that plan sound? I know moving that many fish by catching them would be a little work but I have plenty of willing volunteers to fish and help .

ewest,
What is the lower limit on alkalinity for HSB?

Be aware that the HSB stockers will not eat very big BG (3.5"-5")until the HSB are larger (16"-19") in 2-3 yrs after stocking. So the task of removing lots of BG will continue for several years if not longer. The bigger fish that you think are RES are probably large HBG.

HSB can be used two ways: 1. higher numbers / acre for better predation and likely slower growth rate of HSB - depending; 2. fewer HSB/ac and faster growth, but often less predation impact depending on density of HSB.

You've got alot of options man.. Either way I think you should atleast start one pond from scratch if its not fed by a outside source introducing unwanted species..

Those are all Northern BG coppernose will not live this far north..

Sounds like you are planning to have the same thing in each pond. If I had two small ponds like that, I would tend to go with totally different fish in each one. For example pond one=LMB and BG thus creating a trophy BG pond, and pond two= HSB, SMB and YP.

Me too except one pond would be more of a exotic set up.. YP, WE, NP some odd mix

EW reply

sprkplug

If BG and LMB are frequently stocked together at a 10:1 ratio (new info suggests 20+ to 1 in the south) , is there a ratio of BG to HSB that would approximate the same results? IMO no. Because over time the BG will reproduce and the HSB will not. One successful spawn by the BG will put you out of balance. Would the number of HSB required to eliminate manually removing BG be feasible for a small BOW where optimal growth of the BG was the goal? A good question to which I don't have a good answer. Feeding is also a wild card as it would be needed for both to meet that goal. Or is it a case of the HSB never being able to control a southern population of native BG? "Never" is a word I try to avoid. Certainly very high #s of HSB could control BG probably but at what cost. I don't like to have stressed fish (to many HSB to the point of skin and bones just to control another species) I prefer other approaches HSB and HBG with some minnows/small forage. Single sex populations or alternative predators. BTW I think you woud have the same results (BG stunting) in Northern ponds but have no experience actually doing that.



djstauder

What is the lower limit on alkalinity for HSB?
IMO 20 ppm but higher is much better as it reduces stress. They can do ok a little lower (16 ppm) but stress from combined high water temps and low alkalinity is not good. Add ag lime.

N8ly

even with low alkalinity I would still throw 50 hsb in there as an experiment just to see and know for sure for myself that they wont make it.... I don't assume they won't make it I just add ag lime to have better less stressed HSB and to avoid the risk of loss.

Lsutgrfan You have CNBG , GSF , HBG and way to many fish and not enough food. Go get some out. If you want a pure HSB/BG pond you will likely need to start over and do so in the top pond. May need ag lime.

Thanks ewest!

Lsutgrfan - note that some here (above posts) have noted that CNBG will not survive in ponds too far north. You are in LA and CNBG will do okay for you. The other fish mentioned as options were YP-yellow perch, WE-walleye, and NP-northern pike and these fish are not options for you. They prefer cooler water. Main species for you to consider are CNBG, regular BG, HBG, HSB, and varieties of LMB SMB in proper combination with other forage species is an experimental option in LA to see how well they would survive and reproduce. Golden shiner is a forage species in your options. YOu should test your alkalinity to see if it needs lime for good fish production. Test kit from aquarium store will give you a good idea of your alkalinity.

Do HSB deter BG from eating at the feeder, thus reducing the BG's ability to grow to their max?

I was kind of thinking that YP might not work. Sorry for that example. However, with his first post saying that he wants HSB and a trophy BG pond, wouldn't it be easiest to separate these two and have one in each pond and forget about the idea of one pond being a growout pond for the HSB?

Sparkie, there are two fundamental flaws in your reasoning, but it is a pleasure to engage you in debate after enduring the puerile rantings of the GSA for so long. However, I am going to hold my response for a later time and different thread. This one is filled with excellent [on topic] information and doesn't deserve be further corrupted.

Agreed. Poor Lsutgrfan is probably wondering what he's got himself into as it is......

I await the appropriate time and place for your analysis and subsequent dissimulation of my theory........

Forgot to add RES and CC. There are a couple other uncommon fish that he could stock, but in Lsutgrfan's case he should be able to produce a very good fishery with the most commonly stocked species for his area. Remember keeping the fishery combination simple will make it easier to manage until he develops some 'fish squeezing' experience.

Thanks for all the feedback!! I will check depths and alkalinity this weekend and reply with results. To date have removed 20 pounds of <5inch sunfish and one small cc from the 1/3 acre pond. Cold weather shut down feeding activity so will resume trapping as soon as water warms again.

Of the sunfish photos posted, this one is a longear or perhaps a dollar sunfish. Without other photos, hard to say for sure.

Travis, what do you see that leads you in that direction? Always interested in the varying interpretations of species identification.

looks like a Native to me..

Body shape was the first thing that caught my attention. Also, the coloration is different. Look at the fins, no orange or white edging where it would be in even an immature GSF of that size. There is no black spot at the base of the soft dorsal fin area like there is in GSF and BG. Also, the patterning of the spot dots on the sides is different as well at the coloration on the gill flap. The eye shape is also different in the species.

Caught a bullhead today in larger pond. Looks like I will have to drain it and rotenone as well. If I catch a bigger one are bullhead catfish good to eat?

I find bullheads quite tasty. I do think water quality plays a role, however.

Too bad the picture of the 'catfish/bullhead' did not include a view of the tail. To me without seeing the tail it looks a lot like a channel catfish? did you notice if the tail was rounded or deeply forked?

I don't see a photo?

Tail was flat almost rectangular not forked like a cc. Had a much larger mouth than cc as well.

Definately a bullhead then.


I'm with N8ly on his recommendations about starting over.

Now I see a photo....that's weird.

Okay for bullhead. That is what I suspected - bullheads when the pond tells you there are lots of little ones 3"-5" long. That can happen with CC if no bass are in the pond but it is rare. Bullheads seem to be more prolific in pond settings compared to CC.

I thought younger channel cats had more visible spots and lighter whiskers?

I'm pretty sure N8 just copied off me

Small CC don't always have spots and lighter whiskers. Often they do but color and spots will often depend on the habitat where the CC are living.

Good to know Bill

The channel cats are about the same size. The few I've caught seen to have fewer spots than I would've expected but still a few. Will check alkalinity tomorrow. The test kit I picked up at the aquarium store also tests nitrate and ammonia levels. Is it something y'all usually test for as well?

Nitrate is very rarely ever a problem in ponds for causing problems for the fish. Fish can tolerate a lot of nitrate before they get seriously stressed. Nitrite is a different concern and will affect fish at a lot lower concentrations compared to nitrate. Ammonia in most sportfish ponds is usually not a problem. Ammonia in many 'regular' fish ponds is conveted to nitrite and/or readily absorbed by the plants - primarily phytoplankon or submerged types whichever is most abundant.

Took a Kyak out into the ponds this weekend to get average depth. The smaller pond ranges from approx 5-5 1/2feet except for one hole that drops off suddenly that is approximately a 8'x4' wide and 9 1/2 feet deep. The larger pond is approximately 6 feet deep all around. Both ponds slope to the deepest average depth within 7 or so yards of bank.

PH of both ponds is 6.4

From what I've read hsb prefer a higher ph so I will likely need to add ag lime. - The larger pond is however at a low elevation on the property and has a drain system that seems to be in use more often than not so I assume liming more often will be necessary.

Any opinions on using larger gravel lime (like that used for driveways) to use to keep ph down over longer periods of time?

I read about Bruce Condello's HSB pond with over 2500 lb's/acre and its got me thinking about digging a bigger pond. Ha

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=11135&page=2

Also should have given an update on fish. I have continued to trap small 2-3" fish and removed all I can every few days. Have removed at least one and a half 5 gallon buckets worth from larger pond. Bluegill have fattened up a little. The coppernose bluegill are not very aggressive feeders and will not try to compete with CC. My hybrid sunfish/green sunfish mutts are definitely more aggressive but they will also eat much less after the CC start to feed each day.

The channel catfish are growing like weeds. They have grown an average of approx 1 1/2 to 2 inches in the month Ive been feeding. By late april/may when it is time to drain ponds I expect the cc will be plenty big enough to fry whole or possibly even filet.