Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations So, after reading the articles on Walleye

It seems I was sold WAAAAYYY to many WE for out 0.6 acre pond. We were sold about 24 of them, and 26 YP, and 40 BC.

Should I pull out some of the WE ASAP? I would think I should be around 6-10 of them to have a healthy fishery of my size.

If I do need to catch and release somewhere else (neighbor would LOVE some) what is the best way to catch small WE (4-5 inchers) without damaging them too much? I don't have a net, not ability to use a shock boat. Thinking what lures to use, and will ice-fishing gain me a WE or two?

Your post got me to thinking, what if all the worlds problems were like so many here on PB? "Darn, I really need to go fishing today. What lures will I use." I know your question is serious and I don't have the answers, but it still seems like a nice problem to have. DH just rolls his eyes when I say "Gotta go fishin', keep the pond in balance".

Best of luck with catching some WE.
CMM

Lsquid - I don't see your problem as too many WE but too few forage fish. IMO as adult fish species, you have three species of predators of small fish. YP and BCP(BC) typically do not eat lots of small fish until they are adults when their main diet is often small fish. However as smaller individuals YP-BCP diet consists mainly of invertebrates with small fish as secondary items depending on the forage base.

My main questions for you is what soft rayed forage fish are also in the pond and how long were they in the pond before the WE,YP,BCP were stocked. I don't recall your pond background.

WE vs LMB as Predators. IMO, which does not match that of some fish management people, WE despite what some may think, is not any more of an aggressive fish predator or consumer of fish compared to LMB. I think these two have different behaviors of preying on fish with LMB being a more aggressive of a predator compared to WE. I also suspect that WE tend to eat a higher percentage of fish in their diet compared to LMB who tend to be more opportunisitic predators. This is possibly where WE get their reputation for being "intense" predators aka "wolves of the water", "eating machines", "nasty cannibals". I think a well fed pond raised LMB will gain more weight per year compared to a pond reared WE. This would definately depend on the available food items. Also LMB will typicaly have more individuals (biomass) per acre than a non reproducing population of WE so the LMB population will consume more pounds of fish compared to a constant number of walleye/ac. So if this is true, then a LMB will need to eat more food (fish) per year compared to a WE. WE are a more nocturnal predator compared to LMB so they tend to hunt at different times of the day. Your 24 WE in 0.6 ac equates to 40 WE/ac. If we were using LMB as the predator many "experts" would suggest 50-100/acre. You are well below the standard LMB stocking rate. Another important factor is LMB would be reproducing and annually adding predators to the system; your WE will not normally recruit more WE, and if they do, the number/ac will not come anywhere close to the normal recruitment rate of LMB.

I think your reference number of 6 to 10 WE was derived from fish communities where WE were secondary predators or considered as a bonus fish as an additional fish in a mixed fish community usually containing LMB and maybe SMB, CC or HSB. I think when WE are the main, dominant, or single top predator your stocking rate of 40/ac is in or on the low range.

I repeat, my main concern is what smaller forage minnows are present to provide food for good top end growth of the YP and BCP? They will need an abundant supply of smaller (1"-2") minnows to achieve good growth rates and have good numbers of YP-BCP adults in the pond for an annual harvest (15-30fish) from 0.6ac. I assume you plan to harvest YP & BCP?. Thus to grow well from the 6"-7" size there will need to be lots of minnows or very few YP-BCP for growth to be best or even good.

With a mixed number of BCP, I'm not sure that 24 WE will be enough to keep the BCP numbers adequately controlled. You may have to manually selectively harvest smaller BCP because I think the WE will select to eat more small YP per year compared to BCP. Plus since YP are more fusiform compared to BCP,, WE will definately eat many more 2nd and 3rd year YP compared to eating 2nd & 3rd yr BCP. IMO There are enough WE to control the YP, but I have my doubts about WE controlling BCP. I have no experience with this WE-BCP fish combination, but I know lots about the YP-WE fisheries.

Thanks Bill!
That is a relief. I missed the part where the WE numbers were for bonus fish, not top predators. I plan on stocking the WE as they are caught to maintain their numbers artificially.

I stocked 5lbs of fathead minnows very early this spring, stocked remaining fish late this fall. Literally millions of FHM right now, but nowhere near mature enough for spawning. Several age classes of FHM swimming about.

I was thinking about waiting another year for the FHM to mature more, but based on them being eaten quickly and that I have some cover in the pond that may stretch out that time, I didn't see much point to waiting longer.

I was thinking of tossing in some golden shiners as a means to keep the BCP herds thinned and providing food for the WE that they can get into their mouths more readily than the BCP. I just would also like to encourage the perch to multiply which I understand is the best forage for WE so the Goldens may be counter-productive.

My main reason for not going the LMB is I like frogs. Weird, I know.

As far as the BCP numbers go, that has been a constant worry, but have been assured by several local people that BCP just don't do that well around here. I can get no straight answer as to why. One pond owner who has about a 3 acre pond as been putting BCP in every year, and cannot get a stable population. He also has LMB that are probably nailing them before they can do anything though, but they should have taken when he first stocked, but did not. His water type is almost identical to mine except the pond is about 10 years old.

Here are a few more comments about your fishery.
Your pond will be a good learning experience to see the relationship of BCP, YP, and Walleye. Keep us advised on your pond experiences as time passes. It will be good to see if the BCP become abundant in your pond.
Not a lot of literature is available about WE as the main predator because WE are most often used as the secondary predator or bonus fish . Several members here are now using WE as the main predator in ponds. WE reportedly rarely get larger than 5 lbs (23.0”) by those that have used them for pond stocking. That data includes the maintaining WE in ODNR hatchery ponds. From what I’ve observed so far, it seems the more you stock per acre the smaller their average top end size. This general rule also often is true for other predators in ponds where the predators rely solely on natural foods; largemouth bass is a good example.
I do not expect the FHM to last very long when your panfish, even if it is only the YP, get mature and start recruiting annual year classes.Adding golden shiners (GS) would be a good idea for the long term forage supply to provide small shiner forage items for the YP and BCP to keep them growing. GS are usually able to maintain a natural breeding population in many lakes. WE would likely eat some of the adult breeder shiners. If you start seeing numerous small thin bodied YP and or BCP 3”-5” long consider adding more WE or manually thin out those smaller individuals. GS are a bad idea if you plan to use small live baits to fish for YP and BCP. Large 5”-8” shiners are pesky and aggravating when angling with small live baits such as worms, spikes, mousies (mousees) and wax worms.
Consider locating some bluntnose minnows (BNM). Get them in before the FHM are depleted. Note they are hard to source from fish farms. BNM spawn very similar to FHM. BNM should be common in the NY streams and natural lakes. See page 6 of: http://www.lgfa.org/baitfishofny.pdf
More reading about BNM
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111210192224AAmv4Wf.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1577/1548-8659(1932)62%5B290%3ACMSATC%5D2.0.CO%3B2
BNM readily enter wire minnow traps. Some local bait shops near you may have BNM if the shops collect their own minnows from streams or lakes. You would probably have to sort through some fish to get several BNM. You would not need a lot of them for stocking to get the population started in your pond without bass and while the FHM are still common to abundant. If some moderate amount of habitat/cover is present, I find that the BNM survive predation by YP and WE much better compared to FHM. BNM appear to be faster swimmers compared to FHM. BNM is often the most abundant minnow in many central and eastern lakes with mixed fisheries where it survives predation. Full grown BNM males will be 4.0-4.4” compared to 3” for most top sized FHM.

Thanks Bill,

Much to digest! I will be giving the BNMs a try as well as some creek chubs which may or may not do well, they will likely make it into my pond sooner or later anyhow when I have good overflow. I like the idea of diversity at the start to see what "sticks". I used to catch BNMs by the zillions when I was a kid at a creek where a flood made a large pool.

I will be sinking another Christmas tree in a few days, then taking some Grey Dogwood bundles down to provide spawning areas for the YP and cover for the minnows which will be difficult for larger fish to get through. I have Grey Dogwood coming out of my ears from lack of mowing areas for 10 years, and experience shows it rots very slow for such slender limbs.

Further reading suggests that what I thought were BNM may have been longnose dace.

Dogwood branches make good spawning substrate for YP.; bad part is the fine branches fairly quickly deteriorate and then fine structure lasts only a year or two even when the cut branches are out of the water. Consider tying rope to the bundles to remove and replace occassionally. I cut some new dogwood branches for spawning each year. The two+ year old stuff is about worthless for having small twigs that YP seem to prefer when releasing and draping their egg strands.

Longnose dace are supposedly common in NY streams. Dace are mostly specialized stream spawners and it's doubtful will reproduce in your pond. BNM have a rounder snout and more distinct individual looking scales on the back between the dorsal fin and the head compared to Bknose dace. Look to distinguish those features. It is easy to recognize the difference when you know what features to look for. About 20-50 BNM will be enough for breeders if you get them in this spring before their spawning time at water temps of 68F.

Wow, how about a big hand for all the great Bill Cody (Dr. Perca, in the immortal words of Cecil Baird?) info in this thread.

One small tidbit on the dogwood branch bundles. In one study we did, we found that periphyton (attached algae) - free woody structure was apparently selected by yellow perch when they had a choice. Don't get me wrong -- we know very well that yellow perch will spawn on long-submerged structures that do have algae growing on them. However, at least in that one study, they sure spawned a lot more egg masses on the newly submerged, periphyton-free, deciduous trees and branches.

Dave:

With that said, when should the woody structure be placed in the pond? And subsequently removed.

I have placed 15 foot long trees in the pond and there was egg strands on them within a week. The trees still had green leaves on them also after the week.

Scott, again, I am not sure it matters that much. . They will use what they can find. In an ideal world, I would say deciduous trees or branch bundles, put in a week before they spawn, and take out after the eggs hatch. :-)

Blair -- same thing for me. When we put in a fresh Christmas tree with full needles, it can have eggs on it within a day!! Timing is everything.

My experiences match those of Dr. Willis regarding tree branch substrates for YP spawning. The less algae on the branches the more eggs strands that the branches tend to collect. Typically my branches are placed in a week or two after ice out. In Ohio this is in early to mid March and tree twigs still have just buds and are not leafed out. Those same branches are removed after eggs hatch which for me is in late April. I have never used fresh evergreen branches. I patrol the branches every day or two and remove the egg strands as a way to reduce the chances of overpopulation of YP. There always seems to be some egg strands that are laid in deeper water that I miss removing and those provide ample hatchling YP each year. But if you want lots of small YP to feed predators no need to remove egg strands.

I'll go cut some branches now to have them when the time is right. With the water levels fluctuating so much in the ponds around here, as of right now the areas that had branches last year would be above water this year.

Thanks for all of the great info! I could never extract this out of information at hand. What a great site!

Here are the topics in five articles from Pond Boss Magazine about raising WE in ponds:
Mar-Apr 1999: WALLEYE TOO COSTLY TO CULTURE. 1 pg. Elmer Hedlund describes the cool water nature of walleye and yellow perch, difficulty of pellet training walleye, inefficiency of raising minnows to feed predators and his feeding fatheads to WE, food conversion of perch fed pellets,

Mar-Apr 2003: WALLEYE IN A SMALL POND PRESENT A MAJOR CHALLENGE. Bill Cody describes walleye benefits, stocking basics, pond reproduction success, adaptability to pond conditions, growth in ponds, completion of other sport fish, beneficial cover, lists several growth rates, feeding behavior, details of proper forage size and density, predators per acre, WE as the only predator, benefits of no recruitment, and numbers management of adult WE for ponds.

Jan-Feb 2004: KNOW YOUR POND LIFE (NYPL) – Walleye. Short article by B.Lusk of basic info about walleye. Discusses coloration, distribution, spawning, foods of fry and adults, preferred pond habitat, pond reproduction.

Jan-Feb 2005: WALLEYES IN NORTHERN PONDS? Dr. Willis presents basic info of reproduction and recruitment in ponds, foraging habits, growth and success when stocking at high and low densities, use as a bonus fish, supplemental stocking densities, plus includes a standard weight chart.

Sep-Oct 2005: WHY WALLEYE? Mark Cornwell discusses preferred water temps, eye structure and ability feed at low light, spawning temps and locations, stocking sizes, pond raising of fry & stocker sizes, when to stock fingerlings, use in stocking primarily larger ponds (8-10 ac), use moderation in stocking, preferred habitat and WE feeding locations in a less used niche, preferred prey, prey size, growth rate to age 4, quality of fillets,

Additional thoughts for this thread.
Lsquid noted: "I stocked 5 lbs of fathead minnows very early this spring, stocked remaining fish late this fall. Literally millions of FHM right now, but nowhere near mature enough for spawning. Several age classes of FHM swimming about."
The high numbers of small immature FHM after a full summer of spawning is pretty typical in new ponds especially those not fertilized nor with pellet feeding. FHM will
quickly overpopulate a pond without predation. The rapidly increasing numbers of FHM tend to overpopulate the natual food source and as a result the later hatches have slow growth due to lack of food and too many new FHM recruits. The abundance of small FHM will be very good food for the fingerling sport fish.

Since I assume that you stocked primarily fingerling sized YP, BCP and 4"-5" WE this fall, your fathead numbers should stay abundant ffor 2013 and 2014 because there will not be a lot of predation pressure from 26 perch, 40 crappie and 24 walleye. It is doubtful the YP and BCP will spawn in spring of 2013. However a few of the YP could spawn this spring (2013) if some of the larger ones (the females) you purchased were big enough (5"+) to develop some eggs this fall. YP start developing eggs typically in August-Sept. I'm not sure when BCP begin egg development.

All your stocker fish should grow very well until their first spawn becomes mature and is ready to spawn. Near that time you should see major declines in the numbers of FHM. The first spawn by YP and or BCP will likely result in lots of offspring survivors due to the abundant food supply of fatheads. Be watchful of the numbers of recruits from the first spawn as they could be very abundant and will need some reduction of numbers. Trapping is a very good way to catch numerous small YP & BCP. If your traps have ¼” mesh, the traps will also be good at sampling the adult FHM so you have an idea of their density. Gee Minnow traps painted dark colors work good, even at water temps of 40-45F, for catching small fish in my ponds. Larger homemade traps with 1/2"-3/4 mesh work good for catching the larger panfish YP-BCP) and occassionally some walleye. I think the WE enter the traps seeking the entraped minnows.

Liquidsquid - What were the sizes of the YP and BCP that you stocked?
If you can keep the numbers of new recruits of YP & BCP reduced and maintain decent numbers of forage food items, the growth rates will continue to remain good for all age classes of your fish. Fish balance of numbers is key to maintaining a quality fishery. Record keeping and sampling by angling and trapping will allow you to monitor the overall numbers and sizes of your fish. Keep us advised at time passes. I will be interested in hearing about how the forage fish community develops and if you get BCP spawns.

Squeezing this in-between meetings...
The perch were 3-4-5" groups, The Walleye were 4-5" and the BC were also 4-5". They wont be eating each other any time soon.

The FHM various size classes is good to know as I assumed that I had hit biomass ceilings based on nutrient input to the pond being low. Fish growth rates are of less import to me than keeping the water attractive for swimming, so I don't mind not hitting optimal rates.

That is a great idea of coloring the trap, I believe mine is 1/4" and works well if left out for a long time.

I was assuming that the BC will decimate the YP offspring pretty quickly, but I am not familiar with BC at all (one of the reasons I wanted them). BBL...

For stocking those YP 3"-4.5" and BCP at 4"-5" this fall I doubt very much they will spawn in 2013. Although I have measured YP at 3.7" long with eggs so you could feasably have a small YP spawn in 2014. In late fall of 2013 expect to see YP in the 6"-8.5" range and a definate YP strong spawn in spring of 2014. I don't know much about crappie growth and spawning.

Just as a side-note: I have gained back almost 30" of water in two weeks after a solid couple of snow storms, and I can see the FHM all handing about the unfrozen water coming into the pond finding tidbits to eat. Probably Blackfly larva and other things getting washed into the pond. Its good to see though as I know I have good O2 in areas of the pond.

What I would really like to know is where my fancy goldfish went. Probably in the stomach of a heron or something. I put three of those fat double-finned guys in there for fun, just to see if I could spot them throughout the year, but once put in, they were never seen again. At some point the WE will likely eat the poor buggers...

Not expecting a YP spawn at all this year, but it doesn't hurt to put a little brush in there just in case.

Again thanks for all of your wonderful information! It will be interesting to see how my puddle pans out in the fishing arena. I wanted something different than a bass pond, which everyone around me has.