Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Need some Serious Help!!

OK guys Its been FOREVER since I have been on here...
Hope everyone is doing well and had a Good Christmas.


Big issue here:

The Biggest issue of all, my 9.5 acre lake is WAY WAY down!! It is about 2 acres in size down from 9.5 acres when full. I have had Major Major issue with water shed and keeping this pond full for a VERY long time!! For almost 10 years now... Form 2008 through 2010. The pond stayed full!
Now its about 2 acres and about 12 feet down...

I am trying to figure what it would take or how much Pumping equipment it would take to fill this lake from near by Stream. If someone could help me. I would greatly appriciate it.


Thanks for any advice or help that you offer.

Hi there. Check out this recent thread. In it Tums talks about the well he drilled. I am sure if he sees this, he will let you know. Of course you are thinking of pulling it from a srteam, but this might be an option if that doesn't come thru. Lots of folks here talked about their ponds drying up this year..........Jim

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=315047&page=1

WoW! That's a lot of water missing!

Maybe it might be a good idea to have a professional do an "On Site" evaluation.

How about Greg Grimes?

In the area, and a professional! Good Choice!

I know Greg Grime REAL Well.

Give him a call.

Welcome back!

Do you (or have you noticed) a leak at the dam?

How low is the pond from full pool? With that info, I can give you a very rough idea on how many gallons you would need to pump. But, that figure wouldn't take into consideration any leakage from the pond.

Just remember that pumping from the stream might allow some live critters from the stream to enter the pond. How they'd make it thru the pump unscathed, I don't know, but just wanted to bring up that possibility.

Second the motion on calling Greg Grimes. Is there any chance that what you're seeing is part of the dry year? You mention the watershed being an issue - how is the water supply throughout the watershed? Is it inconsistent in terms of the available water? Are other water sources in the same watershed experiencing low levels? Is there any chance a spring is located inside your lake and you are seeing the reverse flow that can happen with springs? Remember springs giveth and also taketh away as the water table drops.

Just a few thoughts and questions to add to the deliberations.

Wow now that you mention it! There ARE some springs under the pond I am quite SURE! This is one of the reason why I think I might need to drain the pond then Fill it in with good clay to seal it off... I Have had this lake for 10 years now and I don't think it should be this low.... even as bad as the drought is..

The lake is 9.5 acres and it is down a say about 10 to 12 feet.

Well the Lake is about 10 years old... When we had good rain in 2009 and 2010 the lake was full going through the stand pipe ! But now the lake is about 10 to 12 feet down!!

But My 2 acre lake is FULL!! I built it on another water shed on the property to help supplement this lake with extra water shed. I built it 6 years ago

May be worth investigating that angle. Springs can become siphons when the water table is low.

Todd3138,


By cover these springs do I cut off my water supply to the pond?

If you plug off the springs in your pond, you will loose that as a potential water source, unless you can figure out a way to externally tap into them. Pumps may be required then.

As JKB said, yes, you'd likely lose them if you covered them over effectively enough. But, they may not be the only or even a primary water source for your pond. If you have streams that flow into it, those are likely a significant water source. If not, the springs may be the biggest supply, but at the same time, if they've never really done the job well enough to keep all 9.5 acres full all the time, then you may not be losing as much as you think. How is your surface drainage for the pond? Is it a larger watershed? Was the pond designed at that size in light of your available watershed? Typically, I believe those sorts of calculations are done to include only surface runoff, not input from springs, though that is certainly not an area in which I have experience beyond my time here on the forum.

I have pondered the idea of excavating a spring down several feet, then running pipe up and away from the pond under the seal through PVC pipe to a level higher than the normal water-line. Fill the spring-hole with gravel and then cap with some good sealing materials. If the spring water-pressure is higher than the water level, it will flow out of the end of the pipe above the water line. If lower when the water table drops, you will only loose water in the pipe. I see this method having no worries about pressure from the spring blowing a clay seal when there is a lot of difference between spring pressure and water in the pond.

Of course that means being able to excavate the spring when the pond is dry, but that is something people could do when digging a new pond and they find a spring.

Nothing to add here. I agree that if there are springs feeding the pond that are below the high water level, that's most likely where the water went.

You could pump more water into the pond than what will seep out thru the springs, but at what price? Plus, the pumps would most likely have to be running continually unless they were really, really big and could pump a tremendous GPM.

Hate to see you problem there Big Pond. Sounds like to me your are in the drought zone that runs all the way back into my area. I only have 1 pond that works off water shed and that is my 3 AC pond (est 22' max depth) that also had covered a couple small sprihgs and no upland water to direct into the pond. Like yours it was full and running out in 2009 into 2010. When we went into a drought faze in Mid 2010 I chose to drain it not long there after. I reworked the bottom again in 2011 / 2012 to make sure I stopped any new leaks as best I could. I had run into this very same problem in the past when drought times would kick in and I put in a high volume well first. I live in an area that is less than 200' above sea level and have alot of underground water. Many years ago when I had your same problem I dug an 8" well 220' deep. I have a 10 HP pump that was originally measured to pump right at 438 GPM (well over 600,000 gallons per day). I have only the well hooked to this electric meter so I can get a serveral cents per KWH break as agricultural useage only. Back in the day I was losing about 1"+ water per day during summer drought. Now I am losing alot less and when I get rain I do not have to even run the well. The same well today would cost you about 15K.
All that takes me to the long road of what I am saying. Basically you have 2 things to do to get out of this problem with a full pond. That is dig a well or rework the pond and hope mother nature provides enough water to cover any loss (in my case I have done both even though the well worked fine by itself). Both in my opinion require getting someone that can help you figure out where you are at and what you need to do. A good pond man (some have mentioned Mr grimes for example) can come out and look at your situation and tell you are really even leaking that bad. Dropping 12' fot your situation in drought times may even possibly be normal and all you would need to do is get a well / water specialist in to tell you what you can do on that end to keep the pond full.
Me personally I chose to go with the high flow well and came back a few years later and reworked the pond at my convienance.

Also to give you an idea on what the well cost to operate to pump to keep your pond full I can tell you this. 1 acre foot of water (326,000 us gal) cost me between $12 to $13 in electric bill. If your whole pond was down 12' over 9.5 acres (over estimation since your leakage is probably more at full pull and you pond should have a slope) and if that is how much water you would have had to pump to keep it full. That would come out around 114 acre water foot. It would take me probably between $1400 to $1500 to pump that much water. That is one of the reasons why I chose the well route first and to rework later at my convienance.

As a side note Along the way I discovered that I can constantly pump 68+ degree water into my pond and extend my fish growing time when my other ponds are cold. Also I can jump start that pond early in the spring when I see the cold weather is coming to an end by pumping in a bunch of warm water. The high volume well gives me alot of advantages others do not have. Several times over the years I have just opened a valve to drain the 3 ac pond. It is something easy to do when you know for about $500 to 700 (depending on the rain you get while filling up).

In the end you are getting sound advice to have someone come out and look to help you make the proper decisions. Also do not be suprised it you get an answer telling you to maybe do both.

Hey Tum's,
Can you post more detailed info about your rig?

I am into energy efficiency, and am interested in the 438 GPM rig.

Please, if you will, include all the Nut's -N- Bolt's that you know are factual.

I am out for holidays posting from A phone now. When I get back Wed. I will post best as I can with detail from my office. For now it is 220 system. 200 amp meter w/ 200 amp box. Wire run underground from there to pump station. Main lever box at station wired into fuse box for lightining
protecttion at well. 8" casing 220' deep. Will see if I can ge t pump model when I get back to office. Scedule 160 4" pipe from pump to surface around 200' . Water only around 10' below surface keeps some of the head pressure down. Mounted at surface on 1" steel free floating plate to allow for give where hits 90 degree turn

Lol getting ill with phone will continue Wed. Sorry for delay. Btw the pump uses right around 250 kwh per day at 9.5 cents per kwh.

Tums,

This is Excellent help and advice!!

I went out there again today and did some scoping around for a couple of hours.. Here are some observations.

1. As I have said before I have 2 lakes... The 9.5 acre lake looks like a disaster while the 2 acre pond is beautifully full to over flowing.

2. When I go to the back of the dam at the very bottom where the stand pipe comes out of the back the old creek channel has about 1/4 inch of
and inch of slow moving water maybe 1/8 of an inch. But for all the ponds I have seen this seems to be on a lot of ponds!

3. When I built this pond 9 to 10 years ago... It seemed like there was some steady flow of water going in the pond.... Now I don't see this could the be drought?


4. There is A lot to picking a lake sight for a LARGE lake. More than just looking where I could put a dam to back up water. It seems the flatter the forest floor is and and lower the dam is the better chance you have at the lake filling up...

5. Tums mentioned a High volume Well and also a Pump. But is't there a risk to a Well pump in that you could drill the well and not get the amount of GPM you want... Isn't this hit or miss really?

6. If what I said is true above, am I better off just pumping out of a near by high volume stream? There is a LARGE stream about 200 yard from the Back of the dam. The dam is 35 feet high, could I pump this water this far?


Thank so much for the responses. I have been battling this for a decade now and am about to just sale the place and start over. The only thing with that is getting a new project permitted by the Core of Engineers.

Lets put it this way... If I could pay 15,000.00 To put in a 450 GPM well and KNOW that it would put out this much water... I would do it in a HEART BEAT!!! and pay the extra 1500.00 in electric bill to run it!! That would be a DEAL for me!!

bp, I am involved in a similar situation as you, but on a smaller scale. I bought my place a year ago with a 1/2A dried up pond. I pumped water from a near-by creek, filled it 2/3, and noticed that I had a leak, pumped it dry, and redid the bottom, and will start pumping again soon. This might not be useful, but here's what I did. My small creek is 300' away and 75' up hill. I ran power from house to creek and 1" pvc (too small) back to the pond. I used a 1hp well pump 24/7 for 3.5 months to get to 2/3 full. Thanks to the recent rains, I am about 20% full, and will either use my same set-up or use a 2" trash pump which would fill it much quicker, but require frequent trip to refuel. My point is that you can fill it back from the stream, it will take some time, but is relatively cheap. I'm just waiting for as many winter showers as possible until I start back to pumping. Could you get a huge pump like Tums suggested, and set it up at the creek?

Well I want to get a big pump back there but here is the issue.. Running power back there... I would need to run 220 at 200 amps almost a half a mile!! How much would that cost I wonder..