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I don't know the first thing about cleaning pellets from a tank, but I keep envisioning a system where there's a cone at the bottom of the tank, which then transitions into a vertical piece of pipe.... say 4" dia. x 12' long. This pipe contains two sliding valves, similar to the type that are used on RV septic tanks. These two valves are separated by about 6" within the 12" piece of pipe.

During normal operation, the upper valve is open, while the bottom is closed. When you want to remove the sunken pellets, you would close the upper valve, and open the lower, thereby draining the pellets with very little water loss.

Is this a crazy idea, or is this how it's done and It's been obvious to everyone but me all along....I'm kinda' slow....


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Wouldn't you need some kind of vent for that too work sprkplug..?


I believe in catch and release. I catch then release to the grease..

BG. CSBG. LMB. HSB. RES.

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Going "by the book", I think you would see a vent, or check valve between the two valves...the tank body itself is vented on top of course. However, I have a hard time believing, once the upper valve was closed and the bottom opened.....that the water/spent pellets wouldn't drain out on their own, without a vent present.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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sprkplug, perhaps we're overthinking this. I could be wrong. Regardless of where the waste sits, it's gradually fouling the water...so it might as well be in the base of the cone. One quick turn of the valve, and "whooosh" the waste is out. Losing some of the water that's in the general vicinity is fine because we're exchanging some of the water anyway. smile Hence, it's ok to lose a little of the nearly invisible semi-buoyant waste in the bottom few inches of the cone. If I have the tank enclosed in a small heated chamber...perhaps 8 feet cubed, along with two or three other tanks...the base of the tank could be discharged, by hose from the outside of the heated chamber right into a five gallon bucket. The fresh exchange water could already be sitting in the enclosure, ready to replace the vented water. Five new gallons/day, in each of say, three tanks could take just a minute or two.


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Originally Posted By: JamesBryan
Bruce, IMO what you are doing with the conical bottom makes all the sense in the world.

I currently have an aquarium with pellet trained WE in it. I wish the bottom was conical, and had a drain in it, as it would save me from siphoning debris from the bottom and hauling buckets of water to the aquarium a few times a week.

Go with your hunch, and dont let others cause you to second guess yourself!

You did not become "MR. BLUGILL" from listening to people say "That wont work"!

My only input, is if you do buy the taller tank with the screw off lid and you cut the top off of it, I would use strapping of sorts around the tank to stabilize rigidity.

Popping popcorn and watching closely!

I just re=read what Esshup said about cutting the top....THUMBS UP!


You're right...siphoning is a huge pain in the butt. Often it will freak out the fish, which in turn resuspends the semi-buoyant solids--defeating the purpose. Very inefficient and labor intensive. I know exactly what you mean. Currently in my cubic tank, I'm siphoning on a daily basis. My biggest enemy is fish-spooking. My second biggest enemy is that in a tank that big, I have to roll up my sleeves because they get wet each time.

I laughed at the popping popcorn metaphor. I'm hoping to avoid a bowl full of old maids. laugh


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Originally Posted By: rmedgar
Bruce, I like the sound of this. Any new ideas concerning water circulation and filtration?
I think I'll try something like that this year...


I'm still only doing a mechanical filtration with tube socks. It works marvelously. The water clears quickly, and the socks stink royally, but at least I don't have to rely on nitrifying bacteria. 42 degree water apparently makes for tenuous and unpredictable bacterial colonies. Water replacement is the key. I'm replacing about 5-10 percent of my water each day. The ammonia strips I bought keep telling me that my ammonia levels are in the "safe" range.


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Originally Posted By: ewest
I have to constantly remind myself the importance of acknowledging that we have very few answers and a whole lot to learn. An open mind is essential. That means thinking outside the box that is created in ones mind. Go for it Bruce - I bet the pics will tell the story.


Thanks, ewest. The number one reason I love this site is so many people willing to think of new ideas.

Essentially I'm working off of this premise...

IT IS IMPRACTICAL TO BUY ENOUGH ADULT FISH TO SIGNIFICANTLY ALTER EXISTING PONDS WITH ESTABLISHED APEX PREDATORS.

i.e. If you have a six acre pond with lots of largemouth, and you want to introduce redears, it's expensive to buy enough adults to avoid predation and establish new populations. So we can benefit from creating methodology to raise some of our own "on site". That's where the outdoor cage production, and indoor tank culture become potential tools. My goal is to find ways to make this economical, both in terms of time and money. It's a long process, but I think I'm onto some possibilities. This will make for a good story, I think.


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I love it.. I couldn't think of a better reason to raise fish..


I believe in catch and release. I catch then release to the grease..

BG. CSBG. LMB. HSB. RES.

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Well Bruce,
After waking up this morning, I realized that you really do not have many options available. A cone bottom tank may be your best choice, given the circumstances.

The short ones without the lid would be a better choice.

If you can, try rig up a delicate water jet system to keep the feed suspended. This would be an upflow device. Will it really make a difference with sunfish?

Cone bottom tanks were dismissed many years ago. The initial thought was the conical shape would be an aid in self cleaning. This was proven not to be the case in standard recycle systems. But for feed training in your situation, it makes sense.

I don't know anything about hatching sunfish, and never looked into it.

Would anyone know if it would be beneficial to keep them crowded? keep the tank covered? and with an internal submerged light? Any other beneficial insight?

The coolest feed training rig I saw was from a fish hatchery in Canada. Very successful, but very expensive.

I forgot that you are not going the full blown recycle rout, which makes it a different animal. Not as complicated. Maybe it's just me, but I would rather toss a few bucks at it, rather than a whole bunch of hours.

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Bruce, not sure I understand your straight forward, easily understood, comment/observation about the fish NEVER picking up food that sinks to the bottom. It has been my understanding for a long time that hatcheries generally raise fry on sinking feed. Thus they would be creating a mess and losing $.

I have not reread all 9 pages of this thread to see if you are doing something different.

What am I missing?


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

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The way I understand it now is the tanks are static, not being recycled in a conventional sense. The feed is fed and whatever get's hit on the way down is it. The rest is flushed down the drain with daily water changes.

Seems reasonable to me now. I would think that hatcheries would try to maximize their inputs by different methodologies.

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I don't want to sidetrack this conversation by asking dumb questions, but here goes: If it's a bottom dump system into a bucket, what prevents the sheer force of water exiting the bottom drain from making a huge splashing mess? Perhaps I'm overestimating the force with which the water will exit?

And, since RES are primarily considered bottom feeding sunfish, at what point will they demonstrate this behaviour and eat the feed off the floor of the tank? Or will they ever, in this environment? If they transition to bottom feeding at some time, would a sloped tank make it harder for them to feed?

Sorry for interrupting, please continue knowledgeable participants...I'm learning a lot.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
And, since RES are primarily considered bottom feeding sunfish, at what point will they demonstrate this behaviour and eat the feed off the floor of the tank?


The RES I had in my tank this summer would eat bloodwroms off the bottom of the tank but not pellets. Eating bloodworms off the bottom of the tank noticibly slowed down once the water temps dropped below 55 degrees.



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Originally Posted By: Shorty
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
And, since RES are primarily considered bottom feeding sunfish, at what point will they demonstrate this behaviour and eat the feed off the floor of the tank?


The RES I had in my tank this summer would eat bloodwroms off the bottom of the tank but not pellets. Eating bloodworms off the bottom of the tank noticibly slowed down once the water temps dropped below 55 degrees.


Identical to my observations as well. Not sure why, but blooworms will get scavenged, but never pellets. For a decade I had bluegill in a tank, and the pellets that sank to the bottoom would sit forever--even if the fish were starving. I don't understand this, but have observed. Odd.


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Originally Posted By: JKB
If you can, try rig up a delicate water jet system to keep the feed suspended. This would be an upflow device. Will it really make a difference with sunfish?


Perhaps, but keep in mind that I'm hoping to complete my training of young RES in only 2-4 weeks. After that, it's just a matter of feeding just below what they'll consume. Then the problem is solved. Many fish figure pellets out almost as if by intuition--but redears are much more challenging. Bill Cody has come up with some innovative methods of transitioning the fish to pellets, but I'm not sure I have the time to mash up up bloodworms and mix them with Aquamax. smile


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Originally Posted By: JKB
Would anyone know if it would be beneficial to keep them crowded? keep the tank covered? and with an internal submerged light? Any other beneficial insight?



That's exactly what I'm hoping to do, but haven't discussed yet. By fooling the fish into thinking day and night are inverted, you can get them to eat when you're home from work, and (shhhh, don't tell anybody) you can get them to spawn.


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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
I don't want to sidetrack this conversation by asking dumb questions, but here goes: If it's a bottom dump system into a bucket, what prevents the sheer force of water exiting the bottom drain from making a huge splashing mess?


Good question. I was thinking a plumbing valve. I've used these before at the base of 400 gallon tanks and they worked fine.


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Originally Posted By: Bruce Condello
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
I don't want to sidetrack this conversation by asking dumb questions, but here goes: If it's a bottom dump system into a bucket, what prevents the sheer force of water exiting the bottom drain from making a huge splashing mess?


Good question. I was thinking a plumbing valve. I've used these before at the base of 400 gallon tanks and they worked fine.


I thought you were having a hose to the outside of the building. If thats the case there is no mess under the tank. And you might be closing the valve by the time the water is even getting to the outside bucket.

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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
...and, since RES are primarily considered bottom feeding sunfish, at what point will they demonstrate this behaviour and eat the feed off the floor of the tank? Or will they ever, in this environment? If they transition to bottom feeding at some time, would a sloped tank make it harder for them to feed?


Great question. The point of aquaculture systems is to be able to feed as quickly and predictably as possible. Pelleted feed that is eaten quickly, and either on the surface or during a slow sink is best. That's the behavior you're trying to encourage.

That being said, I thought it was really strange that a redear won't pluck a pellet off the bottom. Weird, but true. I can't even get them to look at it..but if they see a bloodworm, they'll swim nearby, and the localized currents get the bloodworm to sort of "hop" off the bottom because of it's curly shape. Maybe that's a factor, but they will very, very gradually clean the bloodworms off the bottom.


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Originally Posted By: fish n chips
I thought you were having a hose to the outside of the building. If thats the case there is no mess under the tank. And you might be closing the valve by the time the water is even getting to the outside bucket.


Definitely a good thought.


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Ok. I'll ask a dumb question too. What about a shelf that is half way down in the tank where feed will sit on? Would the fish still see this as bottom and not take from it?

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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
I don't want to sidetrack this conversation by asking dumb questions, but here goes: If it's a bottom dump system into a bucket, what prevents the sheer force of water exiting the bottom drain from making a huge splashing mess? Perhaps I'm overestimating the force with which the water will exit?


A ball valve or such at the bottom with a hose attached would do the truck. You can easily throttle a ball valve. Or even a ball valve at the end of the hose. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

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Originally Posted By: fish n chips
Ok. I'll ask a dumb question too. What about a shelf that is half way down in the tank where feed will sit on? Would the fish still see this as bottom and not take from it?


Possibly, but keep in mind that in small semi-closed systems, even a few minutes that feed remains uneaten will start to shift your ammonia levels. Especially if the water is warmer.

We have to differentiate between what fish WILL do, and what we WANT them to do. If a fish can poke around in the tank anytime he wants for a meal, he may be less inclined to agressively take the feed when dropped in the tank. This makes it harder for you to ascertain how much feed is necessary to keep fish growing by observing how much they eat and how agressively they eat it right at the time of introduction.


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Originally Posted By: JKB
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
I don't want to sidetrack this conversation by asking dumb questions, but here goes: If it's a bottom dump system into a bucket, what prevents the sheer force of water exiting the bottom drain from making a huge splashing mess? Perhaps I'm overestimating the force with which the water will exit?


A ball valve or such at the bottom with a hose attached would do the truck. You can easily throttle a ball valve. Or even a ball valve at the end of the hose. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.


Agreed. I think a ball valve is the ticket.


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Originally Posted By: Bruce Condello
Originally Posted By: JKB
Would anyone know if it would be beneficial to keep them crowded? keep the tank covered? and with an internal submerged light? Any other beneficial insight?



That's exactly what I'm hoping to do, but haven't discussed yet. By fooling the fish into thinking day and night are inverted, you can get them to eat when you're home from work, and (shhhh, don't tell anybody) you can get them to spawn.


Have I got the gadget for you. My PLC (programmable logic controller) has 0-10V analog inputs and outputs. With a photocell, I can record a day from outside via analog signals. Phillips makes an analog ballast for fluorescent lights. I can play that back inside any time I want. I can record the entire year if I want. Photoperiod manipulation laugh We've done similar things in office buildings.

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